PTE 50 Trim Extreme Lag

SOLOR_ECLIPSE · Jul 2, 2010

I Just got the 99 GST back from the shop -

I had them install a new PTE SCM-5031E 50 Trim, 650CC FIC's, and a Walbro 255lph fuel pump..among a few other things. I have my profile up to date with all other supporting mods.

According to the shop, my PTE is only capable of producing 263whp on pump gas. At least that is all they were able to squeeze out of it on the Dyno. That in itself was very disappointing, but even worse, I finally build 19lbs of boost at 5000 rpm
then it drops to 14lbs till 7500. (No Boost Leaks or pre turbo exh leaks)

I am thinking the internal WG is opening too soon and causing this extreme lag.

Perhaps my AEM TruBoost EBC has a feature to keep the WG closed during spool up..that they did not compensate for..

This is my first 50 trim, which i was under the impression was to spool faster than this and be very efficient. My Big16G was producing more HP and boost with less supporting mods -

Any help would be appreciated!

Red97Eclipseboy · Jul 2, 2010

Your shop is half-ass, first of all. A 50trim is capable of way more power than that. I made my current numbers 4 years ago on my E316g @ 17lbs. The shop you took your car to can't tune. Plain & simple. I bet you have a large boost-leak. Who tested it? You? The awesome shop that talks out of their ass?

Time to take your car into your own hands and learn how to tune and build it. Most shops are jokes.

SOLOR_ECLIPSE · Jul 2, 2010

When I asked them if they tested for boost leaks - they said yes... Of course they could have been blowing smoke like most shops tend to do.

Red97Eclipseboy · Jul 2, 2010

SOLOR_ECLIPSE said:
When I asked them if they tested for boost leaks - they said yes... Of course they could have been blowing smoke like most shops tend to do.

Test the car yourself with a bottle of soapy water. Spray it on all couplers, TB, vacuum lines and injector seals. You'll be amazed at what you find.

donniekak · Jul 2, 2010

The fact that it gets 120* out, and we only have 91 octane in az, could be the reason behind a very "safe" tune. I would make sure your wastegate is working properly, and closing all the way.

SOLOR_ECLIPSE · Jul 2, 2010

donniekak said:
The fact that it gets 120* out, and we only have 91 octane in az, could be the reason behind a very "safe" tune. I would make sure your wastegate is working properly, and closing all the way.

Well, we were trying to hit some good numbers first - then resolve to a mild tune for the rest of the summer. We didn't even get that far. They are trying to talk me into an FP green rather than my PTE now.

JusMX141 · Jul 2, 2010

SOLOR_ECLIPSE said:
Well, we were trying to hit some good numbers first - then resolve to a mild tune for the rest of the summer. We didn't even get that far.

You're not making power at 120*f air temps. We dyno'd a buddies 2G at the Shootout a few years ago and the intake air temps were logging around 140*f while the coolant temps were near 225*f (it was very hot and humid outside). That took his peak timing from around 17-18* (where we had it set) to around 10-11* after the ECU corrected for the extreme heat. The result was 296whp on a car that should have made more like 360-370whp.

Ideal power will be made at 65-85* intake air temps and 185-195* coolant temps.

SOLOR_ECLIPSE said:
They are trying to talk me into an FP green rather than my PTE now.

PTE turbos are probably the worst that are available for a DSM (numerous "PTE=FAIL" threads out there) but they're trying to talk you into a turbo with the same compressor wheel and nearly identical turbine wheel specs....so guess how much power it will make? :thumb:

rstchris · Jul 2, 2010

It sounds like you have multiple issues. My PTE 50 trim hits 24psi @3900 rpm and holds rock solid till 8k. There is a setting on the tru-boost to hold the wastegate closed till a predetermined amount of boost. My actuator runs 9psi, so I would set the WG on the AEM to 8-9psi then boost setting 1 to 40+%. Check the wastegate actuator to see if it's being held closed.

SOLOR_ECLIPSE · Jul 2, 2010

jusmx141 said:
You're not making power at 120*f air temps. We dyno'd a buddies 2G at the Shootout a few years ago and the intake air temps were logging around 140*f while the coolant temps were near 225*f (it was very hot and humid outside). That took his peak timing from around 17-18* (where we had it set) to around 10-11* after the ECU corrected for the extreme heat. The result was 296whp on a car that should have made more like 360-370whp.

Ideal power will be made at 65-85* intake air temps and 185-195* coolant temps.

PTE turbos are probably the worst that are available for a DSM (numerous "PTE=FAIL" threads out there) but they're trying to talk you into a turbo with the same compressor wheel and nearly identical turbine wheel specs....so guess how much power it will make?

What I might do then, is just live with my Fail PTE the way it is (after checking the WG and for boost leaks), then when it cools off to the point where you cant fry eggs on your patio...then I'll see where I am at.

Send me some rain out here! :pray:

rstchris said:
It sounds like you have multiple issues. My PTE 50 trim hits 24psi @3900 rpm and holds rock solid till 8k. There is a setting on the tru-boost to hold the wastegate closed till a predetermined amount of boost. My actuator runs 9psi, so I would set the WG on the AEM to 8-9psi then boost setting 1 to 40+%. Check the wastegate actuator to see if it's being held closed.

That's what I was looking for, Thank You!

I am not sure what lb actuator spring came with this from SBR, but I will Download the AEM Tru Boost Manual and get it set. I have a strong feeling they didn't set that aspect of the EBC.

Ok, so on my AEM Tru Boost - They had my WG setting at 1.2. My Boost setting (A) was @ 75%. I adjusted the EBC to 9 on the WG and 35% on boost (A)...No noticeable difference. I don't think the controller is even hooked up correctly.
Either that or the solenoid has malfunctioned. I am going to start with installing a different boost controller and go from there.

crazyquik22023 · Jul 3, 2010

ya i would first do a boost leak test, then check your EBC which is probably hooked up wrong, and just curious what is the a/r of your hotside??

SOLOR_ECLIPSE · Jul 3, 2010

crazyquik22023 said:
ya i would first do a boost leak test, then check your EBC which is probably hooked up wrong, and just curious what is the a/r of your hotside??

Part No. - SCM-5031E

Compressor Wheel Diameter 54mm

Compressor Wheel Inducer - 2.123

Compressor Wheel Exducer 3.000

Wheel Trim 50 Trim

Compressor Cover Inlet 3

Outlet Size 2

Bearing System PTE Race 360 Center Section

Turbine Housing A/R Ratio - .63

Turbine Wheel Style - T31 (Stage III)

Turbine Wheel Inducer 2.559"

Turbine Wheel Exducer 2.229"

Turbine Wheel Trim - 76

Also since I am running BC 280/280 Cams (not degreed) and do not have adj cam gears...that may be contributing to my (top end only) power band.

JusMX141 · Jul 3, 2010

SOLOR_ECLIPSE said:
Also since I am running BC 280/280 Cams (not degreed) and do not have adj cam gears...that may be contributing to my (top end only) power band.

Yikes! That could be the contributing factor to your low power output right there.

TalonDave's BC288's were out 4* on one cam and 2* on the other. Once degreed, the car is very happy making power and idles near stock. BC cams are not a good out-of-the-box camshaft for making power with non-adjustable gears.

eclipse94turbo · Jul 3, 2010

i have had my pte 5030e for 3 years now i did have to get it rebuilt 3 times sence i added a oil line restrictor and went with 10-40 oil instead of 10 30 i was useing and i never had a problem sence.it was geting to much oil pressure and it was smoking after the restrictor it never smoked again and now been holding 24psi which the wastegate is set to for over a year no problems.it hits 24psi around 3700 and drops off to 22 psi by 8k rpm.i make i make 310awhp with a self tune and i dont have many mods.id say you shop sucks if they telling you you can only make 236 wheel hp out that turbo there capable to 460whp.something is wrong with your car is its not boosting to till 5k id say a boost leak.

SOLOR_ECLIPSE · Jul 3, 2010

If its not one thing its another! I was making a 3rd gear pull today and just as I hit 5k my tranny came apart on me :ohdamn:

. Well, it might be that the clutch just fell apart, since I hear grinding in neutral and will not engage in any gear. At least the tow truck driver didn't rip off my FMIC when loading/unloading. If I end up ordering a Shep tranny, do you think stage 1 will be sufficient for up to 400+ whp? I already have an LSD insert.

So while its down for this, I will go ahead and do the boost leak check, get my cams degreed, and drop in some adj cam gears. An oil restrictor will be a good idea, by the looks of it as well.

crazyquik22023 · Jul 4, 2010

SOLOR_ECLIPSE said:
If its not one thing its another! I was making a 3rd gear pull today and just as I hit 5k my tranny came apart on me . Well, it might be that the clutch just fell apart, since I hear grinding in neutral and will not engage in any gear. At least the tow truck driver didn't rip off my FMIC when loading/unloading. If I end up ordering a Shep tranny, do you think stage 1 will be sufficient for up to 400+ whp? I already have an LSD insert.

So while its down for this, I will go ahead and do the boost leak check, get my cams degreed, and drop in some adj cam gears. An oil restrictor will be a good idea, by the looks of it as well.

I would go with the stage 2 trans from Shep. I've had it in my car for about 2 years and it is amazing.. and please STAY AWAY from the LSD insert and just get an actual LSD.. I guarantee that Shep will tell you to not use the LSD insert and get an LSD, also FYI if you use the insert on his trannys they r not covered under his warranty... if u use a real LSD they are.. I would recommend the quaife LSD, its what i use and its a great product

95GSXBLUR · Jul 4, 2010

jusmx141 said:
Yikes! That could be the contributing factor to your low power output right there.

TalonDave's BC288's were out 4* on one cam and 2* on the other. Once degreed, the car is very happy making power and idles near stock. BC cams are not a good out-of-the-box camshaft for making power with non-adjustable gears.

That's funny, because my unadjusted BC280s make plenty of power, idle just fine, and have been for the last two years, or roughly 7500 miles.

would I make more power if I degreed them? sure.. but I definitely trapped 126 on 20 psi with these cams. Pretty sure you can make power with out degreeing them :thumb:

JusMX141 · Jul 5, 2010

SOLOR_ECLIPSE said:
Well, it might be that the clutch just fell apart, since I hear grinding in neutral and will not engage in any gear.

Perhaps the clutch was bad the whole time the car was being dynoed, hence the low HP number.

95GSXBLUR said:
That's funny, because my unadjusted BC280s make plenty of power, idle just fine, and have been for the last two years, or roughly 7500 miles.

I'm not starting an argument about cam degreeing; it's been proven that if you take the time to degree any cam you install your reward will be more power. If you drop the cams in as-is, sure you're going to be rewarded with gains....but there's always room for more.

95GSXBLUR · Jul 5, 2010

jusmx141 said:
Perhaps the clutch was bad the whole time the car was being dynoed, hence the low HP number.

I'm not starting an argument about cam degreeing; it's been proven that if you take the time to degree any cam you install your reward will be more power. If you drop the cams in as-is, sure you're going to be rewarded with gains....but there's always room for more.

Not trying to start an argument sir, merely correcting your previous statement of saying that dropping in new cams would not net power increase and then you clearly repated what I said, of yes they will increase power, but not as much as if they were degreed so thank you for agreeing.

Your post made it sound like the cams were directly related to his low #s. Being a wisemen you should know better. The bigger cams would not decrease power regardless of degrees, rather if they were out of time in general yes. I'm not here to argue either but don't act like the addition of his bc280s made him lose power.

blackhawkgsx · Jul 5, 2010

yikes on my 1g with the jdm cyclone motor i had a pte 50trim with nothing but fuel mods ,dsm chip and safc i made 346fwhp at 19lbs with a conservative tune, megga rich

RedTurboEclipse · Jul 27, 2010

let me contribute.

i have a pte scm50 internal gate.

i build full boost (22 lbs) at around 3800-3900rpm. I have 272/272 cams.

i have the oil feed from the oil filter housing, with no restrictor. been running that way for a good few thousand miles. no shaft play or any weird indications that the turbo is going bad.

i dont know about you, but under 20lbs the turbo just doesnt seem to be giving much, you really need to turn it up more.

wish i could get some numbers on the dyno, but car has been down.

im using dsmlink 1000cc injectors, rewired 190

SOLOR_ECLIPSE · Jan 14, 2011

After the tranny fell apart on me, the car is almost ready to be back on the road again. A few things have changed - For one the car is now a Talon TSI which the engine will be dropped into. I decided while the engine was out to go forward with a forged build. I went with Kelford 272's, going to give the PTE 50 trim a second chance, threw some Eagle rods, new bearings, and Arias pistons in the mix.

JusMX141 · Jan 14, 2011

95GSXBLUR said:
Your post made it sound like the cams were directly related to his low #s. Being a wisemen you should know better. The bigger cams would not decrease power regardless of degrees, rather if they were out of time in general yes. I'm not here to argue either but don't act like the addition of his bc280s made him lose power.

Sorry for offending someone of your tuning expertise; however there's no reason for the wiseass attitude.

Nowhere did I say that by dropping in agressive cams his car would make less power overall. More aggressive cams generally move the torque curve further to the right and require more RPMs to make power, possibly making the turbo feel laggier down low where there is no airflow being generated, which is exactly what the O.P. was complaining of.

In hindsight I feel it's safe to say that aggressive, undegreed cams + slipping, failing clutch + Arizona intake air temps = unimpressive dyno charts.

SOLOR_ECLIPSE said:
I decided while the engine was out to go forward with a forged build. I went with Kelford 272's, going to give the PTE 50 trim a second chance, threw some Eagle rods, new bearings, and Arias pistons in the mix.

Sounds like the makings of a great setup! I hope your 5031E stays together for you!

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