Need help diagnosing this

90-GST · Feb 18, 2010

Sorry in advance for the book. I'm trying to put in as many details as possible so it's easier to diagnose.

I was driving the car the other day, and the battery light and brake light came on out of no where. While these lights were on, the headlights were dim and the car didn't want to move, but if I pushed the clutch in and reved up a bit, the lights would go off and the car acted normal. I got on the highway and headed home, and the car would randomly throw the battery and brake light on, but if I reved it up a bit, it would go off.

At one point, I was passing someone and the lights came on, and before I could let off, the car backfired super loud. I pulled over and shit the car off, hoping it might do something, and then restarted it. When I did, it ran pretty rough and wanted to die(the 2 lights were on). Shut it off again and it wouldn't start. I just got a loud buzzing similar to the game "Operation" coming from what sounded like behind the head unit. So I called a friend, and he headed out to pick me up. I periodically attempted to start it while waiting, and after about 10-15 minutes it decided to start, so I took advantage of it, and drove about 10 miles to a rest area and pulled off there, where I met my friend, and he jumped the car(I had turned it off and it wouldn't start again). We let it charge up, and I took it the extra 5 miles home where I put it in the garage until I could get my hands on a multimeter. I got one today and checked the battery, and it kept arcing when I attempted to.

I thought my amp was grounding out, so I unhooked it and still got the arcing, so I bought a battery. When I got it back to the house, I realized that my friend had hooked the positive cable into the wrong hole, and I swapped it and it started reading. By that time, I had set the battery on the garage floor(concrete) for about 5 minutes, and it read about .510 volts(I wouldn't think it would lose so much charge so fast?). The new battery read 12.8 volts. I put the new battery in, and hooked everything up and started the car. When I did, the ran a little rough, had a loud ticking noise, and the wideband was reading about 17-19, instead of the normal 13-14.

While the car was running, the multimeter read 12.04(with parking lamps on) and 11.8(with headlights on). The battery light was also showing, and I had my ebake up the whole time, so I can't know if the brake light was on randomly too. When I shut the car off, the multimeter read 12.7 at the battery. I'm thinking it might be the alternator? But am not really sure how to check it without taking it off.

As for the ticking noise, I noticed my oil was low, and filled it up. It kept making the noise, and I let it run for a bit as I checked the voltage again. It started to get quieter as it warmed up, but I didn't let it run much longer than that. The noise seems like it's coming from the intake plenum almost, but I can't pinpoint the noise, and can't get low enough to tell if it coming from the bottom end either.

A video is uploading right now, and will be posted as soon as it is done. It is showing the car idling with the ticking noise, as well as the wideband at 16-17, the battery light on, and the boost gauge sitting at about -10.

bmob01 · Mar 15, 2010

So I was reading my friends electrical systems lab manual from automotive college and ran into this.

"Let's say a customer complains of a starter system problem. The car idles poorly and the battery dies after some driving. Thinking he's a top-notch technician, Ace Otherguy, who works next to you, slaps in a new battery and pronounces the problem solved. Comeback. New starter motor. Comeback. New battery cables. No comeback. He's pretty proud of himself. In only three tries, he got rid of the problem... and the customer as well. Here's the deal. If Ace has first looked for VOLTAGE DROP, he may have solved the problem on the first try, without having to install a single new part! But what is voltage drop? Think of voltage as the pressure that pushes electrons through the circuit. Current, also called amperage, is a measure of electron flow. Resistance is what holds back electrons from flowing freely. Everything that electricity flows through has some resistance, some much more than others. In our example, corrosion has more resistance than a clean wire.... (skipped a bit on Ohms law and such). Let's assume the resistance at the corroded wire is .01 ohms. You'll agree one-hundreth of an ohm seems like hardly any resistance at all; its so small that most ohmmeters can't even read it. When you multiple the .01 ohms though by the amps needed for the starter (200), it causes the drop to be 2 volts! (200*.01)." Sorry for the long write up, seems like such a minor thing can make such a big difference. When you used the multi meter did you check the wire at the battery terminal and at the starter?

90-GST · Mar 16, 2010

gofer said:
Like I said a few posts back, your timing seems high it should be around 5* at idle since thats your base timing. Your timing belt is probably off a few teeth, check your timing IAW that link I sent you Mar. 10th. After you check and make sure the crank is at TDC and the notch in your cam gears a perfect then pull out a timing light.

My timing belt jumped a few teeth randomly, thank god I didn't bend any valves but when I heard the god awful sound the car was making I got it towed and then checked my timing. Hopefully you get lucky... That front o2 sensor is for sure bad but you've got bigger problems right now, MAKE 100% sure your timing is set to 5* at idle because links showing 30* plus.

I'll try that out. I've lined up the crank and cam gears and it seems like the intake cam is about a tooth off while everything else is lined up. I don't see how a single tooth could cause all this, but I'm about to re time the damn thing so I finally know if that is the problem.

bmob01 said:
So I was reading my friends electrical systems lab manual from automotive college and ran into this.

"Let's say a customer complains of a starter system problem. The car idles poorly and the battery dies after some driving. Thinking he's a top-notch technician, Ace Otherguy, who works next to you, slaps in a new battery and pronounces the problem solved. Comeback. New starter motor. Comeback. New battery cables. No comeback. He's pretty proud of himself. In only three tries, he got rid of the problem... and the customer as well. Here's the deal. If Ace has first looked for VOLTAGE DROP, he may have solved the problem on the first try, without having to install a single new part! But what is voltage drop? Think of voltage as the pressure that pushes electrons through the circuit. Current, also called amperage, is a measure of electron flow. Resistance is what holds back electrons from flowing freely. Everything that electricity flows through has some resistance, some much more than others. In our example, corrosion has more resistance than a clean wire.... (skipped a bit on Ohms law and such). Let's assume the resistance at the corroded wire is .01 ohms. You'll agree one-hundreth of an ohm seems like hardly any resistance at all; its so small that most ohmmeters can't even read it. When you multiple the .01 ohms though by the amps needed for the starter (200), it causes the drop to be 2 volts! (200*.01)." Sorry for the long write up, seems like such a minor thing can make such a big difference. When you used the multi meter did you check the wire at the battery terminal and at the starter?

I didn't check the starter wire. I'll have to do that.

I took it out for another drive, and it acted the same. Still can't come up with a reason why the brakes aren't barely working. I found out that if I take the oil cap off, there is some negative pressure in the crank case. I've never seen that before, so I'm going to research it a bit and see what I can find on here. I also got another CEL, one for excessive time to go into closed loop, and another for something along the lines of "generator FR malfunction". I cannot remember the correct details on it, because I cleared it and it was a couple hours ago.

gofer · Mar 16, 2010

Your saying that you checked timing and it was off one tooth and your still taking it out for a drive?!?! :banghead:

My timing belt slipped two teeth and I could have EASILY bent my entire valve train had I driven the car. It's obvious your timing is off... Before you redo the timing I'd give the car a compression check/leak down test and cross your fingers, knock on wood, and pray that you didn't bend any valves.

Heres what I found when my timing belt skipped two teeth...

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2gGSXEclipse · Mar 16, 2010

bmob01 said:
So I was reading my friends electrical systems lab manual from automotive college and ran into this.

"Let's say a customer complains of a starter system problem. The car idles poorly and the battery dies after some driving. Thinking he's a top-notch technician, Ace Otherguy, who works next to you, slaps in a new battery and pronounces the problem solved. Comeback. New starter motor. Comeback. New battery cables. No comeback. He's pretty proud of himself. In only three tries, he got rid of the problem... and the customer as well. Here's the deal. If Ace has first looked for VOLTAGE DROP, he may have solved the problem on the first try, without having to install a single new part! But what is voltage drop? Think of voltage as the pressure that pushes electrons through the circuit. Current, also called amperage, is a measure of electron flow. Resistance is what holds back electrons from flowing freely. Everything that electricity flows through has some resistance, some much more than others. In our example, corrosion has more resistance than a clean wire.... (skipped a bit on Ohms law and such). Let's assume the resistance at the corroded wire is .01 ohms. You'll agree one-hundreth of an ohm seems like hardly any resistance at all; its so small that most ohmmeters can't even read it. When you multiple the .01 ohms though by the amps needed for the starter (200), it causes the drop to be 2 volts! (200*.01)." Sorry for the long write up, seems like such a minor thing can make such a big difference. When you used the multi meter did you check the wire at the battery terminal and at the starter?

Let me guess some good ol' UTI Degree. :banghead:

bmob01 · Mar 16, 2010

nah He goes to a 4 year college in NY called Morrisville, he is in the Ford Asset program. That was just a tip page in his lab manual I was looking through, there is lots of other stuff I didn't make it through

a quick thought for one of your issues (it seems like there may be more than one), you say you are loosing low end torque/ power? I believe this is related to your brakes being weak as well. Your vacuum is way too low. When you have low vacuum, your ECU compensates by increasing fuel pressure. Also, low vacuum decreases braking power as well. Check for a vacuum leak and if you can solve that I think you may fix those two problems.

90-GST · Mar 17, 2010

gofer said:
Your saying that you checked timing and it was off one tooth and your still taking it out for a drive?!?! My timing belt slipped two teeth and I could have EASILY bent my entire valve train had I driven the car. It's obvious your timing is off... Before you redo the timing I'd give the car a compression check/leak down test and cross your fingers, knock on wood, and pray that you didn't bend any valves.

Heres what I found when my timing belt skipped two teeth...

I said it looked a tooth off, although I don't have a straight edge or anything to check and really see. I'm going to attempt to retime it today.

bmob01 · Mar 17, 2010

any update after the drive? I'm curious :hmm:

90-GST · Mar 22, 2010

A couple updates:

First off, redid timing and replaced CPS. After replacing the CPS the timing was at 20-25* at idle, but it would drop to 4-6* before almost dying and raising timing. Still doesn't want to run though.

Worse, second update.

Compression Test Results:

120-0-105-125

Looks like I'm pulling the head and replacing the valves. At least I hope it is valves, cause I don't want to spend any more money than I have to. I'll be pulling the head soon and making sure it is valves before I buy anything.

EDIT @ 6:30am:

Pulled the head off. Have a couple bent valves in cylinder 3, which explains the 0 compression. After I pulled it, me and a friend were looking at it, and it seems like the lifters might have done the damage. Here are my pictures.

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Cylinder 3 intake valves compressed. Notice how compressed the spring is. Pretty much maxed out.

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Lifters on cylinder 3 while spring is compressed.

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Lifters w/ spring uncompressed. Notice how they look different from the following set. They were the only ones that looked this high up.

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Lifters on another cylinder w/ spring uncompressed.

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Spring compressed.

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Lifters w/ spring compressed.

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Block

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Cylinder 4

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Cylinder 3

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Cylinder 2

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Cylinder 1

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And the big crack in my manifold that I found.

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Looks like I'm buying a friend's old head and intake w/ 1g TB. Head is ported on his as well. Going to pick up some ARP studs, and probably an FP manifold, if they sell them to fit the Tial on there.

gofer · Mar 23, 2010

Sorry to see that happened but I knew something wasn't right. Are you 110% sure the timing was dead on even before you did the timing belt? If timing was off a tooth that could be the result of your bent valves in #3... I've never heard of lifters bending valves but, then again I'm not a dsm wiseman. I do see what your talking about in those pictures though, thats interesting. Those were the NEW revised lifters you installed right?

90-GST · Mar 23, 2010

gofer said:
Sorry to see that happened but I knew something wasn't right. Are you 110% sure the timing was dead on even before you did the timing belt? If timing was off a tooth that could be the result of your bent valves in #3... I've never heard of lifters bending valves but, then again I'm not a dsm wiseman. I do see what your talking about in those pictures though, thats interesting. Those were the NEW revised lifters you installed right?

I've never heard of it either, but a friend suggested it and it seems like it would fit. They are the revised lifters I just installed too. Weird thing is the car ran fine for about 45 seconds, just had a ticking that I assumed was he lifters priming. After that it died and wouldn't start again. Which makes me think the lifters had a little to do with it.

gofer · Mar 23, 2010

90-GST said:
I've never heard of it either, but a friend suggested it and it seems like it would fit. They are the revised lifters I just installed too. Weird thing is the car ran fine for about 45 seconds, just had a ticking that I assumed was he lifters priming. After that it died and wouldn't start again. Which makes me think the lifters had a little to do with it.

I hope it wasn't the installation of the revised lifters that bent the valves. :cry:

Did you prime the revised lash adjusters before putting them in the head?

I pulled this from a step in the "How to replash lash adjusters/lifters" article...

Priming/draining the Lash Adjusters
Break out the paperclip and unbend it to look like the picture below. You need to prime the lash adjuster with oil and then drain it. There is an internal check valve that will keep it from compressing. If there is much oil at all inside, you cannot compress it. If you can't compress it, you can't get the rocker back in. If you do get it back in and it won't compress all of the way, the valve won't close all the way (bad when the piston hits it). So at this point, you have a lash adjuster and rocker out of the car, and a paperclip like shown below.

Since your rebuilding the head (or atleast replacing the valves) I'd use this tech article when you get to the lifter install. :coy:

I'm sorry to see what happened but atleast you found the problem.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/265060-how-replace-lash-adjusters-lifters.html

beniger · Mar 24, 2010

the same thing happened to me the other day my power steering was leaking and for no reason my brake light and and water light and a third light was on at all time then go away it was my alternator fuse that blew up it's located by the battery and you need a 10 to take it out it's bolted down

gofer · Mar 24, 2010

beniger said:
the same thing happened to me the other day my power steering was leaking and for no reason my brake light and and water light and a third light was on at all time then go away it was my alternator fuse that blew up it's located by the battery and you need a 10 to take it out it's bolted down

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90-GST · Apr 2, 2010

Well I just got the car running after a month and a half. Replaced the alternator, battery, swapped another stock head on (but kept my fp2's), upgraded to a 1g TB, and upgraded injectors to FIC 1050's.

Started it up and it had a big vacuum leak at the throttle body. We fixed that, and I took it for a drive. Got on it a bit and I could only get 4psi @ 4k, which is normally full boost by then. Went back, and realized I forgot a gasket on the intake pipe to throttle body. Fixed that, and drove it. It hit about 10-12psi @ 4k, and it felt a bit like fuel cut or spark blowout, but right as I felt it I let out. I can't really tell if I might have a boost leak, my plugs are bad, or maybe I just need to adjust fuel. So I thought I'd ask up here.

1st log is the initial start up with a bad vacuum leak, global at -57.0 and deadtime at 330.

2nd log is really log, but is another idle log after we fixed that vacuum leak. I messed with the global a bit, and went from -55.6 to -44.? to get the wideband correct. It reads at 20.0 the entire time when I had the global at -55.

3rd log is another really log idle log. This is after we fixed the other leak at the TB and it idles fairly well. Vacuum is at -10 to -14 which was normal after I installed the cams, and messing with global a bit, I got the wideband to read ~17 with global at -55ish.

4th log is the final drive before I put it up last night. I get into it at ~70 seconds, and again at ~102 seconds. The rest is just me driving around the block a bit.

Let me know what you see in these logs, and what I could do or try to fix things. I haven't tuned the car for the injectors yet. Just changed global and deadtime to what the link wiki says. Also keep in mind, I am a complete noob at this stuff, so you'll probably have to tell me vividly how to do some things.

Going to link to dsmlink forums for the logs. I saved them in a weird spot without noticing and they take forever to find and upload.

ECMTuning User Support Forums

gofer · Apr 2, 2010

90-GST said:
Well I just got the car running after a month and a half. Replaced the alternator, battery, swapped another stock head on (but kept my fp2's), upgraded to a 1g TB, and upgraded injectors to FIC 1050's.

Started it up and it had a big vacuum leak at the throttle body. We fixed that, and I took it for a drive. Got on it a bit and I could only get 4psi @ 4k, which is normally full boost by then. Went back, and realized I forgot a gasket on the intake pipe to throttle body. Fixed that, and drove it. It hit about 10-12psi @ 4k, and it felt a bit like fuel cut or spark blowout, but right as I felt it I let out. I can't really tell if I might have a boost leak, my plugs are bad, or maybe I just need to adjust fuel. So I thought I'd ask up here.

1st log is the initial start up with a bad vacuum leak, global at -57.0 and deadtime at 330.

2nd log is really log, but is another idle log after we fixed that vacuum leak. I messed with the global a bit, and went from -55.6 to -44.? to get the wideband correct. It reads at 20.0 the entire time when I had the global at -55.

3rd log is another really log idle log. This is after we fixed the other leak at the TB and it idles fairly well. Vacuum is at -10 to -14 which was normal after I installed the cams, and messing with global a bit, I got the wideband to read ~17 with global at -55ish.

4th log is the final drive before I put it up last night. I get into it at ~70 seconds, and again at ~102 seconds. The rest is just me driving around the block a bit.

Let me know what you see in these logs, and what I could do or try to fix things. I haven't tuned the car for the injectors yet. Just changed global and deadtime to what the link wiki says. Also keep in mind, I am a complete noob at this stuff, so you'll probably have to tell me vividly how to do some things.

Going to link to dsmlink forums for the logs. I saved them in a weird spot without noticing and they take forever to find and upload.

ECMTuning User Support Forums

I can't look at your logs since I'm at work so I'll edit this post when I get home and jump on my laptop, however there are a few things you need to know about the Global/Deadtime fuel settings.

Global is the correction from the 450's (OEM injectors) to your FIC 1050's and the formula to find it on gasoline is...
450(OEM injector size) / 1050(size of your new injectors) - 1 = -57%

You mentioned you played with your Global settings to get your WB to read correctly at idle, I assume that correctly means a 14.7:1 AFR? Your idle might be STOICH with a -44% Global but going WOT your going to be PIG rich. I'm not sure what your fuel settings look like in that 4th log but your Global settings should be -57% and your Deadtime value is the one you play with to get your idle AFR's to 14.7:1. That way when you mash the gas your fuel correction is still -57% like it should be, keeping you from going pig rich.

90-GST · Apr 3, 2010

Car is running now. No boost leaks or vacuum leaks(at least shown by a boost leak test).

Alternator is still acting up. I'm not really sure why. And the car is running a bit weird. Idle's really high. About 1700-2200. Even with the BISS screwed all the way in, and idle set at 950 via link. And it is taking really long to build boost. Normally got full boost right around 4k. Now It's only getting to 20psi at about 5k. Sounds like a slight misfire too. I'm thinking timing, but we triple checked it when we timed it. So tomorrow, after the family leaves, it will get pulled out into the driveway for a wash and to clean the garage a bit. After that, I'll be jacking it up, pulling the wheel off, and checking timing and the alternator.

gofer · Apr 3, 2010

90-GST said:
Car is running now. No boost leaks or vacuum leaks(at least shown by a boost leak test).

Alternator is still acting up. I'm not really sure why. And the car is running a bit weird. Idle's really high. About 1700-2200. Even with the BISS screwed all the way in, and idle set at 950 via link. And it is taking really long to build boost. Normally got full boost right around 4k. Now It's only getting to 20psi at about 5k. Sounds like a slight misfire too. I'm thinking timing, but we triple checked it when we timed it. So tomorrow, after the family leaves, it will get pulled out into the driveway for a wash and to clean the garage a bit. After that, I'll be jacking it up, pulling the wheel off, and checking timing and the alternator.

I just checked your log and I wouldn't start the car if I were you when you go to back it out of the garage. Your timing looks off like you mentioned, hopefully if you don't start the car again and get it back in time you'll get lucky.

beniger · Apr 3, 2010

did you check that main alternator fuse

90-GST · Apr 19, 2010

Long time no update. I got the car running. Swapped on a friend's head from his old motor, as well as his intake and 1g throttle body. Also put on some 1050cc FIC injectors with plans to go e85.

Put the car in time, and I turned it over 12 times to double check it being in time. The marks lined up every 6 turns, and I put a screwdriver in the hole in the rear every 3. Each time, the screwdriver went all the way in, which I figure is the balance shaft possibly being out of time, even though it lines up. Started it up, and let it warm up. It seemed to idle fine after warming up (starts at 2k when cold, and slowly lowers as it warms up). Exhaust note sounded normal, and throttle response was normal. Didn't have lug nuts, so I couldn't drive the car.

Got them in the next day, and threw the new wheels on and took it out. The car seemed to idle a bit different, and when I floor it, it take a long time (about 4k instead of 3k) to start spooling, and once it hits about 10psi, starts to cut out. I don't have any boost leaks either. I replaced the plugs with no avail, and now the car sounds like it is missing and almost like a subaru again when driving it.

Here are a few logs. One is an idle log, and there are a couple driving logs I took of the car too. I can't figure out why the car is missing, and cutting out in WOT.

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Need help diagnosing this

90-GST

bmob01

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2gGSXEclipse

bmob01

90-GST

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90-GST

gofer

90-GST

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beniger

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