Grounded Battery on strut bar

Atuca · Aug 5, 2009

Alright, well It happened to me, the battery grounded out on the strut bar.

I had wraped it with electrical tape, but that didn't stop it from months of rubbing eventually getting the better of it. What actually caused it in the end was parking up a steep hill at a friends house, probably a 45% angle or more, soon as I got to the top, I heard a slight pop and all power gone.

I was able to find the problem pretty quick, I wrapped up the cables again, put more new tape on the strut bar, and after conneting my battery to my friends car and having him help me jump it, it started up and I drove on my way.

Well soon as I turned the car off, all power was gone, not even the ajar door or lights, nothing, no power at all. I had to pull the power off the battery, hook it up again, and connect some jumper cables and while connected, reset my ecu for dsmlink again (need to get v3) and tried to jump it, everything in the car had power, i put the key in the start position, everything looks good, the dash lights come on like they are told, engine fans, but the SECOND i try to turn it over, all power is gone. dash lights all out, everything. No power.

Well i attempt to keep trying to jump it, removing power wire, resetting dsmlink again once ecu gets power, and nothing. After 30 mins, I just leave the car connected to the battery of my friends via jumper cables and I notice that my car trys to turn over, and after 5 mins or so, perhaps 10 mins, the car turns over like it was just a completely dead battery.

Well when I finally got to my destination, I tried to do the basics, the battery is good, from the battery to the engine block, 12ish+ volts. That shocked me. I took everything off the positive post and tested each wire at a time:

to my amplifiers: draws 12v+
to the starter? (the wire gets wrapped with the negative batter as it goes behind the block): DRAWS NO POWER
to the fuel pump: DRAWS NO POWER
to the fuse box: draws 12v+

Now, after messing with that, I connected everything back to the positive post, and i look at fuses. I have a buudy with a DSM come over and we play fuse swap. Starting with ignition. We put in his, when I open my door, the car has power, door ajar light is on, I go to start it, BAM CAR STARTS!!

I thought I had found the problem, so just to double check, we put in the "bad" fuse into his car, and than his car starts just fine, over and over. So we put the bad one back into my car, and than power dead, nothing, just like it was doing before. So than we put back in his fuse, CAR STAYS DEAD.

I tried to be descriptive of the problem as I could, if we jump the car, it will eventually turn over, otherwise it loses all power when tried to turn over. and even than, only half the time when pulling the power off the positive post and reconnecting the ajar door lights comes on. So right now it is not a problem I can put my finger on, but I do know the cause at least. Most the other threads I read didn't have these symptoms, especially when jumping the car it runs just fine (as I was initiall stuck 100 miles from home and drove that far after my friend initially jumped the car)

So my dsm friends, what do I do?

bomper04 · Aug 6, 2009

no battery tie down? =/.
I'm curious to find out what people have to say about your symptoms, because i don't know where to start.

i was initially going to say to do some voltage drops if you own a dmm..

Atuca · Aug 6, 2009

battery is tied down and all, like i had said before, i know what caused the problem, it grounding out on the strut bar.

I do have a multimeter, and we started pulling fuses. I noticed what fixed alot of ppls problems was the alternator fuse. Mine looked to be ok, but I couldn't figure out how to pull it out when my friend was here to try and swap it.

Looking foward to help tho, I doubt it is ECU as it does run just fine once it gets power. That seemed to be a problem for some ppl, but for me, once the car is started, the car runs perfectly. lights all work, windows up down, radio ect. All good once it is started, just won't start

gofer · Aug 6, 2009

sorry to hear it but at least this didn't happen when it grounded... my christmas present from my DSM last year was an electrical fire. :barf:

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now fix that things before it happens again!

luv2rallye · Aug 6, 2009

Put a rubber insulator on that + post!!! Also move battery slightly in it's hold down bracket so it can't touch the strut.
Start with this: Disconnect both battery cables, both ends and clean them (wire brush and sandpaper) as well as battery posts. Securely tighten them back on. The battery negative that goes to the block should be under a starter mounting bolt. Negative also goes to body on firewall.

fedj18 · Aug 6, 2009

here is a good example why you should relocate your battery to the trunk when you start to do extensive mods on these cars. There just simply is not enough room under the hood for everything.

As for your problem, you may have internally "melted" or altered the quality of the power cable when it shorted because it drew such a high direct amperage very quickly. start taking voltage drop readings on the wiring system and verify there is no more than about .5 volts dropping from battery to sources. (.5 volts is normally high by most standards BTW, it would normally be .5 volt loss for both power and ground side connections combined)

Atuca · Aug 6, 2009

well it had rubbed through the stock rubber red cover, so i just added some more electrical tape.

Now what is ironic is I am planning on rewiring the car and moving the fuse box to the glovebox and the battery to the trunk so this isn't a problem, and than this problem happens to me, exactly the reason I was planning on preventing.

The terminals are not croded at all, but only sometime will disconecting and reconecting give me any power in the car at all, which made me think, "oh maybe i messed up and shorted a wire from the battery to the fuse box, but I couldn't see inside the fuse box to physicaly view the wires.

For someone who is anxious to do this rewire I sure am not liking trying to solve this issue. Usually its dealing with abosolutes and its easy to track down, but nothing of that sort has happened yet to make finding this problem.

any other ideas are welcome though.

fedj18 · Aug 6, 2009

well like I was saying the problem may be internal inthe wires so maybe while you are trying to start the car you can have a friend wiggle the harness around the battery and fuse box to see if there is excessive resistance in the wire.

Diplomat · Aug 6, 2009

Normally, I wouldn't bother suggesting this, because I personally think it's a waste of the precious DSM "performance mod budget". However, once you nail down the problem, it might be worth it for you to invest in a carbon fiber front strut tower brace. They are pricey for what little they do, but at least they're non-conductive.

Of course, the best solution to the problem would be to do whatever is necessary to solve your clearance issues. Whether it means going to a shorter battery, a different brace which has the appropriate bends (everyone and their brother makes strut tower braces), battery relocation, or even modifying the battery tray.

dave99gst · Aug 6, 2009

I put rubber around my bar then wrapped that in black tape. I eventually just never bothered to replace the bar because its a more of just a pita for what little it actually does. You basically turned your battery into a welder, I cant even begin to imagine what damage that potentially could cause.

luv2rallye · Aug 6, 2009

fedj18 said:
As for your problem, you may have internally "melted" or altered the quality of the power cable when it shorted because it drew such a high direct amperage very quickly. start taking voltage drop readings on the wiring system and verify there is no more than about .5 volts dropping from battery to sources. (.5 volts is normally high by most standards BTW, it would normally be .5 volt loss for both power and ground side connections combined)

^^^ +1, Yes on the reduced quality of the power cable after a massive short!!
And .5v drop should be maximum when you have extreme current flow, like when cranking. Also know that the "voltage drop across a cable under load" method is much more accurate than measuring resistance of the cable!

fedj18 said:
well like I was saying the problem may be internal inthe wires so maybe while you are trying to start the car you can have a friend wiggle the harness around the battery and fuse box to see if there is excessive resistance in the wire.

^^^ +1. Yes, do this to find an internal cable break or high resistance point in the cable.

fedj18 · Aug 6, 2009

I like the way you think rallye... :hellyeah:

If you couldn't tell, I work on cars for a profession so I'm used to tracing down the less than obvious problems, especially since I work at a dealership. We get all the problems that aftermarket shops either can't figure out or don't want to deal with so we tend to do a lot of thinking outside the box. Thanks for the backup.

Atuca · Aug 6, 2009

fedj18 said:
here is a good example why you should relocate your battery to the trunk when you start to do extensive mods on these cars. There just simply is not enough room under the hood for everything.

As for your problem, you may have internally "melted" or altered the quality of the power cable when it shorted because it drew such a high direct amperage very quickly. start taking voltage drop readings on the wiring system and verify there is no more than about .5 volts dropping from battery to sources. (.5 volts is normally high by most standards BTW, it would normally be .5 volt loss for both power and ground side connections combined)

Well i can't measure a drop because it goes from reading fine power, all is well when i put the key in, but when I try to turn it over, the second it go to start either A) it doesn't even try to start, and it just looses all power, or B) with the help of a jump it just acts like a dead battery reading alot lower.

What would cause my car to loose all power and need to be "reset" but unplugging the power and than putting it back on and having to try again. Is that resetting some capasitors, maybe a resister over loaded or something?

If I could solve that problem, or know how, I can find out maybe more how to solve the issue w/e it might be. at this point, I dont know how to trace 12v to 0 volts. My guess is ignition, but like I said, that is the only thing that I have been able to get to get any change in the outcome. I don't know if something else is actually causing it.

spooln4fun · Aug 6, 2009

You mentioned you tried to check the alternator fuse but could not get it out. It is actually bolted in. Its held in by a 10mm bolt on the side of the box

luv2rallye · Aug 6, 2009

Atuca said:
...when I try to turn it over, the second it go to start either A) it doesn't even try to start, and it just looses all power, or B) with the help of a jump it just acts like a dead battery reading alot lower.

By "it doesn't even try to start, and it just looses all power" do you mean it won't crank at all and no power to anything when you turn key to start? If so, sounds like you have a possible short in the starting circuit. Try disconnecting the one large positive battery cable that goes to the starter (don't touch any metal or better yet disconnect the battery negative while doing this) but leave the other positive cables on that go to the fusebox. The starter won't go but try starting to see if you still loose all power (like no dash lights). If power is now there then you have a problem with that cable or starter, probably a short (you can then measure resistance from that unattached cable to block/body to see). If power is still not there when key to start, check for shorts or opens in wiring. You can start out looking for shorts with the 12v bulb in series with battery described here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...-partial-short-battery-drain.html#post1496998. An open would be a broken/melted wire in the ignition circuitry or even a broken ignition switch.

When battery positive is shorted to ground a huge voltage spike is often generated. This can knock out sensitive electronic devices like the ECU, radio, amp, etc.

EclipticalGS · Aug 6, 2009

Well A. if you ahve an amp in the car, did you do the BIG 3 yet?? 0-1 gauge wire from battery to ground. 0-1 gauge wire from engine to chassis. 0-1 gauge wire from postive to alternator. Then what you do is turn the battery around! and then take the ground from the battery to the strut bar. Then the postive will be opposite (spin battery 180) of the strut bar. Then just put a rubber cover over it so no spark jump to firewall. Ive done this on car audio cars with strut bars. Then get another battery or relocate to the trunk which ever is easier. and run another 0-1 gauge from positive to positive next time. Check all your fuses. Your bettery could jsut be dead too. Like it could ahve burned up the battery. Try what i said, its the BIG 4 since i added the strut bar grounding! LOL

.

PS: you did not ground out on the strut bar, you Shorted out. just to not get you confused

toxicity883 · Aug 7, 2009

Diplomat said:
Normally, I wouldn't bother suggesting this, because I personally think it's a waste of the precious DSM "performance mod budget". However, once you nail down the problem, it might be worth it for you to invest in a carbon fiber front strut tower brace. They are pricey for what little they do, but at least they're non-conductive.

Of course, the best solution to the problem would be to do whatever is necessary to solve your clearance issues. Whether it means going to a shorter battery, a different brace which has the appropriate bends (everyone and their brother makes strut tower braces), battery relocation, or even modifying the battery tray.

Thats not always true well made carbon fiber is just as if not more conductive than aluminum, but battery relocation is definitely worth the trouble.

Dsmj89 · Aug 7, 2009

This may be a bit off topic but why don't you guys just take off your strut bars and save up for a real good suspension ?
The strut bars usually don't make a big difference, if any at all, in handling.

Atuca · Aug 7, 2009

it was free from a friend.

can't beat that, except it did this.

95 'clipse RS · Aug 7, 2009

just a thought, but my car did the whole no start and loss of power until to you disconnect and reconnect the battery when it was low, had bad connections, and a shorted cell in the battery. maybe your battery could actually have an open cell/cells now since it shorted to ground through the strut bar. when the battery has a shorted/open cell, it wont have the current to actually start the car. not to mention a shorted/open cell condition in the battery will ruin an alternator. i just figured i would put that out there just in case.

Rob10_99 · Aug 7, 2009

+1 do what Rallye said.
Disconnect your stereo first thing.
Test Ohm's in your ground as well as your +POS from battery to alternator and fuse box(even your key on at the steering column).
I would take out fuses you don't need to narrow this issue down. Like lights/washer motor/MPI relay even until you can get a stable cranking voltage.

I think you smoked your Pos cable to your starter (high Ohm and amp load on start?), and your killing your alternator when you DO get it started.

What's your running voltage and key on/off voltage?

fedj18 · Aug 8, 2009

Yes carbon fiber can conduct electricity very well in fact. If you were to take an older car with a distributor cap and take a piece of CARBON based vacuum hose, you could substitute your spark plug wires with the vacuum hose. Just be sure to fully insulate the outside of the vacuum hose with electrical tape to avoid any possibility of arcing or shorting. I've never actually tested using this method to drive a car down the road but I have tested it on a car idling in the shop and there is almost no difference in the quality of the spark.

Atuca · Aug 8, 2009

Well MAYBE I fixed it. I am trying to avoid telling the long personal story, but basicly I don't have anything more than basic tools with me atm, so trying to get to the starter to take the wires off was nearly impossible.

I could only remove the ground wire, which after some consideration, was all i needed to remove. I taped off the ground wire on both sides, the battery side, and the engine block side. Assuming there was a short in that wire, the power electricity now had no where to short/ground at. So than I ran a seperate wire from the battery negative to the engine block to replace the stock one that shoulda been there (now I remove it) and than I went inside the car.

Without being able to tune my 1050 injectors, I tried to see if I could crank it, or if it would repeat its problem. BAM IT CRANKED! I did that about 4 or 5 times, after moving the wire around and twisting it trying to make sure it was not just a fluke. I think now that the short was in the positive terminal to starter wire. Once I get it to a place I can properly service it, I will replace this wire and hopefully be all gravy.

I havn't jumped the car (now the battery is dead) to let it run, drive it, and retest, but for the purpose of today's help, Let hope that was all the damage I caused.

As far as testing the battery, am I limited to going to autozone/kragen and doing their test? Or if my car runs, I can turn it off, and start it up again normally, should I assume my battery is ok?

dsmfa9nutter · Aug 8, 2009

You either:

A: Killed your battery
B: Blew a few fuses out
C: Melted a wire
D: All of the above

Colt4G63 also · Aug 8, 2009

I'm really agreeing that the battery is probably fried internally, or the connections to the battery, or ground to the block are cooked and can not sustain sufficient current.

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Grounded Battery on strut bar

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