95blackGsTurbo said:

11.8:1 isn't "lean" for E85. You can get well into the mid-high 12's for AFR and still be completely safe. This car was tuning in the mid-high 12's for AFR and 22+ degree's timing across the board.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/350097-wingz-performance-hta35r-701-59hp-2.html

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just wanted to add that ever AFR we are talking about is an immaginary AFR, because the scale is for gasoline and we are using E85 so the acctualy AFR when your gauge shows: 12.5:1 is = 8.3:1 !!
because stoich with gasoline is 14.7:1 and the AFR gauge is just messuring lambda and think it is gasoline. (btw. 9.76:1 is the real stoich E85 so that is what your accutaly running when your guage shows 14.7:1)

I just try to make everything with lambda, so my fueltables show lambda, that is way less confusing when you have different maps for different fuel (just my opinion)

maximum lean power with E85 is at lambda 0.8673
maximum rich power with E85 is at lambda 0.71

in my opinion its no problem to hit the 0.86 and not running any richer or leaner.
Why? because your injecting 40% more fuel than you would with normal gas, and E85 burns colder.
there is no need for "safty"... (btw. 0.86 would be 12.75 on your gasonline AFR guage)

Good response, I forgot to mention the scaling.

dsm-onster said:

Boostest is only accurate and should only be used as a tuning tool from 5-5.5K for evos and dsm with stock manifolds. You have an evo manifold, so you qualify. At this point, even if it's not accurate, there's a huge DIFFERENCE at that is what is important. Since the ecu's job is to be more consistant than a carburetor, if the ecu is reading a drastically different number with the same hotside, then there is a real problem with metering the air of one of the runs. . .

This would be a boost leak most likely. . .

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PV=nRT

Tell me what happens if T changes................

snooopy365 said:

maximum lean power with E85 is at lambda 0.8673
maximum rich power with E85 is at lambda 0.71

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Thanks for the max lean/rich power with E85 using the Lambda value... Just so I (and others) can understand this though theres a mathematical equation to calculate the Air/Fuel ratio from the Lambda correct?

You said the max lean Lambda value of E85 is 0.86 = 12.75:1 on an AFR gauge. I'm assuming to get that you took 14.64 (stoich pump gas AFR) x the Lambda value. (in this case was 0.86)

14.64 X 0.86 = 12.6:1 on the gauge for max LEAN power
14.64 X 0.71 = 10.4:1 on the gauge for max RICH power

And if STOICH on my gauge is 14.64:1 running E85, when really I'm running a 9.76:1 AFR can't I LEAN out my closed loop/idle a bit and get better gas mileage?

Is this correct or I'm I nuking it?

danl said:

PV=nRT

Tell me what happens if T changes................

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Ideal gas law that relates the pressure and volume to the temperature and the mass of the gas, if the gas behaves according to it then its considered an ideal gas.

More for dsm-onster, but yes. Depending on how dsmlink is calculating boost estimated it will read more boost just because more lbs/min is flowing. You can flow more lbs/min at the same boost with cooler charge temps.

Also on my personal limited testing thus far on the 68hta I am keeping incredible compressor efficiency upwards of 28-30psi. Better than 50 trim T4 compressor, but I have much more testing to do.

The increase in bostest could also be explained by the "hot side tweaks" said to be made by fp on that turbo.

Doing the 3rd gear pull with the same intake temps to keep my Airflow & BoostEst jiving with my other HTA68 log ( ) I took some fuel out using my sliders and added 2* of timing across the board.

I got off the throttle at 6.5k because I glanced down and saw knock on the log, (even though I have my CEL blink at 1*) I'm still debating whether its real or not. I'm saying it is real knock so I'm dropping my timing sliders at 4.5k and then bring it back up at 6k to redline.

Heres the link to the updated 3rd gear log ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachments/log-file-advice/107884d1269582316-tuning-e85-afr-reading-log.2010.03.25-02.elg

If any of you could help me with this issue I'm having doing these E85 AFR's on the WB that would be great... http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/log-file-advice/366073-tuning-e85-afr-reading.html

I feel like I'm tuning blind even with my WB since I have no idea which reading to go off of.

danl said:

PV=nRT

Tell me what happens if T changes................

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No joke. His IAT is up 30+ degrees with the e3 16g log. At the inlet: PV / T = nR ".................."


Boostest is way off. The e3 16g was being run with 105*F IATs while the hta68 was seeing 75*F IATs. The difference in flow isn't as broad as one would initially conclude. Boostest assumes a certain T, +/- 75*F . That's where the discrepancy lies with the boost vs. boostest at 5-5500rpms. AND, accounts for a significant part of the difference in massflow which is proportional to n. But not all, so there was some gain there. So I was wrong that the meter was off. But correct that the test wasn't a fair comparison for the e3 16g at all. However it is difficult to mimic ALL the variables at once.

Great to see someone directly compare these turbos gofer. Best thing is that you are saying it holds better to redline. Ask danl what happens when a turbo holds boost better to redline, PV=nRT.

Third log: E85, HTA68, and FP2 cams...
AFR's - 11.8:1 Timing - 13* Max Airflow - 41 lbs min @ 7k Boost - 21psi HP est - 372 hp TQ est - 321 ft lbs

Would the HP and TQ logged be equivalent to the Mustang or dynojet dyno?

eazy2g said:

Third log: E85, HTA68, and FP2 cams...
AFR's - 11.8:1 Timing - 13* Max Airflow - 41 lbs min @ 7k Boost - 21psi HP est - 372 hp TQ est - 321 ft lbs

Would the HP and TQ logged be equivalent to the Mustang or dynojet dyno?

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Thats a good question Eazy2g and have wondered myself. The HP/TQ number estimates in link use the gear ratio and weight of the car to factor the estimated HP/TQ numbers that are logged. I haven't weighed my car on a scale so I have it set in link as 3400lbs and the gearing is what it was set at for a 2g.

When I had my car tuned on a Dynapack dyno at RRE I found that those HP/TQ estimates were DAMN close to what I was putting up on the dyno. I'd say + or - 10 hp even... It also depends on if the road is flat, the IAT is nominal (70*) I believe, etc. etc. So there are some factors that go into estimating those numbers in dsmlink but, according to my dyno numbers and link HP/TQ estimates they were close.

^^^


I see. I'm wondering because I have a similar set up and we have the "heartbreaker" (mustang) dyno here. And I'm almost ready to bring my car in. I've been searching around and you seem to be the only one with any actual data on this thing...Which I'm glad someone finally does so that I'm not expecting some crazy numbers when I'm finally done. We'll see. The last major thing i have to do is my clutch kit. Then I'll post my data after I take it in..

eazy2g said:

^^^


I see. I'm wondering because I have a similar set up and we have the "heartbreaker" (mustang) dyno here. And I'm almost ready to bring my car in. I've been searching around and you seem to be the only one with any actual data on this thing...Which I'm glad someone finally does so that I'm not expecting some crazy numbers when I'm finally done. We'll see. The last major thing i have to do is my clutch kit. Then I'll post my data after I take it in..

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Numbers don't really interest me just timeslips, but for what its worth after the street tune on my setup dsmlink HP/TQ est. are showing around 415hp/370tq.

I plan on going up to RRE in the next month to get ACTUAL numbers and a dyno tune.

gofer said:

Numbers don't really interest me just timeslips, but for what its worth after the street tune on my setup dsmlink HP/TQ est. are showing around 415hp/370tq.

I plan on going up to RRE in the next month to get ACTUAL numbers and a dyno tune.

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I agree with you on the time slips, but I also believe that those numbers are related to the out come of the slip. Anyway, we'll see I'm just not over expecting anything out of it...

Heres what the HTA68 numbers are looking like now with leaner AFR's and more timing advance. I found a boost leak at a IC coupler and one INSIDE my HRC front mount thats not repairable, I'll be getting a new VR Speed Factory FMIC setup here shortly to fix the problem.
Anyway heres the log running 25lbs boost, 12.0 ~ 12.5:1 AFR's, & 17* of timing advance. I trapped 89.4mph (not sure the time since they cut it off my timeslip) but the speed looked pretty damn good for a mid 12 second pass in the 1/4. This log I missed 2nd gear if you can't tell, I forgot to start a log on my one clean run of the night so this is the best your gonna get for now.

You'll notice my COLD intake temps. My first run I left the passengerside headlight in and logged 105* to 85* during my run... after removing the headlight I was getting 75* to 60* intake temps. From here on out it's a given I'm removing my headlight everytime I go to the track.

When are you going to run more boost?

Not being able to hold high boost 35+ was teh biggest loss with the 16G for me.

turbotalon1g said:

When are you going to run more boost?

Not being able to hold high boost 35+ was teh biggest loss with the 16G for me.

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Never. I DD this car, my motor will never see more than 30psi even after I build the head. The head bolts & original HG with 95k on it are seeing 25psi right now, that to me is alittle extreme for a DD...

The stock bolts and gasket are under rated. I used to run 25 psi on 92 pump with a few different turbo setups. I don't think you'll have any issues going a little higher. As long as there are no pressure spikes (detonation), it will be fine.

GVR4592 said:

The stock bolts and gasket are under rated. I used to run 25 psi on 92 pump with a few different turbo setups. I don't think you'll have any issues going a little higher. As long as there are no pressure spikes (detonation), it will be fine.

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The 7-bolt headbolts are much smaller than the 6-bolt. They are 11mm versus the 6-bolt 12mm. But, the difference is actually much larger. The 7-bolt bolts, although having only a 1mm smaller thread, have an almost 2mm smaller shank.

Damn Cory that thing is really moving now.

roostinds said:

Damn Cory that thing is really moving now.

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Now it just needs a driver mod and it should be in the mid 12's. Sams tuning it on the dyno on Friday night, we'll see what it actually puts down to the wheels after Sam's Chino Toon.

How are your cold starts in the morning with E85. What kind of numbers you hoping to see off the dyno??

roostinds said:

How are your cold starts in the morning with E85. What kind of numbers you hoping to see off the dyno??

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I crank it for 5 seconds, STOP, crank it for 5 and then it starts right up... Just for that initial 5 seconds worries passengers, haha, they don't think its going to turn on.
Links guess-timations of HP/TQ are right at 400hp/370tq in my logs, if I could do 380hp/350tq I'll be happy.

Did you get to put it on the dyno already?

I've been looking at those 68hta's. If you ever want to trade your hta for an hx40 let me know! Till then I'll be watching this thread...

e85_4g63 said:

I've been looking at those 68hta's. If you ever want to trade your hta for an hx40 let me know! Till then I'll be watching this thread...

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PM me about the hx40, I might take you on that offer. I just installed mine and haven't even boosted it yet. Check my bogs if you want to see it.