underradar92 said:

Heck, even your part out list barely cracks $10,000.00. Not a big downpayment on a working, reliable, fun track-day beast. .

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Such is the dilemma in selling a race car. For anyone else to build such a car from scratch would cost $20,000 in parts, not including the labor and the two years it takes to properly sort it out. Glenn Collier said it took him two years to sort his and, bigawd, it's taken me two years to sort mine.

I suppose any mechanical DSM genius could do it himself. I am fortunate enough to have a fabulous crew who understands the car, can fabricate all the parts we need, and takes a personal interest in keeping it running. Anyone who is neither a genius nor has a crew would have to pay somebody to put the car together and keep it running.

I pity the fool who tries to do this all by himself from scratch. I believe DSMs have potential to be class winners, but it will take an awful lot of time, money and work to build a world beater.

Yet, in the current market, I can't get a decent price for the car or the parts.
Such is life in the race car biz.

underradar92 said:

I don't know what it'd take to make that Eclipse into a low maintenence, reliable car for a full season, but I'd try that option. I realize that may push your crew over the edge, however.

Low maintenence DSM... It must be possible.

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I was discussing this with another guy in the crew and we thought it'd take two things: put the balance shafts back in and install a new wiring harness (or rewire with only what's needed). I think those two things will help tremendously.

We need to reduce the vibration caused problems. I couldn't believe how smooth Ludachris's car was and he has the 2.3 with balance shafts. As long as you aren't revving out to 9000rpm, I'm told, you should be fine with fresh balance shaft hardware. I'm told the problem is that people use old, tired parts and then rev it out to the stratosphere. So now those parts are spinning twice as fast and become the weak link. I think with new parts, it should be okay to 7000rpm. Much higher isn't necessary with all the torque that stroker makes.

Likewise, if the wiring was fresh, than we'd have much fewer trackside problems with wires coming out of connectors and insulation cracking off. We carry a big toolbox containing just electrical tools and connectors. Anyone know if we can get new harnesses from Mitsu for a 90? I'll have to get into CAPS to find the part numbers and see if they're available. I'm debating doing this on my track car as well since it's a 92. I don't want to deal with these issues.

So the problem is that both of these look to be fairly expensive and time consuming, but maybe not. It needs research. I think it'd be worth it though since the alternative is parting the car out or selling it as is. The car would be a completely different animal with those items replaced.

stealthTT said:

As long as you aren't revving out to 9000rpm, I'm told, you should be fine with fresh balance shaft hardware. .

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According to the dyno sheet, the 2.3 stroker makes maximum hp and torque at 6500, so there is no need to rev beyond that. If I was going to keep the car, I'd put the balance shafts back in. OTOH, if a new owner wanted to take it up to 600hp, he'd want to keep the balance shafts out.

underradar92 said:

Low maintenence DSM... It must be possible.

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To be honest, I feel my DSM is very low maintenence for how often it is raced/daily drivin. I attend track days, auto-x's, the occational drag stip visit, and countless late night beat runs in my talon and have done nothing more than regular oil changes on her with the exception of having to replace the center diff once this summer.

A DSM can be just as reliable as any other car.

talonTSIDriver said:

To be honest, I feel my DSM is very low maintenence for how often it is raced/daily drivin. I attend track days, auto-x's, the occational drag stip visit, and countless late night beat runs in my talon and have done nothing more than regular oil changes on her with the exception of having to replace the center diff once this summer.

A DSM can be just as reliable as any other car.

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I believe this to be true... However I have been fighting mine all summer... I do have an Painless harness and my balancing shafts have been removed but I have a very well balanced 2.0 It feels like a stock motor but it runs a .60 trim.

I would absolutely hate to part the car because its so close to being a top performer! It really just needs TLC and attention to the details. I think I am getting the problems worked out BUT:

I have been having drivetrain issues non stop!

Its forsale in the classifieds and on NASA.Racingjunk (keep the wife happy and get back into a lower budget car=MUCH SLOWER). But if it doesn't sell I am going to race in next year and I hope to turn some heads. I am looking for a 1:40 at MAM

I am lucky I like Rich have an amazing crew of a little wacky car guys... Now just to hit 12's this year and possibly one more race if I can sneak it by the wife.

Rich is right Racing Competitively is EXPENSIVE and either you need the support of your family and friends, have no family, and have a large cash reserve that can be tapped at a moments notice...

RusherRacing said:

Rich is right Racing Competitively is EXPENSIVE and either you need the support of your family and friends, have no family, and have a large cash reserve that can be tapped at a moments notice...

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First, you have to build it ($20,000 to build my car)
Then, you have to sort it (two years, typically)
Then, you have to learn how to drive it fast (same two years)
When you can run with the big boys, you have to spend the same money they do on Hoosiers.

I got through the first three parts OK. Hoosiers were the final straw.

Rich

underradar92 said:

Low maintenence DSM... It must be possible.

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This comment was made "tongue in cheek", my car hasn't been unreliable at all to date. My current downtime could be regarded as normal maintenence, a lot of cars lose a gearbox at 140,000+ miles, most a lot less than that!

talonTSIDriver said:

A DSM can be just as reliable as any other car.

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I agree. Parts is parts, DSM's have been historically been subject to lives of ill-informed tuning, insane levels of abuse and poor maintainence, and it takes some time, patience and work to get back to a "zero point" of sorts.

Heck of a way to have gotten a bad rep, now a few of us get to learn from it.

Rich, I believe it would only cost way more cash to start over with another platform, so I still highly recommend hanging on to the Talon. I think Your crew can give you a low maintainence rig. It's a real fun car on all levels.

Yes, keep the Talon - just concentrate on the problem areas to make it reliable. These cars can be very reliable, but most of them are hacked beyond recognition.

Instead of removing the balance shafts - maybe just go back to stock engine mounts? This is how the Archer car is set up and I haven't had any issues.

BTW, I just signed up for Saturday at the RA F-Body event. I'll have to look you up.

Slow old poop said:

First, you have to build it ($20,000 to build my car)
Then, you have to sort it (two years, typically)
Then, you have to learn how to drive it fast (same two years)
When you can run with the big boys, you have to spend the same money they do on Hoosiers.

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I would also have to say in those first 2 years, expect to spend a lot more money. At least when i originally bought my car and purchasing aftermarket parts, i found out some of those parts were crap, or did not work they way i wanted them too. For a car to handle at its best, all the parts must work together.

Slow old poop said:

Yet, in the current market, I can't get a decent price for the car or the parts.

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Car money is toilet money. A car is not "the second biggest investment you'll make, after your house". It's the biggest loss you'll ever take.

EXACTLY - anything that depreciates over time is not an investment - it's an expense.

schemauer said:

EXACTLY - anything that depreciates over time is not an investment - it's an expense.

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The purpose of this discussion was to explore what my choices are when the time comes to sell out. I appreciate all the input and philosophy expressed here from fellow racers.

It looks (to me) that the key to sell whole or part out is the AMS 2.3 stroker engine: If that could bring a pretty penny on its own ($4K? 5K?) then it would pay me to part it out. Otherwise, sell the car for what the market will bear.

Somebody out there must want a car that could contend for the national championship in TTS. Just gotta find them.

Rich

I'd be interested in that cage you have. I am going to have the need for my 1g soon.

KazooGS-T said:

I'd be interested in that cage you have. I am going to have the need for my 1g soon.

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I will keep you in mind.

Have you lost interest in racing all together? Will things possibly change in 6 months or a year? The money is already spent on the car, so could you just park it in the garage for a bit and save?

I only get to run mine a couple of times a year, but I tinker with it all the time in the garage, and would hate to have to rebuy all of the parts that I have on the car.

For me, there is so much more to the time at the track. Winning would be great, but if thats all you concentrate on, then you miss out on having fun. Go run some wornout tires and take pride in who you beat with crap tires.

Its so hard to get a car to your level, and it sounds like you are right around the corner from having it reliable. I hate to see you give up the dream over something stupid like tire money.

Talonracn50 said:

Have you lost interest in racing all together? Will things possibly change in 6 months or a year? The money is already spent on the car, so could you just park it in the garage for a bit and save?

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I haven't lost the interest, just the will, desire and bankroll to compete at a high level. It isn't fun any more. The most fun I ever had was with my 3000GT when it was mostly stock. Trying to win a national championship is not fun.

Yes, I could keep the car and run it on used tires. But I LIKE running with the Big Boys. I like having one of the fastest cars on the track. I like attaining blazing speeds and competiitive lap times. But I just can't afford to keep running at that level.

And after running the DSM, I could never go to a Miata or something equally slow.

I will be very happy if somebody buys it and wins the National championship in TTS. I think it could do that.

Rich,

What I think is sad is that our cars will never be able to run head to head. I really wish I had a larger pocket book. I think I have all the major problems that plagued me all figured out, just to part the car out in a couple weeks like you are doing. At times I think i should spend $300 dollars I don't have and get a couple GOOD timed laps at MAM and see what this car can actually do. I really believe its capable of a 1:40-1:41 possibly faster with a top level driver. Hell I was stuck in 4th playing with lines running consistent 1:56 times completely babing it on the straight. (like 100mph vs 140-150 mph).

If you ever attend a track day at MAM with a future vehicle let me know. I am not going to quite completely just found out quickly I can't afford to compete at the top level.

RusherRacing said:

Rich, What I think is sad is that our cars will never be able to run head to head. I really wish I had a larger pocket book. I think I have all the major problems that plagued me all figured out, just to part the car out in a couple weeks like you are doing. At times I think i should spend $300 dollars I don't have and get a couple GOOD timed laps at MAM and see what this car can actually do. I really believe its capable of a 1:40-1:41 possibly faster with a top level driver. Hell I was stuck in 4th playing with lines running consistent 1:56 times completely babing it on the straight. (like 100mph vs 140-150 mph). If you ever attend a track day at MAM with a future vehicle let me know. I am not going to quite completely just found out quickly I can't afford to compete at the top level.

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We ran MAM last weekend. The ECU with DSMLink crashed, so we had to put the stock ECU and Apexi back in, which is only about 310 hp. Even so, I was turning consistent 1:47 laps on the old tune, and hitting 6000 rpm in 5th on the front straight (about 138 mph, just like you did). We finally got to scrub in the new 275 Hoosiers. With the Hoosiers, I was running right with the TTS cars, including one of the Corvettes that finished in the top 3 at the nationals. I only ran one session on the Hoosiers to scrub them in, and realized that I have to learn the lines all over again because the Hoosiers stick so well mid-corner they mess up all my normal lines. For example, my corner exit speeds were so high, I kept running over the gators and once spun it out between 3 and 4 (!!). I have to re-figure the lines so I know when to put the power down on corner out.

I figure that with Hoosiers, more sessions to re-learn the lines, and the 355 hp from DSMLink, I probably would have turned 1:40-1:41 lap times (as you predict), and I would have beaten the TTS Vette.

I ordered another socketed ECU so we can run DSMLink at Road America next weekend. I want to see 7200 rpm in 5th gear on the straights of RA.

RusherRacing said:

Rich,

What I think is sad is that our cars will never be able to run head to head. I really wish I had a larger pocket book. I think I have all the major problems that plagued me all figured out, just to part the car out in a couple weeks like you are doing. At times I think i should spend $300 dollars I don't have and get a couple GOOD timed laps at MAM and see what this car can actually do. I really believe its capable of a 1:40-1:41 possibly faster with a top level driver. Hell I was stuck in 4th playing with lines running consistent 1:56 times completely babing it on the straight. (like 100mph vs 140-150 mph).

If you ever attend a track day at MAM with a future vehicle let me know. I am not going to quite completely just found out quickly I can't afford to compete at the top level.

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If you want cheap track time at MAM yet this year, they have an event called Boo Bash on Oct. 27th. I don't know the price this year, but it's typically very inexpensive (~$125). However, I don't know if they're running their timing equipment or not. They didn't last week and I had to time Rich with a stopwatch.

p.s. As I told Rich, if you absolutely must part it out, I'm interested in some of the parts as well.....uh, I feel like a vulture.

Thanks for the TIP on Boo Bash!

If everything goes good at the AutoX this weekend. I might have to go down. I was planning on a halloween party at my house that night but I can always cancel that for a little racing.

I wonder if the wife will let me spend a little more on racing this fall? I told her I was done this year but if its one day... maybe

RusherRacing said:

Thanks for the TIP on Boo Bash!

If everything goes good at the AutoX this weekend. I might have to go down. I was planning on a halloween party at my house that night but I can always cancel that for a little racing. I wonder if the wife will let me spend a little more on racing this fall? I told her I was done this year but if its one day... maybe

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If nobody buys my car at Road America or offers to buy the motor (so I can part it out), I think I'll run it too.

SOP -

When are you arriving at RA for the FBody event? Friday night or Sat am? I'll be coming in Sat am - we should try to pit together to share war stories.

Scott
Archer Talon

schemauer said:

SOP - When are you arriving at RA for the FBody event? Friday night or Sat am? I'll be coming in Sat am - we should try to pit together to share war stories. Scott Archer Talon

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We plan to arrive Friday afternoon (late) so we can unload the car off the trailer. I dunno how much space we can save around us. Underradar (Blackcar) will be pitting next to us, and he's getting there Saturday morning. It fills up fast in the morning, so try to get there early, and maybe we can establish a DSM paddock. We need those orange pylons that people use to stake their territories.

If all the 3000GTs show up that promised, we may have a big Mitsu paddock.

Maybe we'll move down the paddock a bit, so people won't move in next to us so fast, and we can save space for you. Look for the blue Eclipse, Number 63.

By the bye, DSM visitors are welcome to park next to us and hang out. We may put you to work. My car always needs attention.

How does it make any sense to dial in a car to where it's working, only to dump it for a huge loss, and start the whole process over again?

I do believe that is just another wording of the "definition of insanity".

underradar92 said:

How does it make any sense to dial in a car to where it's working, only to dump it for a huge loss, and start the whole process over again?

I do believe that is just another wording of the "definition of insanity".

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You got me there.

However, I have no plans to build another DSM or any other car for that matter. It takes two years to sort one out, and I don't want to do that again. Wifey would kill me anyway.