From what I've seen, low pressure drop appears more important than good cooling.

The ebay core may look nice and straight through, but it still has reasonably high pressure drop somehow. I changed from 2.5" to 3" piping, the intercooler, and to a Q45 throttle body and my pressure drop, end-end, went from ~3psi to low enough that I can't call off a number (sensor will accurately read 0.1psi differential).

I picked up 15% power at the same boost level with the new intercooler. The only change besides the intercooler and piping was I went up from a 1.1AR to a 1.25AR turbine housing. So far, I've only run it at about 17-18psi because I was fighting other issues. At this power level, the two turbine housings shouldn't make much difference at all.

Kevin

blcknspo0ln said:

I'm so tempted to get an air sensor + ETS ultra short route FMIC to compare. Anyone have a grand to spare!?

Click to expand...

I know I don't NEED to spend a grand on a FMIC, but this is my "non ebay if i can help it"/ last eclipse I want to own, and.. I plan on buying the ETS ulta short route FMIC in two weeks or so. I am only running a e3 16g, but am shooting for ~20psi on pump, maybe only 18lbs if the gas sucks enough like I am hearing.

could I be of use to you?

Intercooler prices are worse gauging then gas. Piece of aluminum.

The only reason I'd burn my money is to get a kit where I can keep my fogs.

Atuca said:

I know I don't NEED to spend a grand on a FMIC, but this is my "non ebay if i can help it"/ last eclipse I want to own, and.. I plan on buying the ETS ulta short route FMIC in two weeks or so. I am only running a e3 16g, but am shooting for ~20psi on pump, maybe only 18lbs if the gas sucks enough like I am hearing.

could I be of use to you?

Click to expand...

And I'm running a SSAC kit with a small 16g. I also have an AEM IAT installed and logged through DSMlink. I don't know if this would be a decent comparison or not. Just figured I'd throw it out there.

snowborder714 said:

And I'm running a SSAC kit with a small 16g. I also have an AEM IAT installed and logged through DSMlink. I don't know if this would be a decent comparison or not. Just figured I'd throw it out there.

Click to expand...

And????? What did where some of your findings?

Wish I had known you were looking to upgrade. Then I'd convince you to sell me your e-bay kit for cheap and spend money one a real fmic setup. I just picked up an SSAC ebay special last week and should have it on soon. I'm curious to see how it helps at the track compared to my tiny fmic that was on there.

Subscribed.

blcknspo0ln said:

I'm so tempted to get an air sensor + ETS ultra short route FMIC to compare. Anyone have a grand to spare!?

Click to expand...

rich3389 said:

And????? What did where some of your findings?

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I just did a pull yesterday. The outside temperature was about 73 or so. When I started the pull, my IAT temps were at 90. The had previously been sitting around the mid to upper 80's when I was driving to the highway. They then dropped to 85 around 4500rpm's and then to 84 at 4800rpm's. They sat at 84 until 6000rpm's and then slowly rose over the last 700rpm's to top out at the very end of the run at 88. After the run, they dropped back down to 85 and then slowly rose to 88 at the end of the log.

The log is attached. The temps are listed under GMIAT and I also have a wideband listed under TEWNLin. The car isn't tuned yet.

gsxAWDdsm692 said:

Intercooler prices are worse gauging then gas. Piece of aluminum.

The only reason I'd burn my money is to get a kit where I can keep my fogs.

Click to expand...

Actually a good chunk of the reason raw material pricing has increased so much (which those in the industry might not know about) is from fuel pricing. When it costs raw material suppliers a bunch more to bring product to market we all see that increase. The rest is the difference between an imported product and ours for example, would be that our stuff is hand fabricated in America with craftsmanship and materials second to none, decades of experience in design and engineering, a lifetime warranty and the customer service and support we have available every weekday from 8-5. It is of course up to the buyer to determine what is most worthwhile, but it would be an understatement to say that there is a significant amount of value added from one to the other

Tom

Well put, Tom.

BTW, I called ETS today and heard Tom's voice, yes, he is human, not just this amazing intercooler guru builder dude.

Now, I am actually gonna be getting a new FMIC, while details havn't been worked out, but I am getting a FMIC and there will be a measurment of temperature in the intake, along with other tests measuring the benefits of a FMIC before and after.

Is there any specific things you are looking for? The fmic will either be a greddy 24, or a ETS ultra short route, and if I have my way, it will be the ETS. Either way greddy is a "real" enough FMIC that it should give some decent intake numbers to look at, will update as soon as I get the result.

Wow, thanks for looking us all out. I'm really interested in the results because it will finally end the debate of the infamous chinaBAY products versus the tried-and-true DSM products out there. GM IAT, spoolup, knock count, etc would be great information to find out about. Doing back to back pulls with link would be the most ideal

What would be cool is if Tom could make us an intercooler smaller than the SSAC, flows better than the ssac (which all of ETS's do) and have it bolt up to the same way as the SSAC. This way we can still use our piping, use their core and have it smaller to where we can fit our fog lights.

To reiterate since this seems to have been lost in the mix:

I picked up 15% power at ~17psi going from the biggest ebay intercooler (core 12x4x24) over to the biggest Garrett bar and plate core (12.75x5.1x28).

Pressure drop went from 2-3psi at low boost to non-existent.

Air temps end at about the same temperature they started and some pulls lasted as long as 15 seconds.

This gain is absolutely HUGE and this started with a core that is bigger than the SSAC 2g kit. I want it to be clear that there absolutely are gains by going to a 'real' FMIC (as the topic states).

Kevin

Awww bugger, I am getting the Greddy 24V. But hey, who can complain when it is free?

Anyways, they are going to check my temps in the intake and the radiator on a stock SMIC, than swap in a full greddy kit and test again. Doing 3 dyno pulls without tuning back to back with each setup, 3 for stock, 3 with FMIC. I will have DSMlink log each of the pulls, but I am not going ot be able to tune the car before the run, as I am a total n00b to dsmlink and don't want to hurt the car before the dyno runs.

I want my free FMIC and than run like hell from there! But hey, at least I will get to do my first dyno runs, I will get real numbers! too bad they will suck ### i am basicly stock hehe.

This is happening this week, maybe next week, will be called later today, and I wll update again than.

gsxAWDdsm692 said:

Intercooler prices are worse gauging then gas. Piece of aluminum.

The only reason I'd burn my money is to get a kit where I can keep my fogs.

Click to expand...

You sir are ignorant. An intercooler is much more than a piece of aluminum. Internal fin DESIGN (that means that there is testing involved) is very important for pulling heat from air. External fin design is also very important. How many fins per inch can dictact how much air will flow through your intercooler to find your radaitor and how much air will build in front of the front mount and spill around it, thus causing you cooling issues to another important system on your car. Calling an intercooler "piece of aluminum" and placing them all on the same level is flat out ignorant.


Thanks Kiggly and Tom for the great information. Glad to see that I have been right about these cores all along I wonder if I could have my negative rep points taken away

kiggly said:

From what I've seen, low pressure drop appears more important than good cooling.

The ebay core may look nice and straight through, but it still has reasonably high pressure drop somehow. I changed from 2.5" to 3" piping, the intercooler, and to a Q45 throttle body and my pressure drop, end-end, went from ~3psi to low enough that I can't call off a number (sensor will accurately read 0.1psi differential).

I picked up 15% power at the same boost level with the new intercooler. The only change besides the intercooler and piping was I went up from a 1.1AR to a 1.25AR turbine housing. So far, I've only run it at about 17-18psi because I was fighting other issues. At this power level, the two turbine housings shouldn't make much difference at all.

Kevin

Click to expand...

Would you say that the low pressure drop is so important because your turbo doesn't have to work nearly as hard to reach your desired psi thus resulting in lower outlet temps at the turbo? More of a win win?

wishihadatalon said:

Would you say that the low pressure drop is so important because your turbo doesn't have to work nearly as hard to reach your desired psi thus resulting in lower outlet temps at the turbo? More of a win win?

Click to expand...

Exactly.

Ripped from Turbocharger Compressor Calculations

Tout = Tin + Tin x [-1+(Pout/Pin)^0.263]
.................................efficiency

If you do the calculations, you'll see that 2-3 psi makes a very real world difference in terms of compressor outlet temps.

Exhaust pressure changes are at least as big a deal as compressor outlet temperatures. As you lower the intercooler system pressure drop, the turbine doesn't have to work as hard to spin the compressor. This is a really, really big deal as you cross over from an unfavorable intake-exhaust pressure ratio (<1.0) to a favorable ratio (>1.0). Valve overlap can change from a bad thing to a good thing and all kinds of other things change for the better.

Kevin

kiggly said:

Exhaust pressure changes are at least as big a deal as compressor outlet temperatures. As you lower the intercooler system pressure drop, the turbine doesn't have to work as hard to spin the compressor. This is a really, really big deal as you cross over from an unfavorable intake-exhaust pressure ratio (<1.0) to a favorable ratio (>1.0). Valve overlap can change from a bad thing to a good thing and all kinds of other things change for the better.

Kevin

Click to expand...

Very cool stuff, thanks. Is your car going to be at the BR race next weekend?

wishihadatalon said:

Very cool stuff, thanks. Is your car going to be at the BR race next weekend?

Click to expand...

That is the plan. I plan to test it this Friday to be sure everything is working right before Norwalk.

kiggly said:

That is the plan. I plan to test it this Friday to be sure everything is working right before Norwalk.

Click to expand...

Still debating if I am going to go or not. If I go I will try to talk to you, seeing as I only got to ask you one question at the shootout before Dean had to get back in the staging lanes and you were off hard and work again

Man, thanks Kevin for all of the solid information. With your reputation, I find it hard pressed to ask you for proof This pretty much sealed the deal for a move to a 4" core very soon

blcknspo0ln said:

Man, thanks Kevin for all of the solid information. With your reputation, I find it hard pressed to ask you for proof This pretty much sealed the deal for a move to a 4" core very soon

Click to expand...

Remember also that Kevin's car is not a DD that sits in traffic in 90*F with the A/C on, so some compromise may be needed if not a track-only car

A/C would be the only compromise in getting a bigger, more efficient intercooler though. There are really any others. Not so much the intercooler though, it would be the piping to the intercooler that would mess things up a bit.

We've fit some very large (4" and 5") cores in front of the AC, it just requires a bit of bumper cover trimming. For very big cores, the install is actually minimally invasive

Tom