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Holset Turbos, PART 4

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I do truly understand. I've been there. I can almost can picture myself in your living room. I am not discouraging you. Yet, there is a difference between being the wakasachi of the dsm world and being as effective as a katana. Both are made with the same skill and detail and material. A ceremonial 600whp, however, is an end goal; not a stepping stone.


Even though you went like bruce lee on me with the katana stuff LOL I agree. Lets look at it like this he has a engine that can spool either and still be driveable. Which one is his decision based on if he can live with a little more lag for more power. Besides anyone that can actually reach 600whp and go threw with it won't need our help figuring out which turbo to buy anyway just facts
 
Ok looking to buy a holset. I was originally going to go with a bolt on PTE 60-1 or 57 trim. But after reading about the holset I may go with route.

I will be running the holset on the setup in my profile at the moment. I will be running e85 and running the turbo to max will not be an issue. Im making around 380-400whp on the 16g and I want 480-520whp. Will the hx-35 at high boost levels support enough airflow. Im leaning towards an hx40 because in the altitude Im at a turbo doesnt flow as well as it does at sealevel.
 
Well you'll be pushing an hx35 in that hp range. . . But not that bad since you'll be using e-85. Typically, most see up to 15% more power with e85 vs. race gas on the same setup at the same flow. I recommend the faster spooling hx35 for your goal. And we've proven the 7blade version has plenty of flow potential. Try it on the bolton housing, and if you can't reach your goal with that ou can swap to the original hx35 housing with a better exhaust manifold and o2 housing. In fact I would definately run a tubular o2 housing and o2-mounted external gate. I don't think you can even port the 1g or 2g o2 housing enough for the bep turbine housing outlet.

I know you can get away with and should be running higher timing with e85, but 1200cc injectors with a maft/safc ???
 
Im a proven member already! woohooo! thanks for telling me DSM-onster!

Anyways, ive been trying to read this holset thread but to tell you the truth, my brain got fried trying to read the 1,000,000,000+++ posts hahaha.

But i've read enough to seriously consider these holsets for my next turbo.

If anyone has an hx35 (with or without BEP housing) kindly let me know :) Pm me!

btw, are there any variants for the bolt-on dsm BEP housing?

chris b
 
If anyone has an hx35 (with or without BEP housing) kindly let me know :) Pm me!

btw, are there any variants for the bolt-on dsm BEP housing?

chris b

Internal or external wastegate. That is your choices for the Hx35 bolt on housing.
 
Internal or external wastegate. That is your choices for the Hx35 bolt on housing.

Thanks. Will there be any disadvantage if i use the OEM holset housing? assuming im willing to have a custom tubular manifold for it? or should i stick with the BEP mitsu housing?

chris b
 
Its huge and looks like it would be laggy but if you have the supporting mods I don't see where there would be a problem.

well planning to do a 6bolt swap, 272/272 cams, lightened flywheel, custom tubular mani, if i get the turbo cheap enough then i'd get a tial wastegate. dont know if i have would have the money for a SMIM though. So i think id stick with a mildly ported 1g intake mani (match ported to 1g ported head too).

As for the BOV, in the earlier threads i read that the 1g BOV cant handle these turbo's. Am i correct? would the dodgegarage mod do the trick?

thanks.

chris b
 
How much boost do you plan on running? I heard the crushed 1g bov is good until 25psi. I answered a couple of your other questions in your other thread in the newbie section.
 
Well you'll be pushing an hx35 in that hp range. . . But not that bad since you'll be using e-85. Typically, most see up to 15% more power with e85 vs. race gas on the same setup at the same flow. I recommend the faster spooling hx35 for your goal. And we've proven the 7blade version has plenty of flow potential. Try it on the bolton housing, and if you can't reach your goal with that ou can swap to the original hx35 housing with a better exhaust manifold and o2 housing. In fact I would definately run a tubular o2 housing and o2-mounted external gate. I don't think you can even port the 1g or 2g o2 housing enough for the bep turbine housing outlet.

I know you can get away with and should be running higher timing with e85, but 1200cc injectors with a maft/safc ???


The SAFC/Maf-t runs the injectors just fine. The maf-t is set at 800cc injectors and the safc is for fine tuning. It holds a solid 11.1 afr from when boost hits all the way to redline. Sometimes a lean spike right when I go wot and boost is around 10psi but once it pasts that it richens up just fine. I will try to fix that on they dyno. With the injectors and base timing at 1* I see 22* max at around 5500rpm. Im thinking of going back to base timng and running 25-26* timing to see if that gives me a little more power and drivability.
 
How much boost do you plan on running? I heard the crushed 1g bov is good until 25psi. I answered a couple of your other questions in your other thread in the newbie section.

probably what you said max (25psi). let me read again that thread i started in the newbie to refresh my memory :) as i said, my brain is already fried!

chris b
 
JayRolla: I just took off my PTE scm6031(60-1) because i couldnt run anything over 28psi. The hot side is too restrictive and i was getting so much backpressure that it was pushing open the wg. If you want to run more boost than that you will have to run an external with a heavy spring. I was getting 45psi backpressure at 7500rpm at 30psi boost.

I just got my car back running sunday with a WH1C. My first impression is that it spools faster and ill be able to run more boost with it. This is on the holset housing and a non-divided ebay header. The WH1C mounts the wg actuator on the exhaust housing, so it always lines up correctly no matter how the compressor is clocked. Since you are going to run high boost anyways, the stock actuator will probably be fine for you too. Mine creeps to 30psi, but i have no exhaust attached to it. If it didnt creep, i think the stock actuator will probably open in the low 20s. Ill take some pictures this weekend. It was too dark by the time i got it running.

I have a hx40 comming though. Im experimenting with the WH1C because i have maybe $20 into the whole setup and the things that i bought will transfer to the 40. Its kinda aggravating since i just spent $380 to have the PTE fixed.

dsm-onster: Im running 1000cc injectors with maft/afc on e85. It works fine for me and i even have the original crap version of maft.

chrisb33: Dodge mod should be fine. Mine seals at 35psi. I havent tested above that yet.

95tzlgst: Crushed bov is old school. The dodge mod is much better, IMHO
 
Thanks. Will there be any disadvantage if i use the OEM holset housing? assuming im willing to have a custom tubular manifold for it? or should i stick with the BEP mitsu housing?

chris b

The only disagvantage is that is going to spool too fast/3500rpm, ask Matt, I have HX-40/. If you use stock Holset divided housing, it is better for you to get a divided exhaust manifold, to take advantage of the divided housing. That is a "little" extra cash. If I was you I will go with HX-40, most likely Mitsu/ BEP bolt-on. It is up to you. Try to read Holset3 and 4 threads and make up your mind. If you still have some doubts, go ahead and ask some more questions.
 
The only disagvantage is that is going to spool too fast/3500rpm, ask Matt, I have HX-40/. If you use stock Holset divided housing, it is better for you to get a divided exhaust manifold, to take advantage of the divided housing. That is a "little" extra cash. If I was you I will go with HX-40, most likely Mitsu/ BEP bolt-on. It is up to you. Try to read Holset3 and 4 threads and make up your mind. If you still have some doubts, go ahead and ask some more questions.

sorry for all the questions that may have been asked before, but like i said, ive been doing my reading and have been trying to absorb what i can about holset turbos but the threads are really long so i just ask questions directly to what i need to know.

As for making up my mind, im still researching/reading/asking people questions about holset coz this holset thing is really new to me. Im still even confused about running it internal or external gate coz ive read different experiences with running it internal.

like i got this email from a guy selling a used 2g hx35 with a 12 cm, internally gated exhaust housing, 3inch outlet for $300. Im not sure if this is a good deal, and if this hx35 variant is what im looking for.

as hx35 or hx40, i think the decision will be based on economics coz i believe (confimed by dsm-onster) that the hx35 can give what im trying to achieve which is 400whp with room to grow.

having said that i think i just answered my question - go with the hx35 mitsu BEP housing, ported mitsu exhaust mani - the cheaper route.

if i need more power, im planning to do pre and post-turbo meth injection anyway so that will eliminate surge limits so no need to upgrade the turbo (as long as it doesnt break).

chris b
 
Oops! i forgot that e-85 likes 30% more fuel to be stoich. The timing is to aggresive for 800cc injectors with pumpgas and an safc/maft; but probably about right for e-85, since it burns slower and needs more timing advance.

The bolton BEP housing with the hx35 turbine wheel will provide less back pressure than a scm6031. This is because the bolton BEP housing is relatively close to the size of the bolton PTE housing and the hx35/h1c turbine wheel flows more than the t-31 6031 turbine wheel. A higher flowing wheel will DRASTICALLY reduce backpressure. Like clipping. And you can get away with a smaller turbine housing since the turbine housing has much less effect. Yes, you should be much happier ridding yourself of that t31 60-1 (scm6031). The turbine wheel is TERRIBLY undersized for the compressor. Which will actually add to lag. And there's no way you could ever reach the potential of the 60-1 compressor with that turbine. So all the lag is for naught.

Interestingly, a divided runner manifold and twin scroll housing flows more for the same backpressure. And shields the cylinders from seeing that back pressure. Still, for your goal, Jayrolla, you can't beat the ease and flow of a bolton housing hx35. As i mentioned, you're running e-85 you should absolutely be able to meet your goal with the hx35 and you'll have fast spool to boot. And you too chrisb33.

. . . Unless you both are VERY sure you'll be wanting 100+ whp more later. Even then the spool speed of the hx35 is worth upgrading later for that goal. You can buy a used holset and sell it later for the same price. . .
 
Interestingly, a divided runner manifold and twin scroll housing flows more for the same backpressure. And shields the cylinders from seeing that back pressure. Still, for your goal, Jayrolla, you can't beat the ease and flow of a bolton housing hx35. As i mentioned, you're running e-85 you should absolutely be able to meet your goal with the hx35 and you'll have fast spool to boot. And you too chrisb33.

. . . Unless you both are VERY sure you'll be wanting 100+ whp more later. Even then the spool speed of the hx35 is worth upgrading later for that goal. You can buy a used holset and sell it later for the same price. . .

I just sent you a pm fyi. Anyway, i only want to run pump gas with meth pre TB and pre-turbo. My whp goal would stick to 400-450 max. I dont think more than that will benefit me in the streets in my country. Im no track racer.

and IIRC, and my understanding is right, pre-turbo meth injection increases the airflow capacity of a turbo hence changing its compressor map and eliminates surge. Please correct me if im wrong.

So if i understand you correctly, best bet is to go hx35, BEP mistu housing, and port exhaust mani right (as stated in previous PM)?

chris b
 
Yes, those parts would be the sure thing.

As for pre-turbo water injection. . . you don't have surge with the hx35 in the bep housing anyway. Nor will you ever reach the limit of the compressor. Thus, there's no need for artificially extending the map. It will be very effective at cooling the aircharge. But post turbo will be nearly as effective if using wiperfluid or other alcohol mix. All the pre-turbo water injection will give you is a slightly faster spool. Which is a good thing, but since you live so far away from a competent turbo rebuilder, I suggest not chancing having the droplets improperly injected or be too large. Of course, it's your call. And there's really no concrete evidence that there is blade erosion when the proper injecting techniques are employed.
 
The bolton BEP housing with the hx35 turbine wheel will provide less back pressure than a scm6031. This is because the bolton BEP housing is relatively close to the size of the bolton PTE housing and the hx35/h1c turbine wheel flows more than the t-31 6031 turbine wheel. A higher flowing wheel will DRASTICALLY reduce backpressure. Like clipping. And you can get away with a smaller turbine housing since the turbine housing has much less effect. Yes, you should be much happier ridding yourself of that t31 60-1 (scm6031). The turbine wheel is TERRIBLY undersized for the compressor. Which will actually add to lag. And there's no way you could ever reach the potential of the 60-1 compressor with that turbine. So all the lag is for naught.

Im using the holset housings for my current setup. I wish i would have had my scm6031 upgraded to a scm6152 when it was being worked on. It was only going to cost an extra $150, but the tech at precision said it would only raise the max output up 30hp. Had i went that route i probably wouldnt have learned about the holsets, so it worked out in the end.

Any opinions on what to expect when i go from a wh1c in a 12cm housing to a hx40 with a 18cm housing?
 
Yes, those parts would be the sure thing.

As for pre-turbo water injection. . . you don't have surge with the hx35 in the bep housing anyway. Nor will you ever reack the limit of the compressor. Thus, there's no need for artificially extending the map. It will be very effective. But post turbo will be nearly as effective. All the pre-turbo water injection will give you is a slightly faster spool. Which is a good thing, but since you live so far away from a competent turbo rebuilder, I suggest not chancing having the droplets improperly injected or be too large. Of course, it's your call. And there's really no concrete evidence that there is blade erosion when the proper injecting techniques are employed.

great! now i know the direction i have to take in my turbo build.
another question though. Can i use the hx35's internal wastegate? or do i need an external?

as for the pre-meth injection, i just really want to give it a shot. as you said, there's really no concrete evidence that there is blade erosion if done properly. If it will give me a slightly faster spool then thats a + on my end. Im planning to install the pre-turbo injector as far away from the compressor as possible and run probably an m3 nozzle max. Thats per my discussion with turboglenn.

anyway, here's a pic of the hx35 being offered to me. Let me know what you think. thanks.

chris b
 

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Im using the holset housings for my current setup. I wish i would have had my scm6031 upgraded to a scm6152 when it was being worked on. It was only going to cost an extra $150, but the tech at precision said it would only raise the max output up 30hp. Had i went that route i probably wouldnt have learned about the holsets, so it worked out in the end.

Any opinions on what to expect when i go from a wh1c in a 12cm housing to a hx40 with a 18cm housing?

That guy is feeding you horsesh!t. I can't believe the rediculous 'turbo builders'. They tell you that this turbo is rated for 600whp. . . When that is only the compressor. They know good and well that it is nearly impossible for a 4cylinder to get that kind of power out of a t31 wheel even with a .84 a/r turbine housing and tubular header. Yea their rating of the turbo would only go up 30hp, but you can't get the maximum power out of 60-1 wheel anyway. Upgrading to the t350 wheel would have netted you 50 or so horsepower easily and given you the ability to actually get to their rated hp level of the 6031. The 6031 spools faster than the 6052 FOR A REASON. And they should tell you that. . .

The hx40 spools 500-600 rpms later with the same BEP housing vs. a wh1c/hx35. An 18cm^2 housing is MUCH bigger than a 12cm^2 housing. I STRONGLY recommend running a true divided-runner manifold with the stock 18cm^2 housing and an hx40 turbine wheel. Having the runners divided will make all the difference in the world for spooling the hx40. How fast does the wh1c spool with the non-divided header and stock turbine housing?
 
great! now i know the direction i have to take in my turbo build.
another question though. Can i use the hx35's internal wastegate? or do i need an external?

as for the pre-meth injection, i just really want to give it a shot. as you said, there's really no concrete evidence that there is blade erosion if done properly. If it will give me a slightly faster spool then thats a + on my end. Im planning to install the pre-turbo injector as far away from the compressor as possible and run probably an m3 nozzle max. Thats per my discussion with turboglenn.

anyway, here's a pic of the hx35 being offered to me. Let me know what you think. thanks.

chris b

I have that exact one look at around page 10 or something LOL.
 
Scott. The revlimiter is at 9000rpm right now. We were only going to 8500 though. Went over once or twice to make sure the tune would carry on with the new custom dsmlink setup and turbo. Most of the pulls he wouldn't take it over 8000 though. I had to keep calling him a ####y before he finally manned up.

Steven
 
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