My Crower Valvesprings failed

BigBeans · Aug 12, 2010

After a recent valvetrain failure, my machinist tore down the head and determined the cause to be valve float.

At approx 4,000rpm, the aggressive ramp rates of Kelford 272 cams floated oversized valves into the pistons and damaged a very expensive, fully worked head.

The cause of this premature float was the Crower springs (with Ti retainers). When the tension was measured, some were LESS THAN STOCK.

They have 10k miles on them, and were twisted to 7700 with HKS 264/272 cams. The larger (heavier) intake valves hit the pistons while driving to the dyno shop after the cam install, never exceeding 4,000 RPM.

So, going from an HKS 264 intake cam to a Kelford 272 brought the threshold for float down by 3700rpm.

I knew the springs would be a bit light, but i wasn't planning to rev to the moon, and thought it would be fine with a conservative redline.

Maybe i got a defective set of springs or something, but in my experience, these springs clearly are shit, and because the parts and machine work to fix this will be $1500+, i will never buy a product from Crower again, and feel that everyone should be aware of my experience with their piss poor quality valvesprings, so hopefully this doesn't happen to anyone else.

GSXSixteenG · Aug 12, 2010

BigBeans said:
After a recent valvetrain failure, my machinist tore down the head and determined the cause to be valve float.

At approx 4,000rpm, the aggressive ramp rates of Kelford 272 cams floated oversized valves into the pistons and damaged a very expensive, fully worked head.

The cause of this premature float was the Crower springs (with Ti retainers). When the tension was measured, some were LESS THAN STOCK.

They have 10k miles on them, and were twisted to 7700 with HKS 264/272 cams. The larger (heavier) intake valves hit the pistons while driving to the dyno shop after the cam install, never exceeding 4,000 RPM.

So, going from an HKS 264 intake cam to a Kelford 272 brought the threshold for float down by 3700rpm.

I knew the springs would be a bit light, but i wasn't planning to rev to the moon, and thought it would be fine with a conservative redline.

Maybe i got a defective set of springs or something, but in my experience, these springs clearly are shit, and because the parts and machine work to fix this will be $1500+, i will never buy a product from Crower again, and feel that everyone should be aware of my experience with their piss poor quality valvesprings, so hopefully this doesn't happen to anyone else.

Have you talked to anyone at Crower, I'm curious where they stand on this situation. Live and die by kiggly. :thumb:

BogusSVO · Aug 12, 2010

what part number? what are the specs?

what is your head thickness?

what installed height were they set when new and at what seat pressure?
what was the installed height and pressure were they when removed?

Zex4g63 · Aug 12, 2010

Are these Crower or Brian Crower?

BigBeans · Aug 12, 2010

For clarification, these are Crower, NOT Brian Crower.

BogusSVO said:
what part number? what are the specs?

what is your head thickness?

what installed height were they set when new and at what seat pressure?
what was the installed height and pressure were they when removed?

Spring number 68190
Retainer number 87095

O.D./I.D. .1051/0.785
Open Pressure 1.600=59# 1.560=70#
Seat Pressure 1.100=190# 1.000=220#
Coil Bind .910
Wire Diameter .164

As for the head thickness, i don't have a number in front of me. I can find out if need be, but the head has only been resurfaced, never "milled down". While it is relevant to the actual contact, it doesn't change the spring issue.

I have no idea the installed height and pressure when new. The head was done by a shop in Florida years ago, and there's no way i can get that information now.

After the failure, I dropped the head off at a very reputable shop a few hours from me fully assembled, and told them to do their thing, and specifically requested that they check installed valve height. They said installed valve height was perfect. I didn't ask about installed spring height. They probably measured it, but we never discussed it. I was more concerned with the fact that the tension was so low. Most of the springs were about stock tension, give or take a few lbs, which means they lost, on average, about 15% of their tension (assuming they met spec when new) over the course of 10,000 miles.

If you'd like, i'll ship them to you when i pick up the head in 2 weeks. I know you've built dozens of 4G63s, so you can inspect them personally if you'd like.

LiquidX · Aug 12, 2010

Were the springs new or used when you got them? I saw you posted 10k miles is when the failure happened.

BIGBLAZE79 · Aug 12, 2010

So I'm about to swap the stock valve springs and retainers out with brian Crower springs and retainers I used previously on a head. There wasn't any shims or anything under the springs when I removed them from my bad head. Should I have them checked before installing them on my new head? They ran fine to 7.5 - 8K RPM with FP2 cams on my other head.

Oliver@Slowboy · Aug 12, 2010

Zex4g63 said:
Are these Crower or Brian Crower?

PN he gave below your post is a Crower PN not BC. I have never had an issue with Crower stuff, you might call them and inquire about any warranty they may or may not have.

-Oliver

BigBeans · Aug 12, 2010

BIGBLAZE79 said:
So I'm about to swap the stock valve springs and retainers out with brian Crower springs and retainers I used previously on a head. There wasn't any shims or anything under the springs when I removed them from my bad head. Should I have them checked before installing them on my new head? They ran fine to 7.5 - 8K RPM with FP2 cams on my other head.

These are completely different springs.

Oliver@Slowboy said:
PN he gave below your post is a Crower PN not BC. I have never had an issue with Crower stuff, you might call them and inquire about any warranty they may or may not have.

-Oliver

They were purchased years ago, i could call them, but i don't have the receipt so i think i'd be wasting my time.

andy4g63 · Aug 12, 2010

OP, that is entirely your fault... Nobody said,that is OK to use Kelfords with single springs, unless they are Kiggly's beehives...
Sorry for your loss, but if you paid enough attention you should,ve known better...
FP allways were sayng: anything form FP2X or bigger, use Supertech dual springs, now we have the have the beehive springs which weight less and more effective...
And the Kelfords in terms of lift and duration are extremely agressive cams coming close to what we commonly know as 288's/advertised... That 272 labeling is just probably made on purpose to deceive people and for purpose of saying//Oooh our 272 is the best one out there/........

It does not matter how high you will rev the motor. Itis the profile of the cam, ramp rate and some other stuff which I don't even understand.. It pays sometimes to wait an hour to talk to Robert/FP... No one can't explain better, than him.

Oliver@Slowboy · Aug 12, 2010

BigBeans said:
They were purchased years ago, i could call them, but i don't have the receipt so i think i'd be wasting my time.

This changes things, yes you are probably right you would be wasting time. Racing Axis makes a great set of dual springs that can be had for a reasonable price. PM me if you are interested.

-Oliver

BogusSVO · Aug 12, 2010

sorry about the bad luck

ask the shop if they found any shims other than stock under the springs.
also ask them to measure the head thickness , from VC rail to HG surface

New thickness is 5.200
mitsu allows for a combined total of .007 from head and block
AREA allow for .015 from the head for a min thickness of 5.185

Just beacuse the tip height was perfect, in no ways mean the spring installed height was correct.
tip height can be brought to perfect by tipping the tip of the valve
when this is done, the spring installed height can be off or loose

now looking at the specs of the springs.

Spring number 68190
Retainer number 87095

O.D./I.D. .1051/0.785
Open Pressure 1.600=59# 1.560=70#
Seat Pressure 1.100=190# 1.000=220#
Coil Bind .910
Wire Diameter .164

and the SBI stock replacemnets
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341209-4g63t-valve-spring-info.html
Part Number #160-1280

Free length 1.910
O.D. 1.110
I.D. .754
Wire size .145x.178

Closed position
pressure & Length (intalled specs)
[email protected] Valve closed

Open position
Pressure & length Valve Open
[email protected]

solid height
1.100

if you look the crowers are about the same as stock
the crowers install at 70lbs @1.560 and the SBI install at 66lbs @ 1.575
I can see 4lbs diffrence in .015 installed height

now open

the crowers have 220lbs @1.00 and the SBI 160lbs @ 1.240

yes it apperes that the crowers can handle more lift than the SBI

but when you run the math to bring the SBI to the 1.00 of the crower

.240/.015 =16 then 16 x 4lbs =64 then 64 + 160=224

you see that the crowers are just stock replacemnt springs.

It dose seem that all can agree that the Kelford Cams ave a very aggressive ramp rate.

so more than the valve float, the springs were just not matched properly to the cam, and did not have near enough tention open or closed to keep the follower in contact with the cam

its not so much that the spring failed, but the springs were improperly matched to the cam.
I an sure that with smaller cams of a stock or less agressive grind the crower springs would have had a much longer life.

I would you recommend either the kiggly or the ferra beehive springs for the Kelford cams.

from looking at the specs, I would pick the ferra springs over the kiggles

the ferra springs are just a touch stiffer than the kiggley springs

the ferra are 342 inch rate when compared to the kiggley at 325 inch rate

also the ferra install a bit taller (.045) than the kiggleys

both will need a step down retainer, or a amount of shims under them to gain the posted installed height

stock installed height is 1.550
so the kiggley will need about .100 under it the ferra will need appox .050

but you installed height should be measured on your head and shimmed according to what it needs.

costas14 · Aug 12, 2010

why would you use crower springs on a built head?

BigBeans · Aug 12, 2010

andy4g63 said:
OP, that is entirely your fault... Nobody said,that is OK to use Kelfords with single springs, unless they are Kiggly's beehives...
Sorry for your loss, but if you paid enough attention you should,ve known better...
FP allways were sayng: anything form FP2X or bigger, use Supertech dual springs, now we have the have the beehive springs which weight less and more effective...
And the Kelfords in terms of lift and duration are extremely agressive cams coming close to what we commonly know as 288's/advertised... That 272 labeling is just probably made on purpose to deceive people and for purpose of saying//Oooh our 272 is the best one out there/........

It does not matter how high you will rev the motor. Itis the profile of the cam, ramp rate and some other stuff which I don't even understand.. It pays sometimes to wait an hour to talk to Robert/FP... No one can't explain better, than him.

I understand that this is my fault. Your post doesn't tell me anything i'm not aware of, however, none of this changes the fact that the springs were significantly under-performing.

costas14 said:
why would you use crower springs on a built head?

Because it was originally a 16G car with 264/272 HKS cams.

BogusSVO said:
sorry about the bad luck

ask the shop if they found any shims other than stock under the springs.
also ask them to measure the head thickness , from VC rail to HG surface

New thickness is 5.200
mitsu allows for a combined total of .007 from head and block
AREA allow for .015 from the head for a min thickness of 5.185

Just beacuse the tip height was perfect, in no ways mean the spring installed height was correct.
tip height can be brought to perfect by tipping the tip of the valve
when this is done, the spring installed height can be off or loose

now looking at the specs of the springs.

Spring number 68190
Retainer number 87095

O.D./I.D. .1051/0.785
Open Pressure 1.600=59# 1.560=70#
Seat Pressure 1.100=190# 1.000=220#
Coil Bind .910
Wire Diameter .164

and the SBI stock replacemnets
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341209-4g63t-valve-spring-info.html
Part Number #160-1280

Free length 1.910
O.D. 1.110
I.D. .754
Wire size .145x.178

Closed position
pressure & Length (intalled specs)
[email protected] Valve closed

Open position
Pressure & length Valve Open
[email protected]

solid height
1.100

if you look the crowers are about the same as stock
the crowers install at 70lbs @1.560 and the SBI install at 66lbs @ 1.575
I can see 4lbs diffrence in .015 installed height

now open

the crowers have 220lbs @1.00 and the SBI 160lbs @ 1.240

yes it apperes that the crowers can handle more lift than the SBI

but when you run the math to bring the SBI to the 1.00 of the crower

.240/.015 =16 then 16 x 4lbs =64 then 64 + 160=224

you see that the crowers are just stock replacemnt springs.

It dose seem that all can agree that the Kelford Cams ave a very aggressive ramp rate.

so more than the valve float, the springs were just not matched properly to the cam, and did not have near enough tention open or closed to keep the follower in contact with the cam

its not so much that the spring failed, but the springs were improperly matched to the cam.
I an sure that with smaller cams of a stock or less agressive grind the crower springs would have had a much longer life.

I would you recommend either the kiggly or the ferra beehive springs for the Kelford cams.

from looking at the specs, I would pick the ferra springs over the kiggles

the ferra springs are just a touch stiffer than the kiggley springs

the ferra are 342 inch rate when compared to the kiggley at 325 inch rate

also the ferra install a bit taller (.045) than the kiggleys

both will need a step down retainer, or a amount of shims under them to gain the posted installed height

stock installed height is 1.550
so the kiggley will need about .100 under it the ferra will need appox .050

but you installed height should be measured on your head and shimmed according to what it needs.

Thanks for a great post.

While they spec out stock, they are certainly advertised as an upgraded spring for mild cams.

Even with the aggressive profile, I wasn't concerned with float at lower RPM, and frankly i didn't think it would be possible at 4k with any decent spring.

Either way, the point remains, Crower springs are crap, and are not an upgrade over stock.

EDIT: They were removed at 1.575, so they were at the proper height.

2gdsm_nc · Aug 12, 2010

Crower spring allows for more cam lift than factory springs will allow, simple as that, not more pressure. A starting point for "their" 280* cams, not for others as stated above of course.

GsXdSmKingGsX · Aug 12, 2010

Thank God you said Crower because I have BC's and was tripping a little bit

nuclearr · Aug 12, 2010

Glad to know about these springs. I have learned a good bit from this thread.

GsXdSmKingGsX said:
Thank God you said Crower because I have BC's and was tripping a little bit

Evidently you have not been keeping up on info regarding BC's springs.

GORBS88 · Aug 12, 2010

BigBeans said:
I understand that this is my fault. Your post doesn't tell me anything i'm not aware of, however, none of this changes the fact that the springs were significantly under-performing.

Because it was originally a 16G car with 264/272 HKS cams.

Thanks for a great post.

While they spec out stock, they are certainly advertised as an upgraded spring for mild cams.

Even with the aggressive profile, I wasn't concerned with float at lower RPM, and frankly i didn't think it would be possible at 4k with any decent spring.

Either way, the point remains, Crower springs are crap, and are not an upgrade over stock.

EDIT: They were removed at 1.575, so they were at the proper height.

So IF they were "originally for a 16G car with 264/272 HKS cams" then HOW is it the springs fault?? They functioned correctly with the "smaller" cams right?

So IF that's the case then the springs are NOT to blame, they DID their job.

PieEyedPiper · Aug 13, 2010

GORBS88 said:
So IF they were "originally for a 16G car with 264/272 HKS cams" then HOW is it the springs fault?? They functioned correctly with the "smaller" cams right?

So IF that's the case then the springs are NOT to blame, they DID their job.

Don't forget that these roughly stock equivalents tested at 15% under. Maybe not the best spring match but still underperforming, nonetheless.

BigBeans · Aug 13, 2010

GORBS88 said:
So IF that's the case then the springs are NOT to blame, they DID their job.

The failure isn't the spring's fault, it's mine. I've said that already. I gambled and lost, it's that simple...but there is still a valuable lesson here for everyone else.

The important thing is, none of this changes the fact that the springs do not perform any better than stock (with the exception of tolerating more lift), despite the fact that they are marketed as a performance spring from all vendors. If a "performance" part can't outperform a stock part, it's garbage.

From Crower:

Crower's new Misubishi/DSM valve springs and titanium retainers are available for the 4G63 Eclipse and Talon applications. The new single valve spring delivers 15% more pressure across the board than the factory part.

15% additional tension? Umm, not according to the math of the machinist ITT, and the real world testing done by my machinist.

Vendor claims:

Crower Springs and Retainers are among some of the best for the 4G63 engines. The retainers and springs fit great every time. The retainers are titanium for super strength and lightweight for high revving applications! This spring and retainer kit works great when your looking to upgrade cams or up the rev's on your 4G63!

They offer tried and true Crower quality and are endlessly stronger than stock.

Super strength for upgraded cams in high revving applications? LOL

So as you already know, my point is, these springs do not have any more tension than stock despite Crower's claims, so do not treat them as a performance upgrade, because they are not. At their best, they are OEM replacements.

defrag010 · Aug 13, 2010

What most people don't realize is that there are only a few companies in the country that actually make valve springs. If I recall correctly, they are: PAC, Isky, and PSI. There might be one more but I can't think of a name right now. PAC is the white box company... meaning they make springs to a company's specs and sends them in a white box. The company then sticks their logo on and sells them. I'd be willing to bet that you have regular ol' PAC chrome silicon springs. I say this because PSI normally caters to nascar/drag springs that are over 300#seat and I'm not aware that Isky sells white box springs. Loss of tension is a long term characteristic of chrome silicon springs with the variable being valve/retainer/lock weight and the profile of the cam. I would never let an engine's mileage get that high with aggressive cams and single CS springs without a freshen/inspection. This is also why it's very important to adhere to the camshaft company's spring recommendation.

Red97Eclipseboy · Aug 13, 2010

Yikes. I have Crower springs with FP2s and I go to 8k 1st through 3rd.

95eclipser · Aug 13, 2010

super tech for the win!!!! sorry for your loss but i deff would have upgraded to a stiffer spring rate when i switch to kelfords. but i know not everyone has the money to do so just saying

TSimage · Aug 13, 2010

BigBeans said:
After a recent valvetrain failure, my machinist tore down the head and determined the cause to be valve float.

At approx 4,000rpm, the aggressive ramp rates of Kelford 272 cams floated oversized valves into the pistons and damaged a very expensive, fully worked head.

The cause of this premature float was the Crower springs (with Ti retainers). When the tension was measured, some were LESS THAN STOCK.

They have 10k miles on them, and were twisted to 7700 with HKS 264/272 cams. The larger (heavier) intake valves hit the pistons while driving to the dyno shop after the cam install, never exceeding 4,000 RPM.

So, going from an HKS 264 intake cam to a Kelford 272 brought the threshold for float down by 3700rpm.

I knew the springs would be a bit light, but i wasn't planning to rev to the moon, and thought it would be fine with a conservative redline.

Maybe i got a defective set of springs or something, but in my experience, these springs clearly are shit, and because the parts and machine work to fix this will be $1500+, i will never buy a product from Crower again, and feel that everyone should be aware of my experience with their piss poor quality valvesprings, so hopefully this doesn't happen to anyone else.

I'm sorry but I HAVE to laugh at you! :tease:

For those of you who are wondering why, feel free to search any thread dealing with higher end springs and or Kelford cams. We told the OP NUMEROUS times that he shouldn't even TRY or THINK about running Kelford 272s on his barely better than stock valve train and he didn't listen.

I believe I also mentioned I'd be waiting for this post to come and I'd be sure to drop by for a great big "I TOLD YOU SO!"

Bravo! :applause:

On a serious note. Many of us, including myself have put down major power using Crower springs and they are a WONDERFUL and RELIABLE product when used within their means... You don't run FP fkin 4 sized cams on a spring that is simply an OEM improvement and expect it to be ok. I've personally ran Crowers with FP3xs and they held fine although I knew that it was stupid and only ran the car as a DD and didn't dare race with them. On a side ntoe I have taken FP3s and FP2s over 9K.

BRIAN Crowers can be crap. But the Crower labled springs are a GREAT buy. Just don't be big headed and think you know more than people with experience that tell you the limitations of the setup. You definitely don't have to put your hand in a fire to know its hot but some people, like the OP, have to learn the hard way.

The OPs thinking and logic failed much sooner than the springs ever did.

GsXdSmKingGsX said:
Thank God you said Crower because I have BC's and was tripping a little bit

You're sorry out of luck my friend. Crower products are far superior to BCs. You might wanna do a search, make sure you're in a comfortable chair though LOL

.

BigBeans · Aug 14, 2010

95eclipser said:
super tech for the win!!!! sorry for your loss but i deff would have upgraded to a stiffer spring rate when i switch to kelfords. but i know not everyone has the money to do so just saying

I normally play it safe with things like this, but i decided to play with fire on this one. It is what it is, i'm not going to dwell on it. Lesson learned, time to move on. I have lots of parts on the way, and my toy will be back in action in 2 weeks or less. :thumb:

defrag010 said:
What most people don't realize is that there are only a few companies in the country that actually make valve springs. If I recall correctly, they are: PAC, Isky, and PSI. There might be one more but I can't think of a name right now. PAC is the white box company... meaning they make springs to a company's specs and sends them in a white box. The company then sticks their logo on and sells them. I'd be willing to bet that you have regular ol' PAC chrome silicon springs. I say this because PSI normally caters to nascar/drag springs that are over 300#seat and I'm not aware that Isky sells white box springs. Loss of tension is a long term characteristic of chrome silicon springs with the variable being valve/retainer/lock weight and the profile of the cam. I would never let an engine's mileage get that high with aggressive cams and single CS springs without a freshen/inspection. This is also why it's very important to adhere to the camshaft company's spring recommendation.

Very true. I've used Comp springs from PAC before (in Chevy motors) and the Ferrea beehive kit i just bought is made by PAC also. The material is called "PAC Alloy" and i don't know exactly what it is, but i know it isn't CS Alloy.

TSimage said:
I'm sorry but I HAVE to laugh at you!

For those of you who are wondering why, feel free to search any thread dealing with higher end springs and or Kelford cams. We told the OP NUMEROUS times that he shouldn't even TRY or THINK about running Kelford 272s on his barely better than stock valve train and he didn't listen.

I believe I also mentioned I'd be waiting for this post to come and I'd be sure to drop by for a great big "I TOLD YOU SO!"

Bravo!

Are you done gloating, or do you feel the need to call all your friends and tell them that you were right, and some guy on the internet was wrong?

The OPs thinking and logic failed much sooner than the springs ever did.

Which i have said multiple times.

The purpose of this thread was not to blame Crower for my loss after pushing limits.

My only intent was to let people know that these springs are no better than OEM, and do not perform in a manner consistent with their marketing.

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My Crower Valvesprings failed

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