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mikelv

15+ Year Contributor
566
10
Jun 17, 2006
Columbus, Georgia
Okay, I have a problem that I just can't seem to figure out.

A little background:

I just put the whole car back together and now it has absolutely no power. Here is a list of what I did to the car.

Motor/Trans/Clutch/ect....

Battery Relocation, ECU harness clean-up


I pulled the ECU harness out of the car and made an attempt at a fuse box relocation, but decided against it, so nothing was majorly torn apart. I put the harness in the same way I took it out. Every wire and ground is accounted for an connected.

Next was the battery relocation.

I ran a power distribution block in the trunk with the batter and ran 2-gauge power wire from it into the engine compartment. I also ran a 10 gauge wire from the distro-block to the fuel pump relay. Inside the engine bay, I ran that 2 gauge wire to another distro-block which splits power to the starter, and fuse box wires.

I also ran a ground distro block in the trunk for the fuel pump and negative battery terminal. In the engine bay, I ran a distro block for the ground points on the tranny, manifold, and cross member.

Bran new batter, bran new cables, bran new alternator, starter, ect...everything is bran new.

Now the problem, absolutely no power to the ignition, starter, or anything whatsoever.

So I started with a test light.

The test light works all the way to the fuse box if I start from the battery. It lights up at the alternator fuse but that's it. There is no power to any of the fuses. No power under the dash to the steering column or ignition switch.

Also, if I jump a 12v wire from the battery, I can make whatever I touch work, starter, ignition, ect.... (although the car won't crank if I jump the starter wire, which I'm not sure if it's suppose to or not, just the starter makes noise).
Nothing on the ECU harness has 12v, and it seems I don't get anything past where power goes into the fuse box.

I guess my question is why the heck does nothing work inside the fuse box past the alternator fuse. I was trying to read the schematics from the manual without much luck. When and where do the fuses get their power?

I'm trying to eliminate and narrow down the problem, just can't really know where to go from here.


The car has been sitting outside for over a year, but the fuse box was not overly-exposed to the weather. By visual inspection, nothing looks corroded or damaged. Everything is still very clean. Just wondering if anyone had any ideas, or maybe something I'm missing.


Thanks for any help, guess I'm having a hard time explaining this one!
 
I'm more a a visual person so unless luv2rallye gets on here and reads this I could probably help if you drew something up real quick in paint of how you wired up your battery relocation.

:dsm:
 
the battery in the trunk. you did ground it in the trunk correct? and the ground up front in the engine bay, you grounded that to the frame as well? also are these grounds strong grounds(ie no paint and a good metal support or something/)
 
Check if you connected the battery positive (B+) cables to the proper places on the engine fusebox (for you - from your engine bay power distro-block). Here's pics of my 99gst one. The 1st pic shows the B+ connection to 2 places.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108970&d=1272360385
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108971&d=1272360385

Unbelievable, I can't even believe that I missed something this simple. Instead of having B+ go to both fuse points, I had them both bolted on to the 100A fuse!

But now I have another issue, and I noticed this when I tried to jump the starter. I don't know if it is a power drain, or electrical problem, but the starter will not crank the engine. It just makes a strange winding sound and does not crank.

Bran new battery, cables, wires, grounds, alternator, and starter.

My worries is the flywheel or something binding. But it won't turn the motor at all.

I won't be able to look at it until tomorrow night, but my only idea right now is to check the battery V when cranking to see if there is a drop. But I ran a jumper wire before when I was troubleshooting, and it made the same noise.

My only other idea is a problem with the PTT flywheel. I mean, there is no way that thing could have bolted up backwards or anything, the clutch was installed properly.

Ideas welcome guys thanks for all the help.
 
- Is the starter trying to engage the flywheel or is it just spinning without even trying to engage?

- To test voltage drop (and proper starter voltage) you must measure voltage at the starter, not at the battery while its activated. If the voltage there is 9.6v minimum but the starter doesn't even try to engage the flywheel (just spins only), you may have a bad starter. Autostores are notorious for selling bad "new" alts and starters. Remove it and see if it will engage (gear flys out) on the bench.

- Did you use the proper flywheel? The AWD flywheel is smaller than the FWD one (106 teeth instead of 110). Remove lower bell housing cover and count the teeth.
 
- Is the starter trying to engage the flywheel or is it just spinning without even trying to engage?

- To test voltage drop (and proper starter voltage) you must measure voltage at the starter, not at the battery while its activated. If the voltage there is 9.6v minimum but the starter doesn't even try to engage the flywheel (just spins only), you may have a bad starter. Autostores are notorious for selling bad "new" alts and starters. Remove it and see if it will engage (gear flys out) on the bench.

- Did you use the proper flywheel? The AWD flywheel is smaller than the FWD one (106 teeth instead of 110). Remove lower bell housing cover and count the teeth.

I would be pissed if SBR sold me a FWD flywheel, I didn't count the teeth. (This is for my GSX not GST).



This is a new starter from Mitsu, I learned my lesson a long time ago buying manufactured crap from NAPA.

I will test voltage drop at the starter. It just makes a weird humming noise, so I'm not sure.
 
you did go thru sbr, so... depends on their day and how they are feeling.
+1 ROFL This smiley face doesn't express how funny that is. This isn't vendor feedback but you should make your way over there if they did send you the wrong flywheel.

:dsm:
 
+1 ROFL This smiley face doesn't express how funny that is. This isn't vendor feedback but you should make your way over there if they did send you the wrong flywheel.

:dsm:

I've never had any problems dealing with Mike or any of those guys 1 on 1. I highly doubt this is the case, but you never know. They gave me a great deal on the kit, slave and ring gear included. I have nothing but good things to say about all those guys.

- Is the starter trying to engage the flywheel or is it just spinning without even trying to engage?

Silly question from me but what is the difference between spinning and spinning/engaging. It's making noise, and I haven't pulled it for a bench test yet...but it does sound like it is spinning. Very low pitch, and nothing is cranking. (Cams are not moving at all, motor is not cranking, ect...)

- To test voltage drop (and proper starter voltage) you must measure voltage at the starter, not at the battery while its activated. If the voltage there is 9.6v minimum but the starter doesn't even try to engage the flywheel (just spins only), you may have a bad starter. Autostores are notorious for selling bad "new" alts and starters. Remove it and see if it will engage (gear flys out) on the bench.

I just threw a meter on the starter and it was reading 9.8v and was still making the same noise as previously described. Would this constitute a bad starter? That makes no sense, this is an OEM starter from Mitsubishi with less than 6 months running time, and about 500 miles max.

- Did you use the proper flywheel? The AWD flywheel is smaller than the FWD one (106 teeth instead of 110). Remove lower bell housing cover and count the teeth.

I have three DSM's, I have stats for all them on here so it might seem confusing as to what car I'm talking about, so I apologize for that. This one is for my 97' GSX.

I'm going to pull the starter, bench test it, and then count the teeth on the flywheel and let you know. I've never put power on a starter out of the car, what am I looking for from the gears? Just that they spin? What precautions should I take with this thing, it is going to fly all over the place?!
 
Okay, so I bench tested, (or at least I think so). When I put power to the starter, the gear popped out but did not spin.

When I changed out the starter with another bran new one, it still did the same thing. Once again, 9.8 volts was going to the starter.


Test-
Not sure if I did it correctly, but I grounded the starter with a grounding clip, and put straight 12v to the signal wire. The ground started smoking. But the gear popped out to engage, but didn't spin.

Check all the wires for the starter, if the starter isn't getting 12v to it, it won't start properly.

I thought it was a minimum of 9v to the starter wire? Also, I jumped a straight wire from the battery to the starter signal and it still did the same thing.
 
The starter gear will pop out to make contact with the flywheel. If it sounds like its spinning then the starter isn't engaging or If the flywheel wont move you might have taken all the starter gear teeth off. Most are made of plastic to wear out instead of flywheel. Goodluck!

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk
 
The starter gear will pop out to make contact with the flywheel. If it sounds like its spinning then the starter isn't engaging or If the flywheel wont move you might have taken all the starter gear teeth off. Most are made of plastic to wear out instead of flywheel. Goodluck!

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

If you had a FWD flywheel on there instead of an AWD flywheel, would the starter not engage the flywheel?

In other words would I have the symptoms I'm having now? Starter winds, motor doesn't crank, bench test shows the starter popping out, but nothing cranks?

The gears on the starter are fine, same with the ring gear, it's just not cranking the engine.

Oh, and also, what the heck is a good way to count the teeth on the flywheel? I mean with everything bolted in, ect...it's almost impossible to crank the pulley, and try and count individual teeth. Any good tricks?
 
Silly question from me but what is the difference between spinning and spinning/engaging. It's making noise, and I haven't pulled it for a bench test yet...but it does sound like it is spinning. Very low pitch, and nothing is cranking. (Cams are not moving at all, motor is not cranking, ect...)

Engaging has one definate loud clunk when the starter gear (bendix) throws out (on it's shaft) and engages (intermeshes) with the flywheel teeth. It sounds like it's not engaging then since you say it whines (spins) but the engine doesn't crank.

So the starter is either spinning without throwing it's gear out (bad starter or too low voltage or battery charge insufficient) or it is throwing it's gear out but it's not reaching the flywheel due to the flywheel or starter being wrong one (mismatched).

I just threw a meter on the starter and it was reading 9.8v and was still making the same noise as previously described. Would this constitute a bad starter? That makes no sense, this is an OEM starter from Mitsubishi with less than 6 months running time, and about 500 miles max.

You mean this starter operated before on this car then?
9.8v on a starter that's not even engaged is way too low (might be why it's not engaging). The 9.6v minimum spec I mentioned is for an engaged and engine cranking situation. Sounds like a voltage/cable/battery problem to me. What is the battery voltage while starting? If 12v than you are dropping 2.2v just over the battery to starter cable! Way too much (should be < 0.2v). Clean connections on both starter cable ends or replace cables. And battery negative cable should go under a starter mounting bolt.
If battery voltage is close to your 9.8v while starting then you have a weak battery.

I'm going to pull the starter, bench test it, and then count the teeth on the flywheel and let you know. I've never put power on a starter out of the car, what am I looking for from the gears? Just that they spin? What precautions should I take with this thing, it is going to fly all over the place?!
Hold off on this until you do the previous voltage checks.
 
From what I have been reading, would this be correct?

It's seems that it would be physically impossible to bolt up a transfer case with a FWD flywheel. I mean, I had no issues with the transfer case. I mean since the AWD flywheel is smaller, you can mix that up with a FWD, but not the other way around, it's just to big. Or is it??
 
Engaging has one definate loud clunk when the starter gear (bendix) throws out (on it's shaft) and engages (intermeshes) with the flywheel teeth. It sounds like it's not engaging then since you say it whines (spins) but the engine doesn't crank.

So the starter is either spinning without throwing it's gear out (bad starter or too low voltage or battery charge insufficient) or it is throwing it's gear out but it's not reaching the flywheel due to the flywheel or starter being wrong one (mismatched).



You mean this starter operated before on this car then?
9.8v on a starter that's not even engaged is way too low (might be why it's not engaging). The 9.6v minimum spec I mentioned is for an engaged and engine cranking situation. Sounds like a voltage/cable/battery problem to me. What is the battery voltage while starting? If 12v than you are dropping 2.2v just over the battery to starter cable! Way too much (should be < 0.2v). Clean connections on both starter cable ends or replace cables. And battery negative cable should go under a starter mounting bolt.
If battery voltage is close to your 9.8v while starting then you have a weak battery.


Hold off on this until you do the previous voltage checks.


I think I found the problem from what you've just written, I highlighted the text.



I did a battery relocation for this car, in the trunk so the negative terminal on the battery was grounded off the frame in the trunk. The ground that was on the transmission was not on a starter bolt, it was on the transmission-to-engine block bolt just above the starter. I think I failed to realize that the starter was using this ground. I will check it out and let you know.
 
Test-
Not sure if I did it correctly, but I grounded the starter with a grounding clip, and put straight 12v to the signal wire. The ground started smoking. But the gear popped out to engage, but didn't spin.
You put a negative jumper cable on the starter casing. Then put a positive jumper cable on the large stud (where the battery positive cable would go). Then to activate connect a wire from the starter signal pin (where the black-yellow wire would go) to the positive jumper cable. You should have no smoke and the gear should pop out AND spin.
 
The ground that was on the transmission was not on a starter bolt, it was on the transmission-to-engine block bolt just above the starter. I think I failed to realize that the starter was using this ground. I will check it out and let you know.
That should still work but just not as well. Either starter bolt is fine (which doubles as a transmission-to-engine block bolt). I doubt that is your problem however. 99% of these low voltage starter problems are the battery/starter cables teminals are not making good enough connection (or cable has too much internal resistance due to age or breakage). They have to be perfectly clean against a perfectly clean surface. Even 0.1 ohms resistance with a 50 amp starter current draw drops 5 volts! And initial surge of 100 amps drops 10 volts which won't even engage the starter.
 
the ground is fine in your trunk. just make sure the negative cables up front are grounded on a good location, and if you want to be safe, you can get a grounding strap, and use it on a starter bolt to the frame, but it's not nessecary.
 
That should still work but just not as well. Either starter bolt is fine (which doubles as a transmission-to-engine block bolt). I doubt that is your problem however. 99% of these low voltage starter problems are the battery/starter cables teminals are not making good enough connection (or cable has too much internal resistance due to age or breakage). They have to be perfectly clean against a perfectly clean surface. Even 0.1 ohms resistance with a 50 amp starter current draw drops 5 volts! And initial surge of 100 amps drops 10 volts which won't even engage the starter.

Man, I have all bran new stinger 2 gauge wires, bran new distribution blocks, bran new grounds, and I made sure I sanded all the paint off the frame and grounded the wires. The battery ground is on the frame....using the rear seat belt bolt....that ground goes to a distribution block, which distributes 2 grounds: One to the fuel pump, the other to the negative battery cable. The ground in the engine compartment goes from the tranny block to the frame. Also the engine block is grounded to the cross member, and the intake manifold has a ground to the frame. All those wires are bran new, with bran new leads.

I even replaced the alternator white wires with bran new leads and 8 gauge power wire. I will attach a picture of how I have it set up. The positive of the battery has a 2 gauge wire that runs from the terminal straight to the engine compartment, approx. 8 feet long, running along side the passenger side door, and through the firewall, in the same spot as the wiring harness...then attaches to a distribution block, which delivers power to the starter and fuse box respectively. The starter signal gains it's connection from the wiring harness as it always has.

When I test the voltage at the battery, it reads 12v....then when I test it at the distro-block in the engine compartment, it reads the same 12v.

The starter signal wire reads 9.6'ish on start up.
 
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