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499awhp on a 16G

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The point I was trying to make is that at a greater pressure differential, a given area will be able to flow more. This is why flow benches are standardized, and you can convert them from different pressure levels. Flow a head at 15psi vs. 30psi and you'll see a big difference, the proverbial "straw" analogy works h ere. The other thing is that you are moving compressed air. 1 cubic foot of air at 15psi has less air mass than 1 cubic foot of air at 30psi. Same reason you run out of breath in the rockies, less pressure, less dense. So it's not as simple as directly interchanging them, there are many other factors that come into play when you raise the boost. I'm sure when you raise the compression ratio other strange things happen, but I'm less well read on those.

Lol, I don't think I could dig up the formulas even if I wanted to.

So, yeah, the end result of the compression stroke will be the same pressure (30psi @ 5:1 vs. 15psi @ 10:1, or whatever that works out to be), but the way the cold side flows is different from 30psi to 15psi. Which makes more power? I feel the evidence points to low compression high boost in a race application. For the street, I don't know. For the 4g? I know even less. We should probably ask Rau or Shep. 10:1ish obviously works for making 500hp on a 16g, which is really astounding!
 
tkelly27 said:
The point I was trying to make is that at a greater pressure differential, a given area will be able to flow more. This is why flow benches are standardized, and you can convert them from different pressure levels. Flow a head at 15psi vs. 30psi and you'll see a big difference, the proverbial "straw" analogy works h ere. The other thing is that you are moving compressed air. 1 cubic foot of air at 15psi has less air mass than 1 cubic foot of air at 30psi. Same reason you run out of breath in the rockies, less pressure, less dense. So it's not as simple as directly interchanging them, there are many other factors that come into play when you raise the boost, and I'm sure when you raise the compression ratio other strange things happen, but I'm less well read on those.

Lol, I don't think I could dig up the formulas even if I wanted to.

So, yeah, the end result of the compression stroke will be the same pressure (30psi @ 5:1 vs. 15psi @ 10:1, or whatever that works out to be), but the way the cold side flows is different from 30psi to 15psi. Which makes more power? I feel the evidence points to low compression high boost in a race application. For the street, I don't know. For the 4g? I know even less. We should probably ask Rau or Shep. 10:1ish obviously works for making 500hp on a 16g, which is really astounding!
Click to expand...
Running out of breath and hp are similar but do not balance/equate with each other. Strange thing is that raising the compression always increases hp, regardless of boost or initial compression ratio (under a high number). Why is everyone so insistant that there's magic wrk done here. Nate's told you that it is a compilation of parts. Will 10:1 compression give someone else these results?

But I digress. You're right in the sense that a compressor has it's limit. Falling to 22 psi to 7500+rpms at 100% VE (likely with the JM fab SMIM, 272s, and FP race exhaust manifold,plus the "other tricks") is boasting of 49 lbs/min. . .
 
I'm not insisting there is magic. All I said was that when you raise boost, you increase the ability for the parts on the cold side to flow air (higher pressure differential) and you flow air that is more dense (more mass per cubic unit of length). As far as I've heard, that's not magic, that's a fact jack ;)

Never referenced the ability of the compressor to flow, I'm talking about the throttle body, cylinder head, valves, and intake tract.
 
Wow, I missed ALOT! LOL

I'll say this again, there is no magic voodoo tuning here, I'm just doing my job. The car is setup correctly with all the right parts. After YEARS of R&D and building DSMs, we've found what works. After the last trip to the track we've decided to pull the 16g and put on an FP HTA35R.

If you guys have any questions feel free to PM me or shoot me an email, [email protected] as I can address everything a little bit better and more personally!

Nate
TPG
 
It's hard to not want to make the drive over and get my car tuned. I feel that strongly about it.

My motor is built pretty well, and I believe it would respond very well with a 16g and a good tune.

Nate, if your ever out in the Boston area for whatever reason, let us know. Perhaps if there was enough interest, and you had the time, things could be arranged for you to travel over this way.
 
red91gst said:
Wow, I missed ALOT! LOL

I'll say this again, there is no magic voodoo tuning here, I'm just doing my job. The car is setup correctly with all the right parts. After YEARS of R&D and building DSMs, we've found what works. After the last trip to the track we've decided to pull the 16g and put on an FP HTA35R.

If you guys have any questions feel free to PM me or shoot me an email, [email protected] as I can address everything a little bit better and more personally!

Nate
TPG
Click to expand...

You mean we're not even going to get the chance to see just how fast the 16g would push the car down the track :notgood: Come on at least give us one good track day with a couple good runs to see how low it can go!
 
I don't think John is really down for running anymore, maybe in high school or something. He just strikes me as more of a volleyball player then a person that would throw on some sneakers and go for a jog :)
 
SBstar said:
You mean we're not even going to get the chance to see just how fast the 16g would push the car down the track :notgood: Come on at least give us one good track day with a couple good runs to see how low it can go!
Click to expand...

I know what you mean. I would like to see what it would do as well. But for the most part, you can just look at his power to weight ratio, see what other cars have done with that, and you would have a pretty good and general idea of what he would be running.
 
He trapped 134mph. I don't think anything else matters for the rest of us. Because ET is influenced by the driving skill and other non-horsepower related work. At 2700 lbs and 134mph you can see the horsepower.
 
Ya pretty much what I am trying to say.

Cant wait to see what kind of numbers it will be making next though.
 
Curt I know you don't give out all of your secrets but.... Is the compression Higher than 10:0? You don't have to tell me what it is but I'd appreciate a higher or lower answer if you would be so kind. :sneaky:

Thank You!

-Noah
 
dsm-onster said:
He trapped 134mph. I don't think anything else matters for the rest of us. Because ET is influenced by the driving skill and other non-horsepower related work. At 2700 lbs and 134mph you can see the horsepower.
Click to expand...

Still would've been nice to see 9's on an awd car with a 16g.
 
Gsxy99 said:
ehh, the tuner uses nitrous in his 91gsx. id say he convinced the owner of the 16g to do the same. 499 horse 16g, internally gated? not buying it
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with you. I like to do my own research which only scratches the surface of a topic (the more I learn, the more I realize I DO NOT know) but there are too many intentionally omitted variables. The 16g IS a SMALL turbo rated 565 CFM at 15psi. Whether or not this is an underrated value is another story but there has to be something like Nitrous, meth injection along with a 'lightened drivetrain'. :confused:
 
Curt Brown is a well known and proven DSM legend. I"m not on his nuts but this guy didn't use Nitrous. I believe he used a 12:1:1+ compression engine (Guess) and pushed the 16G to it's limit. Not to mention a well built head and other means of extracting power. Please understand that a 16G @ a moderate 20psi on high compression would be almost 400whp right there. If you ask nice he might even give you a few hints....Hmmmmm????

CFM of the turbo is only part of a "Turbo Cars" Horsepower Potential. Remember as a rule of thumb that every point of compression is equivelent to 3.7psi boost pressure. So a high compression engine has more "Static Compression" and has the potential to make more power. Just food for thought...
 
1g4my2g said:
Curt Brown is a well known and proven DSM legend. I"m not on his nuts but this guy didn't use Nitrous. I believe he used a 12:1:1+ compression engine (Guess) and pushed the 16G to it's limit. Not to mention a well built head and other means of extracting power. Please understand that a 16G @ a moderate 20psi on high compression would be almost 400whp right there. If you ask nice he might even give you a few hints....Hmmmmm????

CFM of the turbo is only part of a "Turbo Cars" Horsepower Potential. Remember as a rule of thumb that every point of compression is equivelent to 3.7psi boost pressure. So a high compression engine has more "Static Compression" and has the potential to make more power. Just food for thought...
Click to expand...

Ok then, so what does it mean if I have a built forged engine with 9:1 compression (195 psi+ on comp tester for all cyls) and running the Evo III 13psi on stock fuel system at 13psi and no boost-knock? I know this could only be around 215 HP on a decent day. This is probably an overly-conservative estemate. If I used an 18g at 20psi what would that mean? Since CFM is a horsepower potential how is the turbo rated? Do they spin it without pipes and an intercooler on the outlet and no air filter on the intake then measure how much air or boost it makes?
 
Rob10_99 said:
So I have always ran a stock 6-bolt bottom end. 7.8-1 compression.
My recent engine builds with the honda crowd, which range anywhere from 8.8-13.7-1 have made me wonder why the DSM crowd doesn't usually up the compression more than 8.5-1 or even 9-1?
A friend I work with is dead set on building turbo hondas with 10-1 compression.
I have heard/read in the past that anything over 10-1 is not suitable for boosting, such as 10.5+.
His B20vtec 35r powered SI hits 20psi at around 4400rpm.(520whp on c16, theres more but it was a quickie tune).
Back to the point.
What has kept us DSM'ers from using 10-1 pistons?
I have been on this board for YEARS. And read probably every post thats on this site.
I had always believed that 8-1 pistons and more boost/timing was the answer,
Now I think I have changed my mind on that issue, even up to 10-1 and 20psi seems to be the fastest to me.
(this goes along with WHY 500whp is achievable on a 4g63)
I for some reason think us DSM'ers have been pushed into buying 8.5-1 pistons for soo long,
The whole "turn up the boost" theory is good, but not the most powerful.
Anyone else think the same?
/rant
Click to expand...

I second that point as I'm aiming for at least 10.5:1 or maybe even 11.0:1 on a small frame stockish or at least a stock appearing turbo to say the least. Can anyone say it 550+awhp on a 16G with about 450ish awhp on pump gas who knows I may even look to put down the 600awhp max who knows.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Black_Bullet said:
Your build/your setup your goals all play a large factor in what compression ratio would be best for your motor.
I've read from a few reliable sources that on an average setup the compression increase generally gives about only 4% more power. I don't know all the variables though, and that could be more pronounced the higher up in compression you go.

In my unproffessional opinion, I think pump gas would look good around 8.5:1 to 9.1:1 compression with the typical 50trim tune etc.
With e85 or strict race gas, or methonal vehicle, 9.5:1 to 10.1:1 would be ideal.
I don't know if there's any gain in going beyond 10.1 if trying to run a lot of boost.
That would be a lot of stress with tuning, and most people should have some leeway in their setups. Its like with running too much timing advance, there's probably a point of demishing gains.

I'm positive it would be pointless to sacrifice a lot of boost for a little bit of compression as Im sure boost typically always makes more power then timing and compression and leaner AFR;s, but something ive always wondered is what gives larger power increases when added with that high boost- higher compression, or higher timing advance...?

Whenever i have to rebuild my stock 6bolt i'm going 9.1:1 compression forged pistons btw.

Since I'm sure no one likes to lower their boost for this type of stuff,
on pump gas how much timing advance does this cause you to sacrifice for a knock free tune?
Do you have to take out timing timing vs your old compression ratio?
Click to expand...

Not like you would think as there is a member on this site that has pushed the envelope for an entire race season on his high compression (11.5:1) in big turbo(Gt-35R 20-30psi) build(625whp at 20psi thru the auto)with and without nitrous(575whp at 26psi also thru the auto).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
10's or bust said:
I second that point as I'm aiming for at least 10.5:1 or maybe even 11.0:1 on a small frame stockish or at least a stock appearing turbo to say the least. Can anyone say it 550+awhp on a 16G with about 450ish awhp on pump gas who knows I may even look to put down the 600awhp max who knows.
Click to expand...
I would honestly go for 1000hp.
 
red91gst said:
Just got off the dyno with Curt's 1G and as promised the car made just under 500awhp. This is on a standard E316g internally gated. Standard turbine and compressor wheels, no tricks.

Short Mod List:

High Compression 2.0l
Slightly Ported Head
FP Race Cams
FP Manifold
FP E316G
JMF Intake Manifold
Buschur FMIC
Light Weight Drivetrain Stuff

32psi on C16
Tuned by Me w/ DSMlink

The car will be at the track this Sunday.

Any questions, feel free to ask; But please no "its voodoo magic, didn't happen, impossible, no way in hell, can't be done" posts :).
Click to expand...

How much do you charge for a tune and where you out of?
 
red91gst said:
Just got off the dyno with Curt's 1G and as promised the car made just under 500awhp. This is on a standard E316g internally gated. Standard turbine and compressor wheels, no tricks.

Short Mod List:

High Compression 2.0l
Slightly Ported Head
FP Race Cams
FP Manifold
FP E316G
JMF Intake Manifold
Buschur FMIC
Light Weight Drivetrain Stuff

32psi on C16
Tuned by Me w/ DSMlink

The car will be at the track this Sunday.

Any questions, feel free to ask; But please no "its voodoo magic, didn't happen, impossible, no way in hell, can't be done" posts :).
Click to expand...
Hello, I have a 16g turbo with 1000cc injectors and just can’t get it to pull right at all with the base 2g tune. Is there any way I can buy a tune from you or someone that makes maybe 300 or anywhere around there until I get it dyno tuned? I just hate trying to keep trying with my “tune” and mess something up. Please and thank you!
 
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