twdorris said:

it does not support native GM MAF integration, it does not allow you to switch between MAF sensors, it doesn't even allow you to run on a MAF at all if you want (many people do), it does not provide MAF based adjustments, it does not have auto-adjust tools for dialing in the MAF and for dialing in the SD VE table and who knows what else.

And, yes, I'm sure there are a few things the Ostrich and/or dsmap does that ECMLink doesn't. I seem to recall someone mentioning some sort of crude boost control, for example. I do not know the implementation details, though, so I can't comment much on that.

And one can argue whether they want to use any of those features I listed all they want. But they can't say Jackal has all the same features. It doesn't. It doesn't even log as fast as V3Lite, much less do everything the full package does.

And, BTW, running on a MAF is perfectly fine. I do it all the time and I most certainly have speed density as an option any time I want. Nobody can tell whether you're running SD or a MAF if they're both dialed in properly. I guarantee that. It just doesn't make sense to suggest otherwise. It's just an difference in whether airflow is measured (MAF) or estimated (SD).

Thomas Dorris

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Why are you going to start talking about MAF's, MAF integration, exchange, etc. when this is obviously a speed density software?

This doesn't need to be a pissing competition between your product and Jackal, this is supposed to help people gather information about Jackal, you have several threads for ECMlink. I don't see how you coming in preaching your product is helping anyone gather information about Jackal, by any means.

You are trying to spout as much as possible, slamming the product, yet have you used it yourself even? This isn't a Jackal vs. ECMlink thread, please try and keep it civilized and stay on the topic at hand. I mean that for all parties involved, ECMlink and Jackal users alike.

With that said, Jackal has a few features that are quite nice to have. The ability to tune in real time is a great asset and the link time from the ostrich to the ecu with uploading tunes is almost instant. I don't quite understand what some of you are meaning by lag time, when I can upload and edit a tune instantaneously; where as some other products make you shut your vehicle off, upload the tune, start the car back up, and then get to work on your tune again if everything is not 100% on with your tune.

Another thing that I don't think most people realize is that you can user the Ostrich to tune much more than just DSM's. You can tune Honda's, Ford's, GM vehicles, etc. The ability and use of the ostrich is amazing and the ability for use is almost endless.

KazooGS-T said:

Why are you going to start talking about MAF's, MAF integration, exchange, etc. when this is obviously a speed density software?

This doesn't need to be a pissing competition between your product and Jackal, this is supposed to help people gather information about Jackal, you have several threads for ECMlink. I don't see how you coming in preaching your product is helping anyone gather information about Jackal, by any means.

You are trying to spout as much as possible, slamming the product, yet have you used it yourself even? This isn't a Jackal vs. ECMlink thread, please try and keep it civilized and stay on the topic at hand.

With that said, Jackal has a few features that are quite nice to have. The ability to tune in real time is a great asset and the link time from the ostrich to the ecu with uploading tunes is almost instant. I don't quite understand what some of you are meaning by lag time, when I can upload and edit a tune instantaneously; where as some other products make you shut your vehicle off, upload the tune, start the car back up, and then get to work on your tune again if everything is not 100% on with your tune.

Another thing that I don't think most people realize is that you can user the Ostrich to tune much more than just DSM's. You can tune Honda's, Ford's, GM vehicles, etc. The ability and use of the ostrich is amazing and the ability for use is almost endless.

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Though I know Tom can defend himself, as can everyone else, let's be realistic here - ECMlink will be mentioned in this thread no matter what. It's a similar product. Someone mentioned that Jackal and ECMlink are basically the same or had all the same features. Tom stepped in and pointed out some differences and facts about ECMlink to prevent misinformation. He didn't seem to be confrontational about it.

If this thread were started about ECMlink and a similar comment was made about them being the same thing, a Jackal developer/owner/supporter could very well point out the differences too. Just because someone affiliated with each product jumps in and tries to set the record straight doesn't mean there's a pissing match going on. If anyone has found this to be true in other threads, PM me about it and I'll see about taking care of it.

Seriously guys, let's calm down and stop being so God damned confrontational.

Kazoo is right. I've used both Link v3, v2, v1, TunerPro RT, Jackal, EFI Live, HPTuners, and Jackal has the best community, hands down. Tom, I do not know you personally. I think Link is a good thing for people who (no offense) are wanting something plug and play.... no learning curve like jackal has

standard235 said:

I think Link is a good thing for people who (no offense) are wanting something plug and play.... no learning curve like jackal has

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Good analysis. From what I've read, and having not used both, I think this is a fairly accurate statement.

Yeah, I think that is pretty close. That applies to the MAF vs. SD discussion too. Running a MAF is better if you never want to mess with tuning a VE map, and just want the car to basically do it for you. Running SD is more involved initially, because you have to take time to set up the VE map. However, in the end you may benefit more from it. It all really comes down to how much time and effort you want to put into it. There are always people with lots of money that have fast cars because a shop did all the work for them, and there are people with hardly any money that made their car just as fast all by themselves. Jackal is for the people who want to get the very most out of their setup and are willing to learn how the system works and do it themselves. The good thing is that Jackal is very easy to learn, and there are a lot of people to help.

Kazoo, you hit a great point. Whenever I'm tuning by myself I just take a log, pull over to the side of the road, check what I've got, make a couple changes to the tune, upload it and I'm off again to take another log. I can't imagine tuning any other way now.

I thought the learning curve was a bit steep. I was used to using an SAFC and tuning based solely on RPM. I was very confused by the load-based tuning when I first picked up the software. I started messing with RPM points in the VE map before doing much else and my car ran awful. I really had to learn a lot before I felt I could do anything useful. I'm still learning how to adjust the VE and timing maps to get things just where I want them. Getting the instant feedback from taking a log, changing the tune and taking another log is immensely helpful in teaching yourself what's going on.

Cook, I realized there were serious limitations to SAFC based tuning after I switched software. The SAFC 1 I ran only changed readings based on rpm's at six points. That universal adjustment means it is taking away or adding airflow reading at that RPM regardless of how much throttle you're giving or what boost level you're at. The problem there is that at 3k rpms and 3 inHg of vacuum you may need very different tuning than when you are at 3k rpms and at 5psi of boost. With my old SAFC I had to pick which one to tune (usually boost) and leave it at that. That meant I was hurting my off boost tune and creating more turbo lag too. The load-based tuning means you can adjust the fuel given to the engine at specific vacuum and boost levels rather than RPM's. The difference is HUGE. As I'm getting more comfortable with the software I'm going in and changing the VE based on RPM too for a much more accurate tune of the engine than RPM based tuning alone can ever give.

I like the way you explained that. Rpm vs load tuning that is. I know i can go look it up myself but i feel it will help benefit others that may be reading this, can someone explain how they are tuning their VE tables? What does adjusting it either way do?

having never used jackal, i can't say whether this will be useful or not, but i found it to be very helpful while tuning my car with SD:

http://apexology.com/files/fuelcorrection.xls

essentially, you take your datalogged AFR and paste that table into the sheet. put your target AFR into its respective section, then paste your VE table into the fuel map section and it calculates how far off your target AFR your current VE map is, applies those calculations to your current VE map and spits out a new VE map to copy/paste into the tuning software- kind of an 'autotune' spreadsheet.

i used it with crome/freelog on my MR2 (i use an integra ECU for engine management), and was able to nail down the VE map in about 15 minutes.

cookmeup272 said:

I like the way you explained that. Rpm vs load tuning that is. I know i can go look it up myself but i feel it will help benefit others that may be reading this, can someone explain how they are tuning their VE tables? What does adjusting it either way do?

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The VE map, along with the MAP and IAT sensors, tells the ECU how much air is in the motor. Then the ECU uses the fuel table and the target AFR to calculate the needed pulsewidth of the injectors.

For example, at 3k rpm and 1 psi boost, your wideband says your AFR is 15:1, but your fuel table says that you should be at 13:1. This means your VE table is off. So, you would go to the VE table and add to it in that area. If it was lean at 1 psi and any rpm, we could use the compVE. This has the benefit of having very quick results, and is great for initial tuning. If it was only lean at that point, then we could go into the VE map at/around 3k rpm and 1 psi boost and add a couple percentage points to the map, and retest. The VE map is based on RPM and MAP (manifold air pressure).

For a more thorough explanation of how speed density works and info about Jackal, definitely be sure to read the Wiki here. There has been a lot of time spent on it and there is still more to come.

Morpherex said:

Ostrich can be wireless via bluetooth .

...You run a Maf-T... That doesn't prove 3rd gear pulls are better.

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Not any more! The MAFT is sold and I'm in the process of switching over to SD and Jackal as we speak. Also looks like I'll be doing 4th gear pulls from now on also. Thing is there are very few roads I can do them on around here, 4th gear at 6500 rpm's is pretty darn fast

I really like the chat room, that anyone can play with the software for free, and the fact that jackal has an open forum. The learning curve is a lot less steep when there are 3 or 4 people that are either developing the system, or have used it for years there to help you pretty much any hour of the day. Having real people to talk to in real time can make a big difference in how easily someone picks it up.

When I was first starting out there was link and some other deceased binary editors (I think TMO did one, and something like deamon edit?). Without being able to try link, I wasn't about to spend $XXX on a binary editor, so that's how I got into the DIY, and eventually Jackal. I know that it is much more than that now, but I'm not paying to find out how much.

Also, it is fair to say that link supports MAF and Jackal does not. It is not fair to say that with the equipment you get for jackal you cannot tune a MAF system. You can use tunerpro and edit the hex in binaries to do virtually anything you want to the MAF system.

Not completely related to Jackal, but the ostrich and tunerpro combination can be used to tune (with real time uploading) any of these models of cars
http://www.tunerpro.net/downloadBinDefs.htm
I've used it in 5 different makes of cars so far.

Just basically got my car up and running with Jackal, and I must say I'm impressed....alot. The idle is perfect and the car drives great. I'm only at stock boost but its amazing how the car runs. I'll be posting more as I tune the car.
BTW the ds-map forum is incredible, I had alot of little problems (none that had to do with Jackal btw) and you get instant help there on the forum, even faster if you in chat. I was kinda leery about moving to such a radical system, but the support is amazing over there.

Are these units all the same as far as 1g and 2g? There is a 2g setup for sale I'm interested in purchasing. My socketed ECU is a 1g.

Also is a chip still needed? Or is the jackal unit taking the place of the chip? IE the ribbon cable plugs into where the chip use to go? Reason I ask is I sold my chip with my old injectors. So I have a chipless socketed ECU.

yes jackal plugs in where your chip was. no its not for 2g unless you figure out a way to swap the ecu out of a 1g to a 2g.

forcefed86 said:

Are these units all the same as far as 1g and 2g? There is a 2g setup for sale I'm interested in purchasing. My socketed ECU is a 1g.

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There is no Jackal software for 2g ECU's. This is strictly for 1g units. No one has given the 2g ECU info to the Jackal team so they can't port it over.

Also is a chip still needed? Or is the jackal unit taking the place of the chip? IE the ribbon cable plugs into where the chip use to go? Reason I ask is I sold my chip with my old injectors. So I have a chipless socketed ECU.

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Jackal is strictly a software package, no hardware. The hardware you purchase is an Ostrich EPROM chip emulator and various sensors. The Ostrich does use a ribbon cable to plug into a socketed EPROM location. No chip is required as the Ostrich is essentially a USB reprogrammable chip replacement.

Just got my car set up and running on Jackal last week Friday. After about an hour of VE dial in/base tune for idle, free rev, and some cruising I left for a 100 mile road trip to the Dells Automotion meet that weekend

This is coming from a car that was previously tuned on safc for a good while with e85, 1000's and a 2g mas, then tunerproRT for a month or so. No boost leaks, always recirc'ed BOV, all around good running and well set up for what it was. Not trying to toot my own horn but rather highlight the improvements made with jackal even with a good base to start with.

Runs really really well especially for the short amount of time I've had to mess with it. The base VE map was pretty damn close and just needed to be shifted around a bit since I'm no longer on stock cams(take out fuel for idle/cruise and add some fuel up top and in the higher load cells).

Driveability is actually much improved without having a MAS. An annoyance before was compressor surge at part throttle low rpm under boost from modifying the 1g bov(dodge garage mod). Under certain conditions you couldn't modulate the throttle or let off slowly after building boost without the surge causing the MAS to freak out a little and make the car buck if it fluttered for too long. The surge is still there, but it doesn't affect the car whatsoever and makes it much easier to feather the throttle under boost. Boost leaks of course won't affect the tune, and more importantly won't leave you limping to a side road if a coupler blows off.

Idle is noticeably better, too. Very very steady(still lopes) at 850 rpm with 264/272's and when the clutch is pressed in the revs drop RIGHT to 850rpm and hold. No dip in rpm after the revs fall, no stalling after pushing in the clutch after a pull, no hunting around before the idle settles down. Those with a lightweight flywheel, cams, and low target idle may know the symptoms I'm talking about(and this is on a car that ran pretty well before).

It's set up to run in open loop all the time which I really like, especially once the VE is nailed down. Cruise you can aim for about 15.5:1 and have it richen up gradually as there is more load. There is complete control over what afr you want under each condition, and when. You can still have closed loop if you want, but there really isn't a need once you get it dialed in. Extremely steady AFRs and smooth transitions.

Haven't messed with WOT tuning too much(left it rich for now) but on most cars that I've seen go from a MAS to speed density, the AFR curve is more consistent and repeatable, especially if it was a GM MAF before.

The only quirks I've run into is the Jackal logger doesn't update all that quickly(only a few data points per second) and it doesn't have datalog tracing/cell tracking. You can still look at the load and rpm to find out which load cell it's in, but having the cell you're in at any given time lit up would be extremely convenient. Boost compensation for anything besides and 3 bar has to have a different scaling than the basemap which often isn't mentioned but you tune around the sensor anyway so it's not a huge deal. Still something to consider if using a 4 bar etc.

All in all I'm really liking it so far. Don't let the fact that it's free make you think ANY less of it, it's extremely capable tuning software.

where are you guys getting your Ostrich from, who has the best deals etc?

Get it through the store at What's new at DS-Map? | DSMAP. It will help support the site for future developments. There is really no place that sells it for cheaper. I ordered mine on a monday and got it on thursday. Great service!!!

Thanks now if I could get some of my posts approved I would be ready to go ...

where can i get jackal v1.0 software? or can you help me, if for jackal v2 i have it.

Irwan said:

where can i get jackal v1.0 software? or can you help me, if for jackal v2 i have it.

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It's probably long gone unless someone still has the xdf and bin files to build from. It was experimental coding by whoever had created DS-Map at the time I believe and it did work well. Everyone has pretty much gone to EcmLink these days.