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90-GST

10+ Year Contributor
106
1
Aug 15, 2008
St. Louis, Missouri
Sorry in advance for the book. I'm trying to put in as many details as possible so it's easier to diagnose.








I was driving the car the other day, and the battery light and brake light came on out of no where. While these lights were on, the headlights were dim and the car didn't want to move, but if I pushed the clutch in and reved up a bit, the lights would go off and the car acted normal. I got on the highway and headed home, and the car would randomly throw the battery and brake light on, but if I reved it up a bit, it would go off.

At one point, I was passing someone and the lights came on, and before I could let off, the car backfired super loud. I pulled over and shit the car off, hoping it might do something, and then restarted it. When I did, it ran pretty rough and wanted to die(the 2 lights were on). Shut it off again and it wouldn't start. I just got a loud buzzing similar to the game "Operation" coming from what sounded like behind the head unit. So I called a friend, and he headed out to pick me up. I periodically attempted to start it while waiting, and after about 10-15 minutes it decided to start, so I took advantage of it, and drove about 10 miles to a rest area and pulled off there, where I met my friend, and he jumped the car(I had turned it off and it wouldn't start again). We let it charge up, and I took it the extra 5 miles home where I put it in the garage until I could get my hands on a multimeter. I got one today and checked the battery, and it kept arcing when I attempted to.

I thought my amp was grounding out, so I unhooked it and still got the arcing, so I bought a battery. When I got it back to the house, I realized that my friend had hooked the positive cable into the wrong hole, and I swapped it and it started reading. By that time, I had set the battery on the garage floor(concrete) for about 5 minutes, and it read about .510 volts(I wouldn't think it would lose so much charge so fast?). The new battery read 12.8 volts. I put the new battery in, and hooked everything up and started the car. When I did, the ran a little rough, had a loud ticking noise, and the wideband was reading about 17-19, instead of the normal 13-14.

While the car was running, the multimeter read 12.04(with parking lamps on) and 11.8(with headlights on). The battery light was also showing, and I had my ebake up the whole time, so I can't know if the brake light was on randomly too. When I shut the car off, the multimeter read 12.7 at the battery. I'm thinking it might be the alternator? But am not really sure how to check it without taking it off.



As for the ticking noise, I noticed my oil was low, and filled it up. It kept making the noise, and I let it run for a bit as I checked the voltage again. It started to get quieter as it warmed up, but I didn't let it run much longer than that. The noise seems like it's coming from the intake plenum almost, but I can't pinpoint the noise, and can't get low enough to tell if it coming from the bottom end either.



A video is uploading right now, and will be posted as soon as it is done. It is showing the car idling with the ticking noise, as well as the wideband at 16-17, the battery light on, and the boost gauge sitting at about -10.
 
dude its your alternator... LOL that is a book! your alternator is what keeps your battery CHARGED while the cars running, if its not charging your battery eventually its going to die. it revs up funny because the ECU is trying to maintain the voltage it needs to keep the car on (revs up higher to spin the alternator faster)
alternators dead dude.
i don't see the video up yet but im going to go out there and say its your OEM lifters, its normal to hear them tick.

:dsm:
 
Video


<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid2.photobucket.com/albums/y42/TylerElder/MOV04659.flv">
 
first off i would test the alternator witch sound like it is bad
second i would assume the worst and check your rod bearings
and for play or splitting pulleys.

when you rev up dose dose the sound come on at about 2-3k rpms and go away after that?
 
At one point, I was passing someone and the lights came on, and before I could let off, the car backfired super loud. I pulled over and shit the car off, hoping it might do something, and then restarted it. When I did, it ran pretty rough and wanted to die(the 2 lights were on). Shut it off again and it wouldn't start. I just got a loud buzzing similar to the game "Operation" coming from what sounded like behind the head unit. So I called a friend, and he headed out to pick me up. I periodically attempted to start it while waiting, and after about 10-15 minutes it decided to start, so I took advantage of it, and drove about 10 miles to a rest area and pulled off there, where I met my friend, and he jumped the car(I had turned it off and it wouldn't start again). We let it charge up, and I took it the extra 5 miles home where I put it in the garage until I could get my hands on a multimeter. I got one today and checked the battery, and it kept arcing when I attempted to.

I like how you "shit" the car off.

But yeah, alternator. I read like 40 of these threads when mine went out, and yours sounds exactly like 35 of them.
 
It is showing the car idling with the ticking noise, as well as the wideband at 16-17, the battery light on, and the boost gauge sitting at about -10.
after watching that video upload i retract my previous theory of the lifter tick diagnoses. in my book of definitions that is not a tick, thats a KNOCK. you've got dsmlink so do a log of it idling and attach it, you can tell more from a log than a video with noise...

:dsm:
 
I like how you "shit" the car off.

But yeah, alternator. I read like 40 of these threads when mine went out, and yours sounds exactly like 35 of them.

Haha, typo. I'm thinking it is my alternator too, but don't really know how to check it without taking it off and up to an auto parts store.





And I will get a log and post it up as soon as I can. Thanks for the input guys.

Here is an idle log I just took.
 

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  • log.2010.02.19-02.elg
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im at work and for some odd reason navy computers don't have dsmlink on them... :aha: haha. i promise ill look at your log when i get home tho, theres got to be something up that you can see in the log.

:dsm:
 
im at work and for some odd reason navy computers don't have dsmlink on them... :aha: haha. i promise ill look at your log when i get home tho, theres got to be something up that you can see in the log.

:dsm:

Thanks. I tried to add any values I thought might be important.

I've understood that the alternator is bad and I need to replace it, but I still need help understanding if this is a rod knock, injector tick, or something along those lines. I'm not really sure how to check to see if the motor is shot without taking the oil pan off and inspecting stuff.
 
dude. that log you posted doesn't help, its like 10 seconds long. start the car and let it warm up for 5 minutes... while its warming up go into link and get it all setup, and you need to capture closedloop and combinedft. once it warms up and your capturing/displaying those two extra values start your log... let it idle for atleast 60 seconds JUST idling and then post it up on here.
from what i can see in those 10 seconds and looking at your sliders you haven't done any of your MAFcomp sliders which you definitely need to and your Timing sliders look all wacked out, you should zero those things.
while your doing your 60 second log you should watch the fronto2 reading, it should be cycling between .2 ~ .8 volts (up and down) in the log while your cars idling. if its not you should be throwing a DTC code in dsmlink 0125 excessive time to enter closed loop fuel control. if that does happen go to the ECU inputs tab and select the "lock front o2 voltage" and see if your car idles any differently after you save it to the ECU.

post up that log.

:dsm:
 
dude. that log you posted doesn't help, its like 10 seconds long. start the car and let it warm up for 5 minutes... while its warming up go into link and get it all setup, and you need to capture closedloop and combinedft. once it warms up and your capturing/displaying those two extra values start your log... let it idle for atleast 60 seconds JUST idling and then post it up on here.
from what i can see in those 10 seconds and looking at your sliders you haven't done any of your MAFcomp sliders which you definitely need to and your Timing sliders look all wacked out, you should zero those things.
while your doing your 60 second log you should watch the fronto2 reading, it should be cycling between .2 ~ .8 volts (up and down) in the log while your cars idling. if its not you should be throwing a DTC code in dsmlink 0125 excessive time to enter closed loop fuel control. if that does happen go to the ECU inputs tab and select the "lock front o2 voltage" and see if your car idles any differently after you save it to the ECU.

post up that log.

:dsm:
I'll do that tomorrow. I know the front o2 is bad, and have tried changing it a few times, but it's as if the sensor is welded in and I haven't been able to get it out to replace it yet.


You'll be able to tell if there is a spun bearing or something along those lines just through a log of idle?
 
Update:

So I bought some revised lifters and installed them. Also replaced 2 couplers that I thought might be leaking, as well as the battery and alternator.

Started the car up, and it started fine. After about a minute, it died. I was really low on gas, so I figured that would be it, and put another 1.5 gallons of 93 in. Still didn't want to start or run. It ran when I would feather the gas a bit, but then it would idle really low and die. I also have to give it some gas for it to start, and when running, it smells rich, but that could just be the wind blowing the exhaust back into the garage. Lifters also tapped, but it only ran a total of 3 minutes or so, and that might be why.

Wideband reads 16-14 when running, no new CEL's, timing seems fine, firing order is right. and battery is reading normal volts now. I can't think of a reason it would be doing this. Any ideas?
 

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  • log.2010.03.09-01.elg
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Update:

So I bought some revised lifters and installed them. Also replaced 2 couplers that I thought might be leaking, as well as the battery and alternator.

Started the car up, and it started fine. After about a minute, it died. I was really low on gas, so I figured that would be it, and put another 1.5 gallons of 93 in. Still didn't want to start or run. It ran when I would feather the gas a bit, but then it would idle really low and die. I also have to give it some gas for it to start, and when running, it smells rich, but that could just be the wind blowing the exhaust back into the garage. Lifters also tapped, but it only ran a total of 3 minutes or so, and that might be why.

Wideband reads 16-14 when running, no new CEL's, timing seems fine, firing order is right. and battery is reading normal volts now. I can't think of a reason it would be doing this. Any ideas?
your car won't idle if its stuck in closed loop due to a bad front o2 sensor... you have DSMLINK so you can get your car to idle without a front o2 sensor. :aha:
like i said before...
don't start the car just turn the key to the "ON" position. next connect with dsmlink and go to the ECUInputs tab and select the lock front o2 voltage then try to start the car...

:dsm:
 
your car won't idle if its stuck in closed loop due to a bad front o2 sensor... you have DSMLINK so you can get your car to idle without a front o2 sensor. :aha:
like i said before...
don't start the car just turn the key to the "ON" position. next connect with dsmlink and go to the ECUInputs tab and select the lock front o2 voltage then try to start the car...

:dsm:

I'll try that. Although nothing has changed in the tune, and I have v3 so I didn't lose it when I took the battery out. I've checked through the tune a bit to see if anything was lost and it all looks about right. But I'll try that out sometime tonight and get back to you. Thanks for the help. And sexy wing btw.












EDIT: Did what you said, and still nothing. The car almost started the first time I turned the key, sputtered a bit, and then died. After that it was all the same as before. I took another log incase it might help in some way....
 

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  • log.2010.03.10-01.elg
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Last edited:
what bothers me is you selected to simulate your front o2 sensor and its still not cycling in your log. :rolleyes:
whatever youve done in link start over buddy... you said you checked your timing and its dead on? your seeing anywhere between 35 to 37* of timing at idle!!! normally at idle you would be seeing 5 to 10* of timing, you might want to check your timing again. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/306607-1g-2g-quick-timing-belt-alignment-check.html#post151596536
may i ask who tuned your car? those timing/fuel sliders only apply at WOT but they look all jacked up.

after you check your timing
i went back and read your original post and you said this... "When I got it back to the house, I realized that my friend had hooked the positive cable into the wrong hole, and I swapped it and it started reading."
this caught my attention because if you hook the battery up backwards on the car (or try to jump start it backwards) you'll fry your ECU. i know its connecting in link (obviously) but you might want to pull it out and give it a visual and sniff check.

after you check the ECU
connect in link and go to your Misc tab. select lock in open loop mode if locking the ECU in open loop mode doesn't solve anything your next step is to start from the top. is the engine getting fuel? spark? and then once you verify those two are g2g do a BLT. who knows, you might have left something disconnected when you did your lifters and alternator.

that timing looks WRONG at idle and it worries me, definitely double check and make sure its good. i don't know how you installed your revised lifters but hopefully if you removed your cams and did it that way you put everything back on correctly...

:dsm:
 
what bothers me is you selected to simulate your front o2 sensor and its still not cycling in your log. :rolleyes:
whatever youve done in link start over buddy... you said you checked your timing and its dead on? your seeing anywhere between 35 to 37* of timing at idle!!! normally at idle you would be seeing 5 to 10* of timing, you might want to check your timing again. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/306607-1g-2g-quick-timing-belt-alignment-check.html#post151596536
may i ask who tuned your car? those timing/fuel sliders only apply at WOT but they look all jacked up.

after you check your timing
i went back and read your original post and you said this... "When I got it back to the house, I realized that my friend had hooked the positive cable into the wrong hole, and I swapped it and it started reading."
this caught my attention because if you hook the battery up backwards on the car (or try to jump start it backwards) you'll fry your ECU. i know its connecting in link (obviously) but you might want to pull it out and give it a visual and sniff check.

after you check the ECU
connect in link and go to your Misc tab. select lock in open loop mode if locking the ECU in open loop mode doesn't solve anything your next step is to start from the top. is the engine getting fuel? spark? and then once you verify those two are g2g do a BLT. who knows, you might have left something disconnected when you did your lifters and alternator.

that timing looks WRONG at idle and it worries me, definitely double check and make sure its good. i don't know how you installed your revised lifters but hopefully if you removed your cams and did it that way you put everything back on correctly...

:dsm:

Talking about connecting backwards was the multimeter. I was pretty much explaining why I bought a new battery.


I'm going to re check the timing as per that link you just sent me. And I'm going to do a BLT as well. I'm also quintuple checking my plug wires as the idea just keeps popping in my head that I have it wrong. I'll get back to you later today when I do all these things. Thanks for all the help.
 
So I let it warm up a bit the other day and it started to idle on its own, roughly though. I could hear a lifter or 5 get quiet while it idled, but there are still a few that are being a bit loud. So I shut it off, and the next day warmed it up again, and took it for a small drive. Went and got some gas, then drove a mile down the road and the CEL came on for "too long to enter closed loop fuel control". Haven't driven it or messed with it since then.

While I was driving it, it was as if I had to rev the car up to brake, otherwise I had the same braking ability that I have when the key is out of the ignition. Also had to rev the car up to take off, because a low rpm start in 1st gear gave me about 0 power and almost got me hit a couple times. Just kind of weird to me.

The o2 sensor has been out since I bought the car, and I've tried replacing it multiple times, but it just doesn't want to come out of my o2 housing. I don't see how this could all of a sudden cause that CEL to pop up, unless it is because I was driving with the front o2 sensor voltage locked?

I'm considering pulling the VC back off and re-priming the lifters again, to make sure they're done right, and hoping that will fix it. I can't think of much else that would cause this problem.
 
So I let it warm up a bit the other day and it started to idle on its own, roughly though. I could hear a lifter or 5 get quiet while it idled, but there are still a few that are being a bit loud. So I shut it off, and the next day warmed it up again, and took it for a small drive. Went and got some gas, then drove a mile down the road and the CEL came on for "too long to enter closed loop fuel control". Haven't driven it or messed with it since then.

While I was driving it, it was as if I had to rev the car up to brake, otherwise I had the same braking ability that I have when the key is out of the ignition. Also had to rev the car up to take off, because a low rpm start in 1st gear gave me about 0 power and almost got me hit a couple times. Just kind of weird to me.

The o2 sensor has been out since I bought the car, and I've tried replacing it multiple times, but it just doesn't want to come out of my o2 housing. I don't see how this could all of a sudden cause that CEL to pop up, unless it is because I was driving with the front o2 sensor voltage locked?

I'm considering pulling the VC back off and re-priming the lifters again, to make sure they're done right, and hoping that will fix it. I can't think of much else that would cause this problem.

Before you go to the trouble of checking the lifters etc. etc. go to your Misc tab in link and select the lock in open loop mode button... that should solve your crappy idle problems and the car will be driveable until you get that front o2 replaced.

Your lifters will tick until you get oil up in the head, to do that you need to increase your oil pressure. After you lock the car in open loop get it up to speed, about 55mph for 5 minutes and that should get rid of the obnoxious lifter tick.

:dsm:
 
Before you go to the trouble of checking the lifters etc. etc. go to your Misc tab in link and select the lock in open loop mode button... that should solve your crappy idle problems and the car will be driveable until you get that front o2 replaced.

Your lifters will tick until you get oil up in the head, to do that you need to increase your oil pressure. After you lock the car in open loop get it up to speed, about 55mph for 5 minutes and that should get rid of the obnoxious lifter tick.

:dsm:

I did that last time you told me to. The car has been locked in open loop for a few days now. It was locked when I took it for a drive as well. (the o2 has been out for a good while now. Months actually. It is almost welded into the o2 housing and I've made multiple attempts to get it out with no avail.)

And I was planning to take the car for a drive to increase oil pressure and get rid of the lifter tick, but about a mile down the road, the CEL came on and it barely wanted to move.
 
I did that last time you told me to. The car has been locked in open loop for a few days now. It was locked when I took it for a drive as well. (the o2 has been out for a good while now. Months actually. It is almost welded into the o2 housing and I've made multiple attempts to get it out with no avail.)

And I was planning to take the car for a drive to increase oil pressure and get rid of the lifter tick, but about a mile down the road, the CEL came on and it barely wanted to move.

... then unlock open loop and try to drive it. :coy:

You need to get rogue on that damn front o2 sensor, go to Auto Zone or any car parts place and get a can of PB Blaster. With the car cold dousche your front o2 sensor with that stuff and let it sit for 5 minutes. Then go out there with a breaker bar and don't walk away until you've cracked the sensor loose or you break your breaker bar. From personal experience cussing and yelling at it tend to scare it loose too. If it still doesn't want to come out then start the car and let it warm up a bit (the PB blaster will smoke off) then try to break it loose with the car warm. *CAUTION* it can get hot so be careful!

:dsm:
 
... then unlock open loop and try to drive it. :coy:

You need to get rogue on that damn front o2 sensor, go to Auto Zone or any car parts place and get a can of PB Blaster. With the car cold dousche your front o2 sensor with that stuff and let it sit for 5 minutes. Then go out there with a breaker bar and don't walk away until you've cracked the sensor loose or you break your breaker bar. From personal experience cussing and yelling at it tend to scare it loose too. If it still doesn't want to come out then start the car and let it warm up a bit (the PB blaster will smoke off) then try to break it loose with the car warm. *CAUTION* it can get hot so be careful!

:dsm:

I'll try unlocking it.


And I have literally done all of those things, LOL. I couldn't have gotten more PB on it if it was submerged in the stuff. And it didn't change a thing. Gonna try a torch on it, and if that doesn't work, my last resort is to take the o2 housing off, and lock the sensor in a vice while I turn the housing, haha.
 
have you tried a compression test? in the video your vacuum looked like around -10hg at idle. should be around -20hg at idle if your car is timed right with good valves, rings and head gasket.
don't forget about the backfire. something happened there...

check your oil for metalic flakes.
that tick is bad news.

did the tick go away with the new lifters? how many minutes has the car ran since you installed them? how did everything look when you took off the valve cover?everything in it's right place?
new 3mm lifters should shut up in about 30 seconds from a fresh start. unless there is a oil pressure problem. 1000-2000 rpm is enough oil pressure to fill lifters.

it would suck if the alternator caused your fuel pump to lean out(due to low volts) while you were driving and you detonated or something to cause that tick.

good luck!

At one point, I was passing someone and the lights came on, and before I could let off, the car backfired super loud.
 
have you tried a compression test? in the video your vacuum looked like around -10hg at idle. should be around -20hg at idle if your car is timed right with good valves, rings and head gasket.
don't forget about the backfire. something happened there...

check your oil for metalic flakes.
that tick is bad news.

did the tick go away with the new lifters? how many minutes has the car ran since you installed them? how did everything look when you took off the valve cover?everything in it's right place?
new 3mm lifters should shut up in about 30 seconds from a fresh start. unless there is a oil pressure problem. 1000-2000 rpm is enough oil pressure to fill lifters.

it would suck if the alternator caused your fuel pump to lean out(due to low volts) while you were driving and you detonated or something to cause that tick.

good luck!

At one point, I was passing someone and the lights came on, and before I could let off, the car backfired super loud.

I haven't tried a compression test. After cams, the car normally idled around -12 to -15hg. Now it is about -7hg to -10hg.

The backfire was caused by the fuel pump leaning out because of a lack of voltage. There was nothing out of the ordinary afterwards as far as sounds and what not.

The tick got A LOT quieter after the lifters were installed. I still have a tick, but it sounds like some loud lifters, and not something broken.

When I replaced them, I inspected everything I could see in the head. I see nothing out of the ordinary; no broken springs, or anything of that sort. I did break a bolt hole on the valve cover by putting the wrong bolt in that was too long, but that was in one of the timing cover screws, and after I replaced the lifters. I found it when I pulled the VC off to double check everything in the head.

















And now for a little update. I just got back from driving the car ~15 miles. Mostly highway as well. I'm still having a slight ticking from the lifters, and still have a braking problem. (if I don't rev the car to 2500+ the brakes act like the car is off and don't work too well at all. After car is reved they act normal.) The car also seems like it is lacking low end torque, but I assume that is caused by whatever is going wrong with this thing.

I took a few logs, which I included below. It looks, to me, like my timing is really high. It wasn't that high before all this happened, and nothing has been changed in the tune. It also seems like my battery voltage is really low at highway speeds. But give me some insight on these things and let me know if you have any ideas. I'm still thinking about pulling the lifters out and re-priming them to see if it helps.




First log should be startup, although I think I saved over it, in which case the first two logs will be the same. If not, second log is driving down the road a bit before hopping on the highway. Third will be the first leg of the highway, and fourth will be the second leg of the highway. And fifth is an idle once I got home.
 

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  • log.2010.03.15-01-startup.elg
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  • log.2010.03.15-01.elg
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  • log.2010.03.15-02-highway.elg
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  • log.2010.03.15-02-highway-2.elg
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  • log.2010.03.15-02-idle.elg
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It looks, to me, like my timing is really high. It wasn't that high before all this happened, and nothing has been changed in the tune.
Like I said a few posts back, your timing seems high it should be around 5* at idle since thats your base timing. Your timing belt is probably off a few teeth, check your timing IAW that link I sent you Mar. 10th. After you check and make sure the crank is at TDC and the notch in your cam gears a perfect then pull out a timing light.

My timing belt jumped a few teeth randomly, thank god I didn't bend any valves but when I heard the god awful sound the car was making I got it towed and then checked my timing. Hopefully you get lucky... That front o2 sensor is for sure bad but you've got bigger problems right now, MAKE 100% sure your timing is set to 5* at idle because links showing 30* plus.

:dsm:
 
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