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Lancer Evolution III Intake Manifold

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matthewdesigns,

Interesting data. I'd suggest cams. The intake manifold is biasing the intake tuning towards the high end, but your stock cams are not. This ends up really wiping out the gains you'd normally see with the intake manifold. With higher duration cams, you are going to see some eye opening gains that will magnify what the normal person would see with cams alone.
I think you'll be impressed.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to getting some in there. I'm hoping to see 40-50HP even with just 264's...thanks for your suggestion on those the other day. A friend of mine locally is running HKS 264's as well, and really likes them, they didn't need any degreeing, etc., so I think that's what I'm going to shoot for picking up.
 
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to getting some in there. I'm hoping to see 40-50HP even with just 264's...thanks for your suggestion on those the other day. A friend of mine locally is running HKS 264's as well, and really likes them, they didn't need any degreeing, etc., so I think that's what I'm going to shoot for picking up.

It sounds like you did your comparison logs with the stock exhaust in both cases? If thats the case, it doesn't surprise me at all that the gains were minimal with the new intake mani. The stock exhaust is a huge restriction, especially in the upper-mid to upper rpms where the evoIII mani is designed to shine. If the stock exhaust is already chocking your flow, it only makes sense that adding a better flowing intake mani isn't going to add much flow.

Defently would have been better to get before/after data with the exhaust flowing properly. If your only flowing 34lb/min at 24-26psi, your defently missing some airflow, at that boost level on an evoIII turbo you should be in the 40lb/min range. My buddy runs an evoIII & he sees something like 38lb/min at 22ish psi & thats with stock cams & back when he had a stock 2g IM (now has evoIII as well).
 
daren_p said:
It sounds like you did your comparison logs with the stock exhaust in both cases? If thats the case, it doesn't surprise me at all that the gains were minimal with the new intake mani. The stock exhaust is a huge restriction, especially in the upper-mid to upper rpms where the evoIII mani is designed to shine. If the stock exhaust is already chocking your flow, it only makes sense that adding a better flowing intake mani isn't going to add much flow.

Defently would have been better to get before/after data with the exhaust flowing properly. If your only flowing 34lb/min at 24-26psi, your defently missing some airflow, at that boost level on an evoIII turbo you should be in the 40lb/min range. My buddy runs an evoIII & he sees something like 38lb/min at 22ish psi & thats with stock cams & back when he had a stock 2g IM (now has evoIII as well).

One problem I have is I'm at 6000ft, so I'll see a little less flow for that reason.

I was on the stock catback for those comparisons, but ahead of the catback I've got a 2.5" tubular o2 housing and a 3" catless DP with a 3" cutout. And while I have not had a chance to retune for the cutout opened, I have done a number of comparisons in the past, open vs. closed, and believe it or not, I have only flowed 0.5lb/min more with it open. I do see max airflow 1Krpms earlier with it open, but essentially no better top end flow. At least historically. I hope that will change with this manifold.

I will be retuning with the cutout open this weekend (I hope), so I'll see if it makes a difference.
 
One problem I have is I'm at 6000ft, so I'll see a little less flow for that reason.

I was on the stock catback for those comparisons, but ahead of the catback I've got a 2.5" tubular o2 housing and a 3" catless DP with a 3" cutout. And while I have not had a chance to retune for the cutout opened, I have done a number of comparisons in the past, open vs. closed, and believe it or not, I have only flowed 0.5lb/min more with it open. I do see max airflow 1Krpms earlier with it open, but essentially no better top end flow. At least historically. I hope that will change with this manifold.

I will be retuning with the cutout open this weekend (I hope), so I'll see if it makes a difference.

Ah, didn't happen to notice your location. I think you may still be down abit on flow but that makes your numbers alot more resonable. I wonder why your not seeing much gain on stock vs dump, are the stock cams really that bad? I have the FP1X cams so basically a FP1 type curve (or 264) just "bigger", so their not really top end cams. As I posted way back in this thread somewhere I use to run an Apexi N1 system, that necked down to around 2" inside the resonator, so that should be comparable to a stock exhaust. Then I switched to a true 3" system, with the FP3052 running 24ish psi, FP1X cams & EvoIII intake mani I went from 40 lb/min to 45 lb/min, with no other changes. Both logs done under almost identical conditions (actually N1 log was slightly more favourable conditions, a deg or two cooler) & hp/torque estimates in DSMLink (on exact same portion of road) were both up 40-50 @ 7000rpms. So when coupled with the evoIII mani, my gains from a restrictive to non-restrictive exhaust were huge. I'm sure the cams help overall but I still find it strange that your not seeing bigger gains on stock vs cutout. Will be interesting to see what happens with the new mani.
 
Made some time to do a couple of pulls with the cutout open and fuel coarsely adjusted (smoothed out the timing curve and afr's), and it made no difference in peak flow. Got me there earlier, as usual, but didn't net me any more than the 34lb/min I previously recorded. I hope to get back out in the next couple of weeks to make some finer adjustments, but I'm not expecting much change. HKS 264's over the Winter and hopefully another 50hp with them. :fingers crossed:

Edit: Also starting to wonder how much of a pressure drop this Dejon big smic is creating. Any extra heat b/c of it is not a problem, as I'm on e85, but the core flow might be hurting me.
 
Edit: Also starting to wonder how much of a pressure drop this Dejon big smic is creating. Any extra heat b/c of it is not a problem, as I'm on e85, but the core flow might be hurting me.

Do you recall any initial changes in boost when you first installed the IC? My boost pressure went up ~1psi when I installed mine.
 
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Mine went up as well. My first upgrade was an Alamo smic, and boost went up about 2psi over the stock smic. When I installed the Dejon it went up about another 1psi, but I was only running about 19-20psi total at that point on my E316g. Now I'm basically trying to squeeze as much as possible out of it, so a better designed IC would help a bit. If the endtanks were properly tapered it would probably help even with the size of the Dejon core.
 
I finally got some 264's installed this week (Delta "HKS" 264's) and I am hitting the dyno tomorrow. The numbers under my avatar were on the same dyno this past summer, a Dyno Dynamics...the Heartbreaker LOL, but I have since added the Evo3 intake manifold, a 1g turbo TB, and the cams.

I just drove it for the first time after the cam install late last night, and it feels stronger for sure...the front end gets squirrely in second gear now :p I'm going to hit the, umm, private tuning course later today and try to get everything dialed in a little tighter before the dyno pulls tomorrow morning (thanks to these great guys -> Jacks Transmissions Forums • View topic - Free Dyno Runs For Our Members!! ) No dyno tuning tomorrow, but free baselines...oh yeah!

I'll post up the results sometime this weekend.
 
Good for you. Did you port the intake manifold at all? I took advantage and ported the runners while I was in there.

What I love about this manifold is the topend, especially with the 264 cams. I go up to 8000 rpms, even in 4th gear, that is how much topend pull this combo makes. High rpm pulls are what this manifold is about. I think the HKS 264 cams, EVOIII 16g, EVOIII intake manifold, and FP exhaust manifold are an ideal combo. For the guys that like a high rpm screamer and big huge midrange torque, this combo is hard to beat.

I'm sure you could crack 400 w.h.p. on race gas (forgot, your already on E85).
 
I did not port it, just left it as-cast. And thankfully it's an Evo3 mani as opposed to the RVR, so I didn't have to do any porting to the TB flange to get the 1g TB to mate up nicely which was a bonus. My intake piping is matched to the old 2g TB though, so I did my best to at least break that sharp corner where the elbow meets the TB.

I didn't install any heavier springs/retainers, so I'm going to stick with the stock rev limit at this point. It does feel better from about 4K up, almost like it's torquier without the real peaky feel that the Evo3 16g turbo has always had. It feels pretty smooth now by comparison all the way to 7K.

I think 400whp is going to be a stretch at my altitude (6000'), but I'll be happy with anything north of 350 :thumb: My logger was kaput last night, but I'm about to head out and make a couple of pulls now that it's revived and see what the airflow numbers tell me. Funny thing is that with no fuel adjustment, my afr's didn't change above 7K vs the stock cams...that may be the altitude talking though.
 
Are you guys using intake manifold support brackets at all? I found that none of the ones I had would fit the evo3 intake I have... so now I'm stuck with either not running one or making one out of bar stock.
 
Soooooo, yeah. No increase. Well, +0.8HP and +0.3TQ...not sure what to say about that. Psi and afrs were in the same sweet spot as the last time I dynoed, so it's not like I was way off.

What did change for the better is the shape of the curves, and my butt dyno was correct about the car feeling torquier/less peaky. I am making +15ish HP and TQ across almost the entire rpm range, except for the peak numbers. The car also feels more eager to get into boost, and the cams further smoothed the airflow and extended it up top, so that's beneficial.

I'm just stumped as to why I can't make more power with it. The only thing left in the equation is the Dejon smic, but I still have not done a pressure drop test on it. I guess that's next, as I don't want to throw $300+ at a fmic setup and have it make little to no difference again. A local guy with a really nice setup only made 356whp with his Evo3 16g, and couldn't squeeze anything more out of it. And another member here, Jayrolla, made practically identical numbers on a very similar setup just a few minutes after me on the same dyno, so maybe it's maxed out on my car.

Meh, doesn't matter anyway, as the turbo is about done LOL. I knew it was smoking a little, but on the dyno it was downright fogging the place out. Time to go bigger!

Here's an overlay of this visit (dark gray) vs. the last (blue). Sorry for the quality, but the pulls were scaled differently and I had to correct it in Photoshop, so the graph lines are all screwy. The curves are at least oriented/scaled correctly now. It's easy to see that I'm making more power with the cams just about everywhere but at the top LOL.
 

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Looks good to me. As typical with a small turbo, your peak won't rise, it'll just hold longer. Either way, you have more area under the curve.

Exactly, peak numbers don't mean much unless your dyno drag racing ;)

Do you have any idea as to what kind of lb/min your currently seeing? I have no personal experience with the Dejon SMIC but I did run a HRC SMIC years ago & have to say was less then impressed. Well actually it worked not bad but when I swapped to a FMIC I easily found what I was missing with the SMIC.
 
Exactly, peak numbers don't mean much unless your dyno drag racing ;)

Do you have any idea as to what kind of lb/min your currently seeing? I have no personal experience with the Dejon SMIC but I did run a HRC SMIC years ago & have to say was less then impressed. Well actually it worked not bad but when I swapped to a FMIC I easily found what I was missing with the SMIC.

Daren, are you referring to the HRC's cooling capability (or relative lack thereof) or pressure drop?

+3 regarding area under the curve is more important than peak values.
 
Soooooo, yeah. No increase. Well, +0.8HP and +0.3TQ...not sure what to say about that. Psi and afrs were in the same sweet spot as the last time I dynoed, so it's not like I was way off.

What did change for the better is the shape of the curves, and my butt dyno was correct about the car feeling torquier/less peaky. I am making +15ish HP and TQ across almost the entire rpm range, except for the peak numbers. The car also feels more eager to get into boost, and the cams further smoothed the airflow and extended it up top, so that's beneficial.

I'm just stumped as to why I can't make more power with it. The only thing left in the equation is the Dejon smic, but I still have not done a pressure drop test on it. I guess that's next, as I don't want to throw $300+ at a fmic setup and have it make little to no difference again. A local guy with a really nice setup only made 356whp with his Evo3 16g, and couldn't squeeze anything more out of it. And another member here, Jayrolla, made practically identical numbers on a very similar setup just a few minutes after me on the same dyno, so maybe it's maxed out on my car.

Meh, doesn't matter anyway, as the turbo is about done LOL. I knew it was smoking a little, but on the dyno it was downright fogging the place out. Time to go bigger!

Here's an overlay of this visit (dark gray) vs. the last (blue). Sorry for the quality, but the pulls were scaled differently and I had to correct it in Photoshop, so the graph lines are all screwy. The curves are at least oriented/scaled correctly now. It's easy to see that I'm making more power with the cams just about everywhere but at the top LOL.

Those are excellent results. The horsepower and torque peak on these small turbos lasts about 1,000RPM. Right after that, they start running out of breath. You have managed to maintain more power after the initial power spike, this makes for a much faster car. The flatter the torque curve, the better. This is a perfect example were the peak numbers might not have changed in the search for more power, but if you were to go by the 1/4 mile time/speed preference, those are very very good results on a dyno. I do not even need to mention the added low end power, we all would not mind having a little extra.
 
Thanks for the words guys.

Exactly, peak numbers don't mean much unless your dyno drag racing ;)

Do you have any idea as to what kind of lb/min your currently seeing? I have no personal experience with the Dejon SMIC but I did run a HRC SMIC years ago & have to say was less then impressed. Well actually it worked not bad but when I swapped to a FMIC I easily found what I was missing with the SMIC.

Peak flow is still right around 34-34.5lb/min. I know that there has to be more from this turbo, even at this altitude, and the IC was my next guess. I'm pretty impressed with how well it cools, but I figure airflow is hurting. I threatened to pull a FMIC off the next 2g through the shop and run it for a day to see if it feels any different before buying one outright LOL.

I hit my favorite quick mountain run a couple days ago, and after being in boost for the better part of a minute in one section I pulled off to check the IC...really hot at the inlet and really cold at the outlet. But that says nothing about pressure drop. I am going to do a crude pressure drop test on it in the near future to see how bad it is (one boost gauge tapped before and one after the IC). I may even fab up a hotpipe and bypass the IC altogether for a pull or two (since I'm on e85) and see what kind of airflow I can get. It'll be really hot, but I'll fatten it up and hopefully the e85 will keep things in check.

Those are excellent results. The horsepower and torque peak on these small turbos lasts about 1,000RPM. Right after that, they start running out of breath. You have managed to maintain more power after the initial power spike, this makes for a much faster car. The flatter the torque curve, the better. This is a perfect example were the peak numbers might not have changed in the search for more power, but if you were to go by the 1/4 mile time/speed preference, those are very very good results on a dyno. I do not even need to mention the added low end power, we all would not mind having a little extra.

The car definitely feels quicker with the cams, and more powerful across the board. I'm just surprised the peak numbers didn't rise. We don't have a track open for another month around here, so that will have to wait a little longer, but I'm definitely interested to see where my trap is after the cams.
 
So is nobody going to answer about the intake manifold support bracket? I am, too, surprised that the peak numbers didn't go up, but I'd really not care that much given that you gained hp throughout the whole curve. That is more important to me than the peak power. Peak power will go up when you use a bigger turbo or colder air is getting into the motor (fmic). I'd be interested in seeing comparison results on a 2g intake manifold that is peaked out vs this manifold... and I'd actually have been a little surprised if this evo3 manifold added power on a setup that hadn't had it's intake maxed out to begin with.
 
Daren, are you referring to the HRC's cooling capability (or relative lack thereof) or pressure drop?


I never did any actual testing of those factors but I'm thinking both were probably an issue. With pump 94 I was limited to about 18psi with the HRC SMIC, to have a stockish timing curve. Once I went FMIC, I was running 22psi, same stockish timing curve & no knock (didn't try to run more at that time). Running the same boost, I also picked up a couple lb/min swapping to a FMIC.
 
Do you recall which FMIC you went with? If not, was it generic or a name-brand?
 
Well, I took a chance over the weekend and ran a hotpipe from the turbo to the TB to see how much more air, if any, I could flow by eliminating the SMIC. I didn't blow up but I didn't get any useful info, either, as the car REALLY didn't like that setup and I couldn't get to redline on either of the 2 pulls I made. First one I started knocking at 6500 and got out of it. I fattened it up 7% above 4K for the second pull and I didn't knock, but I swear I hit fuel cut at about 5K, but I've got no airflow cap with my Keydiver chip, so I don't know what to say about that. Runs fine though after I put the SMIC back on.

I went from a stock smic to a punishment 3.5" short route. My idc's with a constant afr were higher at 23 psi with the fmic than at 28 psi with the side mount.

Well I guess that does point to more air getting through, and at a lower psi too. Thanks for the input.

Just to let everyone know, pneumo is currently using one of these with a 2G head on his 1G. Car is making nearly 600whp! Told him to come and share info when he gets a chance. :)


http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/364078-new-dyno-results.html

That's good to see, and an incredible improvement over the previous head setup even at similar boost levels. I somehow missed the part about him running one of these manifolds the first time I read the post.

I picked up a bolt-on TO4e 50trim on Saturday (SCM50), so the E316g is going into retirement soon. I'm going to hit the track (once they open) with the 16g one more time while I'm getting the 50trim sorted out, so I can see if the cams add anything to the trap speed. And I know that SCM50 is dated, but I got it for a song so I'm going to run it :thumb:
 
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