Ive been wanting to change to E85 fuel but i have a few questions first.

Currently i have maf-t, afc and innovate wideband for tuning. My 550's would have to be upgraded for sure but can i run 1000cc injectors and be able to get a good tune?

Ive heard that afc and 1000cc injectors work well with E85 due to more fuel requirement, is this true?

Later on this year im planning to get dsm link "lite" but for now afc and maft are the current tunning tools i have.

You'll be fine, especially since you have a wideband.

from what ive heard, you can only go up too 650cc injectors with a safc2 and that's pushing it.

bluegs03 said:

from what ive heard, you can only go up too 650cc injectors with a safc2 and that's pushing it.

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Well you need to reread and not post info that may change someones mind when you dont have the facts.

The safc will run anysize injector that it can adjust for. The safc has -50/+50% adjustability so it can run 1000+cc injectors. The problem is when you adjust for large injectors the ecu gets tricked and thinks its getting less airflow than it is so it will put you in a higher timing map which can cause detonation on pump gas.

Now e85 roughly needs 30% more fuel so you wont have to adjust so much on the safc. Also if timing does go up a little you should be fine since e85 loves timing.

I ran e85, safc, maf-t, 1200cc injectors for over a year with no issues. Its not the best tune but way better than running low boost on pump gas. I say go for it, you will be fine.

JayRolla said:

Well you need to reread and not post info that may change someones mind when you dont have the facts.

The safc will run anysize injector that it can adjust for. The safc has -50/+50% adjustability so it can run 1000+cc injectors. The problem is when you adjust for large injectors the ecu gets tricked and thinks its getting less airflow than it is so it will put you in a higher timing map which can cause detonation on pump gas.

Now e85 roughly needs 30% more fuel so you wont have to adjust so much on the safc. Also if timing does go up a little you should be fine since e85 loves timing.

I ran e85, safc, maf-t, 1200cc injectors for over a year with no issues. Its not the best tune but way better than running low boost on pump gas. I say go for it, you will be fine.

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+1

JayRolla said:

Well you need to reread and not post info that may change someones mind when you dont have the facts.

The safc will run anysize injector that it can adjust for. The safc has -50/+50% adjustability so it can run 1000+cc injectors. The problem is when you adjust for large injectors the ecu gets tricked and thinks its getting less airflow than it is so it will put you in a higher timing map which can cause detonation on pump gas.

Now e85 roughly needs 30% more fuel so you wont have to adjust so much on the safc. Also if timing does go up a little you should be fine since e85 loves timing.

I ran e85, safc, maf-t, 1200cc injectors for over a year with no issues. Its not the best tune but way better than running low boost on pump gas. I say go for it, you will be fine.

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Thanks for posting, have you had any issues getting the car to idle with that setup?

Does running E85 for a long time have any negative effect on the motor?
Also what A/F ratio should i keep it at?

It has a good effect on the engine. You won't end up with nasty carbon buildup on exhaust valves and inside the exhaust as much as petrol. It is a good idea to change the fuel filter a few hundred miles after the change to e85 cause the alcohol will break rust loose from any steel and will fill up the filter.

I ran that combo on my car for over 2 years. Idle was alright for me. Its obviously not the best setup, but it works.

Be certain to watch your oil!

E85 will break down conventional oil rather quickly. Have had 2 local supras spin bearings. We currently have our "street" turbo hatchback on e85/100 making a little over 600@25psi of boost. We did 3 oil tests on it. Mobil1, Rotella T, Castrol Syntec. The analyzed samples of the rotella had the lweast contamination and best oil properties left over.

We also dont go anymore than 1200 miles on the oil.

IMO i dont think thereis enough timing to take advantage on a stock DSM ecu for e85, i would say get a dsmnchip or something with some timing advance setup for some higher octane and it would be a tad better.

also target AFR numbers will be much richer than stadard 93 octane as well so dont be alarmed. you will need to see if your wideband has an alcohol chart with it or on the net.

I use a PLY tuner series wideband and all youhave to do is toggle the switch to "ethanol" and shes all taken care of, very nice

98turbo said:

Be certain to watch your oil!

E85 will break down conventional oil rather quickly. Have had 2 local supras spin bearings. We currently have our "street" turbo hatchback on e85/100 making a little over 600@25psi of boost. We did 3 oil tests on it. Mobil1, Rotella T, Castrol Syntec. The analyzed samples of the rotella had the lweast contamination and best oil properties left over.

We also dont go anymore than 1200 miles on the oil.

IMO i dont think thereis enough timing to take advantage on a stock DSM ecu for e85, i would say get a dsmnchip or something with some timing advance setup for some higher octane and it would be a tad better.

also target AFR numbers will be much richer than stadard 93 octane as well so dont be alarmed. you will need to see if your wideband has an alcohol chart with it or on the net.

I use a PLY tuner series wideband and all youhave to do is toggle the switch to "ethanol" and shes all taken care of, very nice

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Very good info! I actually change my oil at about 1000 miles. Again this car is not my daily driver but a weekend fun car. So do you think regular oil at every 1000 mile change is good? Or do i need to upgrade to better oil? I definately do NOT want to spin bearings on a good a motor!

Also what is the "target" A/F numbers for E-85?

thanks

Ive heard a lot of guys say that you have to have a wideband that displays the correct AFR for e85 to run it. In reality, unless you know the exact mixture of ethanol and the AFR calculation is adjustable, its not going to be 100% accurate anyways. Pump e85 can range anywhere from 70-85% depending on time of year, location, and the station. IMHO, using a gas scale is just fine as long as you know its not the actual AFR, but instead just an arbitrary number to aim for. The same goes for using lambda, which is basically in a round about way what you would be doing by using a gas scale anyways.

As for the target AFR, e85 has a much wider power range than gas does and you can actually be in this range unlike gas for a few reasons i wont go into.

e85 max power rich is λ0.7143 or 7:1 AFR or 10.5:1 AFR on a gas scale.
e85 max power lean is λ0.8673 or 8.5:1 AFR or 12.75:1 AFR on a gas scale.

I usually tune to about 12:1 on a gas scale. Ive tried richer, but it didnt help my mph (ive never dynoed my car) and was just using more fuel and giving me less headroom on my injectors so ive settled on 12:1. Others have gone leaner with good results, but generally you will cause damage to your engine before you see any knock from going lean so i dont try to push my luck too much. This is also why you cant tune by knock on e85 like you can with gas.

If your wbo2 is setup for gasoline and it reads 14.7, the actual AFR is around 9.7 which is stoich for e85. So as long as you tune to regular gasoline afr's you will be good. I like to run 11.5-12.0 gas equivalent AFR's on e85.

98turbo said:

Be certain to watch your oil!

E85 will break down conventional oil rather quickly. Have had 2 local supras spin bearings. We currently have our "street" turbo hatchback on e85/100 making a little over 600@25psi of boost. We did 3 oil tests on it. Mobil1, Rotella T, Castrol Syntec. The analyzed samples of the rotella had the lweast contamination and best oil properties left over.

We also dont go anymore than 1200 miles on the oil.

IMO i dont think thereis enough timing to take advantage on a stock DSM ecu for e85, i would say get a dsmnchip or something with some timing advance setup for some higher octane and it would be a tad better.

also target AFR numbers will be much richer than stadard 93 octane as well so dont be alarmed. you will need to see if your wideband has an alcohol chart with it or on the net.

I use a PLY tuner series wideband and all youhave to do is toggle the switch to "ethanol" and shes all taken care of, very nice

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The stock 1g timing map peaks at 24* in the high load row. Not really any reason to need more.

I thought it peaked at 22*? Been awhile since I've read the timing tables. Also e85 needs more timing to burn correctly so going over 24* can happen when finding MBT. But a dyno is needed for that.

i'd have to agree i run mine at like 11.7 - 12.0 af's on a gasoline wideband and run around 18 - 21 degrees of timing at 38 psi of boost and it seemed to not pick up any more power nor mph with timing after 21 degrees

The stock 1g timing map peaks at 24* in the high load row. Not really any reason to need more.

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Yes, but the problem is that is at 6000 rpm, and then the stock timing takes a downturn and ends up at only 18* at 7000+ rpm. Stupid stock maps.

jeffo said:

Yes, but the problem is that is at 6000 rpm, and then the stock timing takes a downturn and ends up at only 18* at 7000+ rpm. Stupid stock maps.

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Should i have to worry about stock timing at 7000 rpms with E-85? I just want to be able to run 22-25psi on my 18g without knocking.

jeffo said:

Yes, but the problem is that is at 6000 rpm, and then the stock timing takes a downturn and ends up at only 18* at 7000+ rpm. Stupid stock maps.

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Correct and if you have the ability to take advantage of timing and ethanol you will be able to see the dramatic decrease in spool times, as compared to pump gas and racegas also its a different monster, I have done probably 20 different e85/e100 setups and they have all been a blast. We even have an all motor honda on e85 here at the shop, high compression big cam motor runs great and makes awesome power on our dyno.

camfast said:

Very good info! I actually change my oil at about 1000 miles. Again this car is not my daily driver but a weekend fun car. So do you think regular oil at every 1000 mile change is good? Or do i need to upgrade to better oil? I definately do NOT want to spin bearings on a good a motor!

Also what is the "target" A/F numbers for E-85?

thanks

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I would not use conventional oil, i think i have some oil sample analysis results on my shop computer i can post up. but i recommend some 15w50 or some rotella T

The 30% more requirement has nothing to do with how fast it burns. E85 roughly requires 40-50 larger injectors(not double as most think) due to its stoichometric difference from gasoline(9.76:1 VS 14.7:1) the difference in the 2 is 66% but the necessary flow needed is typically only 40% due to its higher density in volume. Your standard blended E85 is also in the 105 octane area

It has a much higher knock threshold temp than gasoline as well I think its like 680 degrees vice 475 degrees for gasoline

I like E85-98-100 as it initiates a much cooler intake charge thus allowing higher boost pressures and some more timing and we can call it "pumpgas"

It also seems that the high volune has been very apparent at idle which makes the "old" PTE 1600s work great as you have to feed it more fuel to idle good, thus not having to damn near studder the injector the slow them down as with other fuels.

JayRolla said:

Now e85 roughly needs 30% more fuel so you wont have to adjust so much on the safc. Also if timing does go up a little you should be fine since e85 loves timing.

I ran e85, safc, maf-t, 1200cc injectors for over a year with no issues. Its not the best tune but way better than running low boost on pump gas. I say go for it, you will be fine.

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Seems strange your only pushing "roughly" 30% more fuel with e-85??

I run e30 with 750cc injectors (dsmchips 750cc eprom). I had to richen up the idle 25% on my SAFC and the WOT tables 23% To keep the fuel trims around 100. This is also after I have bumped base FP to 42 and added roughly 10gph of 100% methanol. My DC is around 86%! With the added FP and meth thats easily 30% more fuel just for e30?

I also have the 2nd map on the safcII setup so I can run standard 91 if no e85 stations are around.

I'd reccommend e30 to anyone with a 16-20g turbo. It provides pleanty of octane to max out the small frame turbo's. Doubt I could go much faster switching over to e-85. Plus my MPG hasen't suffered as much. My little 16g really hums though! Peaking out around 35psi and dropping to around 25 by 6100rpm. I haven't tried removing the methanol, but I doubt I could run as much timing without it. It's my security blanket.

forcefed86 said:

Seems strange your only pushing "roughly" 30% more fuel with e-85??

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Needing only 30% more fuel with E85 than was needed on gasoline seems strange. But needing 25% more for E30 is also strange.

E85 should require (and always has in my own testing) almost exactly 50% more fuel than gasoline. E30 should require 13% more fuel than gasoline. The formulas and such are listed here:

e85fuel [ECMTuning - wiki]

Thomas Dorris

twdorris said:

Needing only 30% more fuel with E85 than was needed on gasoline seems strange. But needing 25% more for E30 is also strange.

E85 should require (and always has in my own testing) almost exactly 50% more fuel than gasoline. E30 should require 13% more fuel than gasoline. The formulas and such are listed here:

e85fuel [ECMTuning - wiki]

Thomas Dorris

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The 25% increase at idle is largely due to the injector deadtime on the chip. It was burnt for different brand injectors (same size slightly different dead time) . Also the chip was burnt for stock fuel pressure. These two things on top of the e30 are the reason my specific setup requires so much fuel at idle. Pre e30 I needed around 10% more fuel at idle.

Suppose I could have left that part out. Mainly curious about WOT fueling.

Hmmmm...50% more fuel than gasoline? Never heard of that. So it means that if i run 1050cc injectors then they most likely be like 450cc with e85?

camfast said:

Hmmmm...50% more fuel than gasoline? Never heard of that. So it means that if i run 1050cc injectors then they most likely be like 450cc with e85?

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The page I linked to above has all the answers you're looking for, including a complete explanation on how the 50% number is derived and how to calculate the gasoline equivalent flow rate of injectors on E85.

For 1050cc injectors, you can expect the gasoline equivalent of about 700cc:

1050 * 0.67 = 704

But....people generally find that they can run leaner on E85 than they could on gasoline. So that sorta kinda raises that flow rate calculation. Sorta.

For example, if you find that you can run 11.5:1 on E85 where you could only run 10.5:1 on gasoline (I'm normalizing lambda here to be gasoline-based just for simplicity), then that 704 is sorta like 770:

703 * 11.5 / 10.5 = 770

But that's really a goofy way of looking at it, IMO. It's valid, just a little strange and imprecise. It's better to just multiply by 0.67 and then if you find you can lean the mixture out more on E85, great...that's even more head room to play with at WOT. But the normal stoichiometric closed loop operation is still going to be based on that 0.67 factor.

Thomas Dorris

camfast said:

Hmmmm...50% more fuel than gasoline? Never heard of that. So it means that if i run 1050cc injectors then they most likely be like 450cc with e85?

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Where did you learn math? A 900cc injector is 50% larger than a 600cc injector, and 100% larger than a 450cc injector.

donniekak said:

Where did you learn math? A 900cc injector is 50% larger than a 600cc injector, and 100% larger than a 450cc injector.

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..i know math i was just not thinking when i posted at 2am...but thanks for the example.

twdorris said:

The page I linked to above has all the answers you're looking for, including a complete explanation on how the 50% number is derived and how to calculate the gasoline equivalent flow rate of injectors on E85.

For 1050cc injectors, you can expect the gasoline equivalent of about 700cc:

1050 * 0.67 = 704

But....people generally find that they can run leaner on E85 than they could on gasoline. So that sorta kinda raises that flow rate calculation. Sorta.

For example, if you find that you can run 11.5:1 on E85 where you could only run 10.5:1 on gasoline (I'm normalizing lambda here to be gasoline-based just for simplicity), then that 704 is sorta like 770:

703 * 11.5 / 10.5 = 770

But that's really a goofy way of looking at it, IMO. It's valid, just a little strange and imprecise. It's better to just multiply by 0.67 and then if you find you can lean the mixture out more on E85, great...that's even more head room to play with at WOT. But the normal stoichiometric closed loop operation is still going to be based on that 0.67 factor.

Thomas Dorris

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Thanks for the explanation Thomas, i was going off by the 0.67 factor as well. Im trying to learn as much as i can to run e85.