twdorris said:

The page I linked to above has all the answers you're looking for, including a complete explanation on how the 50% number is derived and how to calculate the gasoline equivalent flow rate of injectors on E85.

For 1050cc injectors, you can expect the gasoline equivalent of about 700cc:

1050 * 0.67 = 704

But....people generally find that they can run leaner on E85 than they could on gasoline. So that sorta kinda raises that flow rate calculation. Sorta.

For example, if you find that you can run 11.5:1 on E85 where you could only run 10.5:1 on gasoline (I'm normalizing lambda here to be gasoline-based just for simplicity), then that 704 is sorta like 770:

703 * 11.5 / 10.5 = 770

But that's really a goofy way of looking at it, IMO. It's valid, just a little strange and imprecise. It's better to just multiply by 0.67 and then if you find you can lean the mixture out more on E85, great...that's even more head room to play with at WOT. But the normal stoichiometric closed loop operation is still going to be based on that 0.67 factor.

Thomas Dorris

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I dont think its a goofy way of looking at it. When people explain it as "you need 30% more to run e85" they take the ability to run leaner into the mix as well. Using your numbers and 12:1(gas scalle) vs 10.5:1 gives you that 30% number. 803 gas = 1050 e85 at WOT.

I also dont really look at it as being able to run leaner with e85, but more that you dont have to run so rich with e85 like you do with gas to keep gas from knocking. 10.5:1 is outside of the rich-lean power window of gas, but 12:1(gas scale) for e85 is.

GST95 said:

I dont think its a goofy way of looking at it.

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I guess it just needs to be better qualified. How's this? You need 50% more fuel to maintain proper closed loop, stoichiometric operation but you may only need about 30% more at WOT, depending on which fuel you're switching from. You can probably run 12:1 on C16 gasoline, for example. Which means you'll still need 50% more fuel on E85 than you did on C16 at WOT.

Personally, I think it's better to just say you need 50% more fuel across the board and then let the tuning take care of leaning out more at WOT.

GST95 said:

I also dont really look at it as being able to run leaner with e85, but more that you dont have to run so rich with e85 like you do with gas to keep gas from knocking.

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I like it.

Thomas Dorris

camfast said:

..i know math i was just not thinking when i posted at 2am...but thanks for the example.



Thanks for the explanation Thomas, i was going off by the 0.67 factor as well. Im trying to learn as much as i can to run e85.

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E-85 is one of the most forgiving fuels to learn to tune. I was running 30 psi, and 20* of timing on a stock smic. I had the head off last week and the pistons showed 0 signs of detonation. I had the knock retard disabled also in the ecu. I tune by upping timing and boost until gains become minimal, and then backing off slightly, instead of trusting a poorly designed 20 year old knock sensor. Now pump gas tuning is a different story.

Mr. Peepers is on a 16g, (was on a sidemount) and a safc with a 2g mas with 1000cc injectors on e85. Everything matched up pretty well and performs amazing. The car saw 11's and traps near 120mph

donniekak said:

E-85 is one of the most forgiving fuels to learn to tune. I was running 30 psi, and 20* of timing on a stock smic. I had the head off last week and the pistons showed 0 signs of detonation. I had the knock retard disabled also in the ecu. I tune by upping timing and boost until gains become minimal, and then backing off slightly, instead of trusting a poorly designed 20 year old knock sensor. Now pump gas tuning is a different story.

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Interesting, so you played with timing and boost until the car knocked? I have a datalogger so hopefully that will help but at the same time i dont want to run aggressive timing even though e85 loves it. I may have to play with the CAS to set base timing if that would help any. Thanks for the tip

kp116 said:

Mr. Peepers is on a 16g, (was on a sidemount) and a safc with a 2g mas with 1000cc injectors on e85. Everything matched up pretty well and performs amazing. The car saw 11's and traps near 120mph

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Yeah! i was checking out his combo and thats exactly how i want to run mine. Except i have Maf-t so that will help me compensate and fine tune a little better with the afc. Hopefully ill get similar results if not better (18g).

camfast said:

Interesting, so you played with timing and boost until the car knocked? I have a datalogger so hopefully that will help but at the same time i dont want to run aggressive timing even though e85 loves it. I may have to play with the CAS to set base timing if that would help any. Thanks for the tip



Yeah! i was checking out his combo and thats exactly how i want to run mine. Except i have Maf-t so that will help me compensate and fine tune a little better with the afc. Hopefully ill get similar results if not better (18g).

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I've never got knock on e-85. I just up my timing and boost until it stops gaining power, then drop a couple *'s and psi. I use tunerpro so i write full timing and fuel maps.

donniekak said:

I've never got knock on e-85. I just up my timing and boost until it stops gaining power, then drop a couple *'s and psi. I use tunerpro so i write full timing and fuel maps.

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Soon enough i will get V3 lite so i can have full control of timing as well. Im expecting some very good results from maft and afc combo and e85 once the 1050cc injectors are installed. I may have to play with base timing to get the best tune.

What do you think base timing should be set on? and Will it make a difference?

Well, i ordered the FIC 1050's so i should have some results coming soon.

1050's are in and so far my idle is very good. I adjusted the maft by putting 0 on AUX and WOT i adjusted to 1. Tomorrow i will plug in the datalogger and replace the 02 sensor for my wideband. I will post a log for my setup as well.

sweet, I have seen 8+* over pump. You should be able to crank the base up to 12-13* so the car will be sooo much more fun to drive off boost. You will notice much more power while just putting light to light at low throttle.

Wow, the car is a BEAST!

Im very impressed for what this setup has done for me. The maft was set appropriately to the injectors and the rest was taken care from the AFC. Base timing is set at 5* and im running 20psi (25-26 spike) with ZERO knock. My A/F is around 10.7-11.0 at redline so there is plenty left in the combo and there is still about 1/4 of a tank of 93 octane in there... Definately night and day difference over pump gas, more tuning will be on the way!

camfast said:

Wow, the car is a BEAST!

Im very impressed for what this setup has done for me. The maft was set appropriately to the injectors and the rest was taken care from the AFC. Base timing is set at 5* and im running 20psi (25-26 spike) with ZERO knock. My A/F is around 10.7-11.0 at redline so there is plenty left in the combo and there is still about 1/4 of a tank of 93 octane in there... Definately night and day difference over pump gas, more tuning will be on the way!

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I'm suprised your fuel pump can keep up at those AFR's. Gotta watch that with e85!

Your babying that tune for sure! Get the AFR's in the low to mid 12's. If your on the OEM factory ECU timing maps U may be good there. . Best way to set timing (IMO) is to go to the track and just keep bumping it up 1* or so until your MPH peaks, then lock it down.

Then on race day, turn that MBC Down as far as it will go! I run e30 and meth injection. 10* base (I have a chip though with altered timing) on a e316g. I bury the 30lb gauge, then settle around 25psi. Usually run 20 for daily driving.

Good luck! Sounds fun...

1993 Talon TSI :: holding25psi6krpm.flv video by Hybridgnx - Photobucket

forcefed86 said:

I'm suprised your fuel pump can keep up at those AFR's. Gotta watch that with e85!

Your babying that tune for sure! Get the AFR's in the low to mid 12's. If your on the OEM factory ECU timing maps U may be good there. . Best way to set timing (IMO) is to go to the track and just keep bumping it up 1* or so until your MPH peaks, then lock it down.

Then on race day, turn that MBC Down as far as it will go! I run e30 and meth injection. 10* base (I have a chip though with altered timing) on a e316g. I bury the 30lb gauge, then settle around 25psi. Usually run 20 for daily driving.

Good luck! Sounds fun...

1993 Talon TSI :: holding25psi6krpm.flv video by Hybridgnx - Photobucket

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I have a walbro pump and my fuel pressure is 45 psi. Is that too rich for e-85? Its going to be leaned out a lot more so eventually the target will be 11.8-12.0's with IDC at 70-80%. I would think thats respectable and im taking one step at a time to ensure that i keep knock, timing and AFR's in check. I will adjust accordingly and finally get to 12.5 AFR's.

Also, im trying to peak boost at 28psi or so and drop to 25 and leave it alone. Its not my daily so that would be fun when i do take it out. That boost feels real good, .

Right now its peaking at 24* which i think its repectable considering the ECU has an aggressive timing curve. E-85 seem to love it so i may get away with a few degrees more. Whats your peak timing set at? 10* is a lot but i guess having a chip with altered timing is working out for you. My buddy and i are going to the track in a couple of weeks so further test will be done and see how the car responds.

camfast said:

I have a walbro pump and my fuel pressure is 45 psi. Is that too rich for e-85? Its going to be leaned out a lot more so eventually the target will be 11.8-12.0's with IDC at 70-80%. I would think that's respectable and im taking one step at a time to ensure that i keep knock, timing and AFR's in check. I will adjust accordingly and finally get to 12.5 AFR's.

Also, im trying to peak boost at 28psi or so and drop to 25 and leave it alone. Its not my daily so that would be fun when i do take it out. That boost feels real good, .

Right now its peaking at 24* which i think its repectable considering the ECU has an aggressive timing curve. E-85 seem to love it so i may get away with a few degrees more. Whats your peak timing set at? 10* is a lot but i guess having a chip with altered timing is working out for you. My buddy and i are going to the track in a couple of weeks so further test will be done and see how the car responds.

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Only way to tell if it's to rich or not is to watch the WB02. IMO 45 is to high. Esp. since you have the ability to adjust injector pulse at idle with the SAFC. Figure if you have a 255HP pump they don't suggest going over 75psi with this pump. So taking your base of 45psi and add your max boost pressure to it. I spike to over 30psi so I'd be stressing the pump. Not to mention the pump flows less at higher pressures. Flow levels go down as pressure goes up. (that's why name brand pumps usually post flow rated at 45psi)



IMO set it around 30-35 and tune accordingly with the WB02/SAFC. You should have plenty of injector.



Slowly leaning out the mix and watching knock is a good idea. Most find around 12-12.5 makes the best power on e85. Typically an E85 stockish 16g DSM will see a 5whp increase going from 11.5 to 12.5. (again each car is different)



I doubt you'll get the boost to hold at 28 without spiking it well past 30 first. Just depends how much air your motor is flowing. As you can see I have to spike it to 35 or so just to hold 25psi to 6k. My 16g is ported and I run BC272 cams. You may get closer with the stock grind cams but 28lbs is pushing it.



IMO your pretty safe with factory timing and E85.(should be 22* at WOT with 5* base) Like I said, doesn't really matter so much what it's set at. There are no magic numbers. Start at 2-3* base and bump is a degree or 2 until the MPH(at track) or HP (on dyno peaks.)

forcefed86 said:

Only way to tell if it's to rich or not is to watch the WB02. IMO 45 is to high. Esp. since you have the ability to adjust injector pulse at idle with the SAFC. Figure if you have a 255HP pump they don't suggest going over 75psi with this pump. So taking your base of 45psi and add your max boost pressure to it. I spike to over 30psi so I'd be stressing the pump. Not to mention the pump flows less at higher pressures. Flow levels go down as pressure goes up. (that's why name brand pumps usually post flow rated at 45psi)



IMO set it around 30-35 and tune accordingly with the WB02/SAFC. You should have plenty of injector.



Slowly leaning out the mix and watching knock is a good idea. Most find around 12-12.5 makes the best power on e85. Typically an E85 stockish 16g DSM will see a 5whp increase going from 11.5 to 12.5. (again each car is different)



I doubt you'll get the boost to hold at 28 without spiking it well past 30 first. Just depends how much air your motor is flowing. As you can see I have to spike it to 35 or so just to hold 25psi to 6k. My 16g is ported and I run BC272 cams. You may get closer with the stock grind cams but 28lbs is pushing it.



IMO your pretty safe with factory timing and E85.(should be 22* at WOT with 5* base) Like I said, doesn't really matter so much what it's set at. There are no magic numbers. Start at 2-3* base and bump is a degree or 2 until the MPH(at track) or HP (on dyno peaks.)

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You make a good point! Actually when my buddy and i took the car for a spin for the first time on e85, we tuned in 30 minutes. Now the fuel pressure setting was set for pump gas so yes, it does need to be turned down to 30-35 psi. Thats exactly the fuel pressure my buddy is running on his gsx (34psi). I also have the FP 18g so on a stock rebuild 6 bolt im sure that it can flow significant air. So far its been spking to 24psi and drops to 18 on a home made boost controller.

I just barely started tuning this setup and i love already. Will make some adjustments with timing and fuel pressure and i let you know how the car reacts. So far it looks very promising and cant wait till further test this weekend! I apprecite all the tips .

Be careful on the timing. Anything over 21* doesnt make much more power on e85 and can get dangerous. People actually have started melting some parts like valves and pistons running lots of timing on e85 thinking they can handle it since they dont get knock. Just be careful on the timing.

JayRolla said:

Be careful on the timing. Anything over 21* doesnt make much more power on e85 and can get dangerous. People actually have started melting some parts like valves and pistons running lots of timing on e85 thinking they can handle it since they dont get knock. Just be careful on the timing.

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I've got my e-85 map peaking at 20* and an 11.7:1 afr. Anything more on timing, or leaner afr doesn't merrit the danger. I've had my engine apart with this timing map, and there were no signs of detonation damage, or excessive heat to the exhaust valves.

JayRolla said:

Be careful on the timing. Anything over 21* doesnt make much more power on e85 and can get dangerous. People actually have started melting some parts like valves and pistons running lots of timing on e85 thinking they can handle it since they dont get knock. Just be careful on the timing.

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That seems crazy to me. I gained almost 3mph going from 18* to 25* in my 3.8 v6. This was with meth injection and 91 pump gas.

Maybe it has to do with the cam profiles or the general dynamics of the 4g63. I'm not arguing with you, I'm sure your correct. I've heard many "big name" folks say the same. I'd just like to know why?

We've run up to 28* total (116 octane) timing in turbo SBC's. All instances were tuned at the track watching MPH. Soon as it peaked we backed it off a degree and called it good.

My 1g is set at 21-22* currently. I think I'll back mine down until I get the the track this year. No signs of knock, but your right... there is no sense in risking it.

How much boost were you running? I find it crazy that i ran 20* at 30 psi. It's not even the peak timing that is key, it's the timing at peak torque. I'm around 12* at peak torque.

donniekak said:

How much boost were you running? I find it crazy that i ran 20* at 30 psi. It's not even the peak timing that is key, it's the timing at peak torque. I'm around 12* at peak torque.

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I think it's comparing "apples to oranges" here.... But I was running a 70mm turbo with a T-brake boosting around 15psi on the launch. And 27-28 lbs peak boost. I went from around 100 mph to around 103 mph in the 1/8th. I never had the car on a dyno. But I did ramp timing pretty aggressively. Around 21* by 3500.

(sorry for crapping up the thread man, I'll stop now!)

JayRolla said:

Be careful on the timing. Anything over 21* doesnt make much more power on e85 and can get dangerous. People actually have started melting some parts like valves and pistons running lots of timing on e85 thinking they can handle it since they dont get knock. Just be careful on the timing.

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Interesting, im going to adjust my base to lower my peak timing. I have the base at 5* so ill back it up a few degrees and go from there.