The more i read about speed density, they more me and my wallet agree that it is the way to go. But i will continue to do my research until the time comes to ultimately decide.

Baron4406 said:

3rd gear pulls are better

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They might be. I'm no tuning expert and won't pretend to be one. I'm just speaking from my experience.

jlr, cook, there is a bit more to setup than that. You will need to wire in the sensors or use the harness in Chris' post and you'll need to get your wideband installed and wired to send a signal to the ECU. Neither is terribly difficult but they do have to be done.

Im looking at it more as cost vs ease of use and effectiveness.If i can save $100 or so and it works JUST as good, maybe a little better or worse, as ecmlink...then i would go with Jackal

eclipsh said:

They might be. I'm no tuning expert and won't pretend to be one. I'm just speaking from my experience.

jlr, cook, there is a bit more to setup than that. You will need to wire in the sensors or use the harness in Chris' post and you'll need to get your wideband installed and wired to send a signal to the ECU. Neither is terribly difficult but they do have to be done.

Click to expand...

Yes, your absolutely correct about that. I did buy the Full Throttle Speed Density Harness and simply plugged right into the factory maf plug making it that much simpler. You will have to wire in the WBO2 but you will have to do that regardless of what tuning system you use.

jlr2196 said:

but Jackal has all the capabilities of the full blown version

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I'm sorry, but I don't feel that's an accurate statement. It does not have switchable auxiliary maps based on parameters, it can not datalog as fast or as well (huge point, IMO), it does not have dual rail fuel support, it does not have simplified RPM-based fuel and timing adjustments (this was a HUGE request from our users for easier tuning than the full map stuff), it does not have the larger base fuel and timing maps (rescaled is not the same), it does not support native GM MAF integration, it does not allow you to switch between MAF sensors, it doesn't even allow you to run on a MAF at all if you want (many people do), it does not provide MAF based adjustments, it does not have auto-adjust tools for dialing in the MAF and for dialing in the SD VE table and who knows what else.

And, yes, I'm sure there are a few things the Ostrich and/or dsmap does that ECMLink doesn't. I seem to recall someone mentioning some sort of crude boost control, for example. I do not know the implementation details, though, so I can't comment much on that.

And one can argue whether they want to use any of those features I listed all they want. But they can't say Jackal has all the same features. It doesn't. It doesn't even log as fast as V3Lite, much less do everything the full package does.

And, BTW, running on a MAF is perfectly fine. I do it all the time and I most certainly have speed density as an option any time I want. Nobody can tell whether you're running SD or a MAF if they're both dialed in properly. I guarantee that. It just doesn't make sense to suggest otherwise. It's just an difference in whether airflow is measured (MAF) or estimated (SD).

Look, as I said before, you need to download them both and decide for yourself. Our installer includes a few datalogs you can use to poke around all you want. All of our datalogs include a copy of the ECU settings that were in place when the log was captured (I don't know if Jackal does or not), so you can just pull up the ECU settings and have a look at things.

You can also watch the demos I linked to before to get an idea of how smooth the application works between logging and tuning and how a typical log session goes. These two in particular should provide good starting points:

Basic Tuning Example
Fuel Trim Example

One option to keep in mind...if you want to start with a MAF for now to keep things simple and then migrate to SD later with an auto-adjusted VE table based on your MAF setup, you can do that with ECMLink. We have an adjustment tool that makes auto-calibrating the VE table based on airflow data from a MAF a piece of cake. We have another tool to adjust the VE table based on closed loop data too. If you decide you want to switch back to the MAF to check things out again, it's just a change to a single drop down box. It's really as easy as it gets, IMO.

Thomas Dorris

cookmeup272 said:

The more i read about speed density, they more me and my wallet agree that it is the way to go. But i will continue to do my research until the time comes to ultimately decide.

Click to expand...

As Thomas has mentioned SD isn't a wonder drug. I've told people for quite a while that they're expectations usually are far larger than the differences. If recalibrating my MAF for the evo8 ecu would have been easier than switching to SD I would have done that. SD isn't hard to tune but compared to sticking with an MAF it actually is kind of a pain in the ass just because it is so easy to have the car run well without actually having your eVE and mapVE calibrated correctly so that whenever you make a small tuning change you do more damage than good.

Once i get my car running, ill obviously stick with the SAFC/MAFT combo. I don't really NEED anything greater. But i do like to look to the future as far as logging/tuning systems for the 1G. Good debates is when all the good information comes up

I have my brothers car running on Jackal and my car on some much modified yahoo dsm-ecu group code.

Between the two, I much prefer the my code with the maf. It is easier to dial in the maf comp then a entire VE table.

As a whole, DSMLink is superior then any of the open source, but its also cost more. So it all depends on what features you need or feel are important.

twdorris said:

Choose whichever suits you. Just keep the facts in mind.

First, for dsmap or any Ostrich-based solution, you're going to need an Ostrich and a datalogging cable plugged into the laptop. I don't like the extra clutter with the second cable, but it's certainly not a major issue. Just something to keep in mind.

The going rate for the Ostrich and cable is probably around $210 or so, depending on where you get it. That's assuming $175 for the Ostrich as listed on Moates and then $35 for the USB cable.

You'll also need to get your ECU socketed and I don't know what that runs, but one of the previous posters mentioned $65 (seems high, but who knows). If that's the case, then you're looking at $275.

For ECMLink, you have the option of running V3Lite for $345 which includes a molded USB dataloggin cable, clutch cut wire and custom designed reflash module, specifically for DSMs. We can also do the socketing and caps at the same time for $30, bringing the final total to $375. In addition, we offer complete, professional repair options and full testing of the ECU while it's here. We also offer a non-EPROM conversion for 1Gs too.

We've been in the business for nearly 10 years and we've been a part of DSMs for over 15. We still own and track our DSMs regularly too. We're true enthusiasts that have been around a long time and will be around a lot longer.

But we can only continue supporting the DSMs as well as we have if we continue to get support from the users in the community. We are constantly developing new products and cool new features like GM MAF integration inside the ECU, the non-EPROM conversion for the 1G (and soon 2Gs), platform support across 1G, 2G and early EVO lines, etc., etc...

A few dollars in pricing isn't the only thing to consider, IMO. I'm sure that's all opinion, but there's mine.

If you want, you can also watch a few videos of our package in action here to help make up your mind.

ECMLink demos

Hopefully that helps,

Thomas Dorris
ECMTuning, Inc.

Click to expand...

Ostrich can be wireless via bluetooth .

Baron4406 said:

3rd gear pulls are better

Click to expand...

...You run a Maf-T... That doesn't prove 3rd gear pulls are better.

Morpherex said:

Ostrich can be wireless via bluetooth .

Click to expand...

Cool feature, but doesn't that make it even slower yet?

Let's move back to this thread being about Jackal. I can hear all the conspiracy nuts complaining already about the direction this is going.

LandoAWD said:

Let's move back to this thread being about Jackal. I can hear all the conspiracy nuts complaining already about the direction this is going.

Click to expand...

So the SPEED of the 61 Lincoln SS100X and the DENSITY of the foliage on the grassy knoll all contributed to forming the Elliptic Curve Method that proved the LINK between the lemon merchant. Because I'm the keeper of the cheese, AND HE KNOWS IT!!!!!

Sorry, but you have to expect some sort of CT response. On a factual note, there's really not a comparison between Link and Jackal. One supports speed density (it's purpose for existing) tuning and the other one uses MAF/MAS be it mitsu or GM based. Ask yourself if you want to buy another MAF if you're overrunning your current one or if you want to try and tune with SD. I have Link2.5 which I unwisely bought about 2 months before v3 came out. It does what it's supposed to do (and it comes with sliders! ). Yes I know Jackal users make fun of the sliders. Another thing to consider is Jackal will work with LINUX if what I read is correct.

Im sorry but is link and megasquirt one in the same? All 3 of their version are very very similar. Megasquirt v3 is now speed density as well, kind of odd. I know megasquirt has been out for a while so does link just rip them off every time a new version is released?? anyway..

I give props to jackal for all their hard work. They offer an amazing tuning option for FREE! They also have a huge selection of "do-it-yourself" parts and sensors. Im running their freescale 3bar map sensor and cant wait for their custom usb logging cables, which gets rid of all the other cables and expensive adapters.

jlr2196 said:

Jackal improves monthly with updates & new features that are easily downloadable over the internet. My experience with the Dsmap forum has been AWESOME, these guys are very helpful & knowledgable. My whole experience with Dsmap Jackal has been one of the best, I can't describe how well my car runs..it was a whole new experience from the start of the key, simply amazing.
Check out the Dsmap site & see what you think..Sometimes doing something different than everybody else can be the best thing, it was for me

Click to expand...

I couldnt agree with you more.

91stocker said:

Im sorry but is link and megasquirt one in the same? All 3 of their version are very very similar. Megasquirt v3 is now speed density as well, kind of odd. I know megasquirt has been out for a while so does link just rip them off every time a new version is released?? anyway..

Click to expand...

We were just told to get back on track about Jackal.

Megasquirt doesn't use the stock ECU at all. All versions of megasquirt are speed density, although it is possible to use it with a 0-5v MAF, or just run off the TPS alone.

twdorris said:

and then $35 for the USB cable.

Click to expand...

Where do you buy your USB cables? I picked up a 10' cable for $1.52 You just gotta know where to shop.

If we're going to have people taking shots at every other person who brings up another tuning option or posts their opinion/experience, we can just close this down altogether.

jl22196, the Jackal developers openly target DSMlink/ECMlink, their main competitor, on their site and have done so here in these forums on numerous occasions in DSMlink threads, the same as Tom has done here in this thread. If you see that as disrespect, you should throw rocks at everyone doing it, not just Tom. The developer of the product you're supporting is just as guilty. You can't get so bent out of shape because somebody mentions a competing product in a discussion about tuning software, it's bound to happen here, and on any other DSM forum you discuss tuning options. And just because someone prefers one system over the other, it doesn't mean they're "hating" on it. Let's not allow our passion/support/loyalty for one product push us over the edge in a discussion like this - a discussion that should be informational, not full of promo sound bites for Jackal, DSMlink/ECMlink, Megasquirt, etc from their respective supporters/owners/developers.

Though there will be mention and comparison of other tuning products competing with Jackal (that's completely normal for people looking for information) in this discussion, let's try and keep this thread focused mainly on Jackal and its pros/cons.

This really shouldn't be so controversial. It's a friggin' tuning software discussion. Let's keep it in perspective folks.

Damn, that got out of hand fast. Guys, seriously, let it go, I want to keep this thread alive so new members can learn about what Jackal is, what it does, and how it works. I welcome anyone to ask questions so we can get this thread back on track.

A couple things: as has already been mentioned, Jackal uses native wideband. We get rid of the stock narrowband completely, as it is useless with Jackal. Most people run in open loop 100% of them time anyway. Jackal is currently set to target 2.5V in closed loop, so this can only be used if you have a wideband that has stoich at 2.5V. Programmable widebands can do this, others can not. However, we strongly suggest against running closed loop, because you really can't tune while using it. It is better to get your tune 100% on with open loop, and then explore closed loop if you really want to. Most members stay in open loop all the time, just because once your tune is spot on, there is no reason to do otherwise.

The Ostrich is not slow. It is only used to upload/download tunes to the ECU. In the time it takes you to read this sentence, I can upload a new tune to my Ostrich multiple times. On top of that, you don't have to turn your car off to do it. You can be driving, have a friend in the passenger seat, and have him constantly tuning and uploading new tunes all while you cruise along. It makes tuning much, much quicker and also gives the possibility of tuning in real time on a load holding dyno, although most people don't do that.

There is new stuff popping up on the DSMAP forums all the time, so if you really interested in the software, that is definitely the place to be. Lately there has been a lot of traffic, and more and more members are joining everyday, it's really cool to watch.

twdorris said:

A few dollars in pricing isn't the only thing to consider, IMO. I'm sure that's all opinion, but there's mine.

ECMTuning, Inc.

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A few other things to keep in mind, ECM tuning is doing this to make money. The guys behind jackal were doing it for the interest of dsming. That being said, the money is not the entire reason to use either product. I was very interested in jackal/ dsmap because it was open. I could take what I wanted, add things that I wanted and were not there.

Now jackal is no longer open, and they are very against anyone who is interested in anything but running it as is.

I personally run a ostrich with Tunerpro RT. For the $175 I spent for the ostrich I will never run anything else. I originally wanted to run dsmap, but I was interested in adding support for a gm flex fuel sensor. I also want to run staged injecton. But alas I can no longer take dsmap and modify it to suit my tastes. The people on the forum were very negative towards me when I asked about this. It seems that I will end up making my own speed density code.

The reason I am no longer interested in jackal, is the same reason I don't like dsmlink. You can't tweak it.

99gst_racer said:

Cool feature, but doesn't that make it even slower yet?

Click to expand...

No, logging is still done via the data port. Curtis Hacker is currently working on a USB logger cable for 1g DSM's. I just use my Palm M130 to log since I already had it and the cables. The connection to the Ostrich is just used for changing the ECU maps. Going with bluetooth would eliminate running a cable to the Ostrich when you're updating the tune. I just keep my Ostrich velcroed in a convenient hidden spot for easy access. It makes pulling the Ostrich out of the car a snap if I ever want added anti-theft security (long term parking etc).

Lando, Chris, thanks for trying to keep things on track. I hope it can stay that way. It is natural some comparisons to the other guys will be here but I think that has been done enough. Please everyone, let's not act like politicians putting down the competition to make our guy look good. Keep it focused on how Jackal works and the pro's/cons, costs etc. of running it.

Kurt, I am sure the guys at ECMTuning are doing it for more than money. You can tell there is passion behind their support for DSM's and I'm glad they are out there. Healthy competition is good for both systems. That said, those of us running Jackal really need to be more adult in our conversation rather than bashing Link.

eclipsh said:

Lando, Chris, thanks for trying to keep things on track. I hope it can stay that way. It is natural some comparisons to the other guys will be here but I think that has been done enough. Please everyone, let's not act like politicians putting down the competition to make our guy look good. Keep it focused on how Jackal works and the pro's/cons, costs etc. of running it.

Kurt, I am sure the guys at ECM-Link are doing it for more than money. You can tell there is passion behind their support for DSM's and I'm glad they are out there. Healthy competition is good for both systems. That said, those of us running Jackal really need to be more adult in our conversation rather than bashing Link.

Click to expand...

Thanks for being a voice of reason for everyone. It's refreshing to see someone who doesn't think there's an agenda behind everything that happens.

Seconded on the Ostrich. It really is a cool piece of hardware, and makes tuning much easier and quicker. Anyone that has tuned before with a chip burner will tell you it gets tiresome.

On the open comment - I'm surprised that you got that kind of reaction.

The reason that Jackal is encrypted is just so all the hard work that gets put into it, stays there. In other words, we don't want people coming on the forum, taking the software, and running off with it to modify themselves.

However, I see no problem with someone coming up with some code and adding it to Jackal so all users can use it. If that is something you are willing to do and you have experience writing code, I would suggest talking to Hak directly on our forum. The main point is that all the members of the site do their part to contribute to the community in a way that all members can benefit. Besides Hak, there are some other guys on the development team who have put a lot of hard work into the program.

This will get more important when the payware version is realized, and we don't want people stealing features unique to the software.

twdorris said:

I'm sorry, but I don't feel that's an accurate statement. It does not have switchable auxiliary maps based on parameters, it can not datalog as fast or as well (huge point, IMO), it does not have dual rail fuel support, it does not have simplified RPM-based fuel and timing adjustments (this was a HUGE request from our users for easier tuning than the full map stuff), it does not have the larger base fuel and timing maps (rescaled is not the same), it does not support native GM MAF integration, it does not allow you to switch between MAF sensors, it doesn't even allow you to run on a MAF at all if you want (many people do), it does not provide MAF based adjustments, it does not have auto-adjust tools for dialing in the MAF and for dialing in the SD VE table and who knows what else.

And, yes, I'm sure there are a few things the Ostrich and/or dsmap does that ECMLink doesn't. I seem to recall someone mentioning some sort of crude boost control, for example. I do not know the implementation details, though, so I can't comment much on that.

Click to expand...

I will agree that link has a much better logging solution. But how important is the much higher speed that link logs at? I am pretty sure that aldl logging allows more data resolution with less parameters monitored. So if your only logging RPM, Knock, A/F, you will have more than enough data to get a tune dialed in. Having too much data can be worse than not enough.

The RPM based slider tuning isn't really a feature. Thats a band aide for people that are either scared or not intelligent enough to tune with load and RPM like the rest of the world.

Any of the features you list (even slider tuning) can be done with an ostrich and a modded E931 code. Most of them are simply not worth the time to anyone intelligent enough to actually get it done.

The gm maf could easily be added with an ostrich, but once your outflowing a 2gmaf or evo maf you have usually grown up enough to go to speed density.

How much bigger are you making your maps? Are doubling amount of load rows? Doesn't make much sense when a gm maf would be over-run before you get to the highest load row.

I just wanted to make one thing clear in this thread, and I don't usually reply to this type of petty BS, but I felt it had to be done. Anyone who goes over to ds-map.net to learn more about Jackal and possibly download the software will be exposed to some pretty harsh accusations and hostile comments about our site, our members, our moderators, me personally, and our presumed bias in the whole Jackal discussion.

There are plenty of negative assumptions made and colorful terms used to refer to our site and our members (yes, all of you) over there by the ds-map site leaders - even though our members are DSMers just like them. DSMers who likely don't limit their participation to only this site. DSMers who might just be potential new supporters of Jackal. DSMers who are not made out to be very smart, simply because of their participation here on our site. DSMers like you. There seems to be a distorted distinction made between DSMtuners members and DSM owners in general, which seems a little ridiculous when you think about it. A DSMer is a DSMer. I'm guessing so long as the hostility is allowed and promoted over there, we will have a tough time keeping any Jackal discussion in order over here. I hope that changes at some point.

Apparently, it's assumed that because Jackal's main competitor is a supporting vendor on DSMtuners that there can't be a fair discussion in our forums about it. Anyone who has been here for a long period of time, or has talked to me directly will tell you that these accusations are baseless and to a degree, slanderous. I've always done my best to be fair in how we moderate these forums. I don't think I've ever given anyone a legit reason not to trust this site as being unbiased. I suppose that we also do whatever we can to piss on the Holset turbo threads because FP is a vendor here too (sarcasm)? There has never been any direction given to the moderators to shut down any threads due to supporting vendor influence. A supporting vendor may have pointed out rule violations just like any other member, but they don't receive special considerations in these types of decisions. If you'd like to discuss this, PM me and explain your experience. Please do not reply about it here.

In the end, everyone is free to have their own opinion. But I will not sit back and allow people to post vicious attacks and baseless accusations - about us or others - here in this discussion or elsewhere on our site, even if it's allowed on other sites. I don't think it helps the DSM community and I won't be a part of that type of cancer-spreading vessel.

As the site owner, I know what I do sets the tone for our members and I will keep trying to take the high road on this and keep the standards higher around here - regardless of how much I'm attacked elsewhere. Read those attacks carefully and consider the reasons they're being posted and by whom. You might just find the humor in it. And you might even notice a case of multiple personalities, with people acting much differently than they do here and over there - which seems just a little hypocritical when rooted in accusations about me having the hidden agenda.

Regardless of what you might read, most of us who provide products or services in the DSM world DO care about the community. I'm sure Tom Dorris cares about the DSM community. Lord knows he could probably do better for himself focusing on a different model car these days. And I'm sure the Jackal developers care about the community too. But trying to make everyone else out to be a villain doesn't mean you care more and it's counterproductive in terms of the community's growth, even if it might work well to build passionate loyalty.

If people are going to participate in this discussion, it will remain respectful and people will act mature. If you see something you feel crosses the line, report it to a moderator and/or PM me directly. We'll do our best to handle the situation fairly. We'll keep deleting the troll posts in order to keep things informative for as long as we can.

If you want to reply to my post, PM me. Don't reply to it in this thread or we will remove your reply. Not because we're trying to silence you or squash all dissenting comments, but so that this discussion has a chance at staying on topic. It's a topic that is more appropriate discussed privately - that is, if you're truly interested in discussing it and not continuing the witch hunt.

bastarddsm said:

I will agree that link has a much better logging solution. But how important is the much higher speed that link logs at? I am pretty sure that aldl logging allows more data resolution with less parameters monitored. So if your only logging RPM, Knock, A/F, you will have more than enough data to get a tune dialed in. Having too much data can be worse than not enough.

The RPM based slider tuning isn't really a feature. Thats a band aide for people that are either scared or not intelligent enough to tune with load and RPM like the rest of the world.

Any of the features you list (even slider tuning) can be done with an ostrich and a modded E931 code. Most of them are simply not worth the time to anyone intelligent enough to actually get it done.

The gm maf could easily be added with an ostrich, but once your outflowing a 2gmaf or evo maf you have usually grown up enough to go to speed density.

Click to expand...

Agreed on all points. On the logger, work is mostly done on the editor, and Hak has turned his attention to the logger. We all know the speed could be improved, and I'm confident that it will in time. For now, it is adequate, and I have no doubts it will become better in the future.

One of the benefits of Jackal is the community. You won't find a better place for help. The mentality is that, if you want to make your car faster, you should learn to tune yourself, not have someone tune your car for you. Therefore, I think we all try our best to educate the new members as to how to tune. It really isn't that hard - you can't imagine the number of people who haven't touched a tuning software before but still picked up VE tuning very quickly. That is why I believe there is no reason to have sliders such as Link has - you don't need them if the user is educated enough on how to use a map.

I think the vast majority of Jackal users are the DIY type. They like doing things themselves, and learning how to do it. Furthermore, if they have a chance to save a few bucks, they'll take it. Since the software is free, you can make it as cheap as you want. You can pick up all the parts used, and save money by making your own wiring harness and things like that.

SpeedAddict62 said:

That is why I believe there is no reason to have sliders such as Link has - you don't need them if the user is educated enough on how to use a map.

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I like your choice of the term "educated" as opposed to "intelligent", which was used by a poster above. It seems a bit more appropriate. Intelligent people can easily be uneducated or inexperienced in various subjects.