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Bargain Basement Big Brakes

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I had several motivating factors to develop this:
1. Similar mods were reportedly being done with limited success and practicality, but key info was withheld, most likely with hope of making a bundle selling brackets. My plan was to do it better and make the info available to everyone.
2. This kind of tinkering is right up my alley. Not that I’m cheap, um, well, not just because I’m cheap, but most DSM’ers are into the whole silk purse from sow’s ears game.
3. The VR4 brake package is known to be a great performer. A similar setup on a lighter car should be outstanding.
4. Face it. We all have a little rotor-size envy. No, don’t give me that “It’s the thickness, not the size” crap.
 
Face it. We all have a little rotor-size envy. No, don't give me that "It's the thickness, not the size" crap.

HAHA, that is funny!

Todd, I dont know if you understand what I was saying... I ment that it may be easier for poeple to go with your kits... Therefore trying to support TCE's products vs. Homemade

Todd, I have a question: What is the truth between the offset of a 13" Cobra Rotor and the Baer Track kit? Is it the same?

If so one could buy Cobra rotors for $120 on ebay, a set of cobra PBR calipers (loaded) on ebay brand new for about $220. and some lines for 100. The 2G banjo bolt fits in the PBR calipers and works well, one of my new ones was messed up and I reused the 2G one. Now I have the brackets already remade.
 
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No, don't give me that "It's the thickness, not the size" crap.

I agree, because it's apples and oranges. What extra thickness gives you is a larger heat-sink; what extra diameter gives you is more torque for the same clamping force. Decide which you need to upgrade by asking yourself what you need more of.

- Jtoby

ps. what's the braking analogue of stamina? ... air ducts?

pps. my nickname of "pencil stub" derives from the large number of standardized tests that I've taken; I just want that on record
 
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Todd, I dont know if you understand what I was saying... I ment that it may be easier for poeple to go with your kits... Therefore trying to support TCE's products vs. Homemade

Understood, and for the most part I think it's a more than fair statement. Especially if one factors in the smaller Wilwood box kit. I think the planned $400+ is rapidly going to turn into more like $650 but I'll wait and see too...And I have nothing against home brews either. If you an do the work yourself you can save money too.


Todd, I have a question: What is the truth between the offset of a 13" Cobra Rotor and the Baer Track kit? Is it the same?

I'd have to have the rotor of for you to check it. The only TRUTH that I can say for certain is that the Corner Carver hat kit I sold dozens of and available with or without rotors, was a direct replacement for the Mustang part. All of them. The Baer kits for the most part run this or the Vette rotor for years as it's cheap and easy. The Mustang runs about 1 11/16" tall and the Vette is about 2 3/16" tall.


If so one could buy Cobra rotors for $120 on ebay, a set of cobra PBR calipers (loaded) on ebay brand new for about $220. and some lines for 100. The 2G banjo bolt fits in the PBR calipers and works well, one of my new ones was messed up and I reused the 2G one. Now I have the brackets already remade.

Perhaps. You'd need the centering ring as the Mits has a much smaller bore than the Mustang and perhaps redrilled if the bc is not the same- that's covered in the use of the elongated holes in the hat kit.

Also keep in mind that both/all the kits I'm offering are two piece rotors. Thus the base price alone goes up a couple hundred over one piece parts. Advantages? Sure but it bottom dollar is the target do they really matter?
 
2gAWDTalon:

The BAER track system uses a C4 vette rotor (i am almost positive), which has a bigger offset than the cobra rotor. That setup will work if your rims have enough space between the caliper.

I have played around with the following rotors so far in my project:

Cobra
C5 vette
C4 vette
S8 Audi (345mm!!)
TT
A4

It's hard to find all the specs on rotors so I end up buying them. The biggest issue I have is the bore dia.
 
2gAWDTalon:

The BAER track system uses a C4 vette rotor (i am almost positive), which has a bigger offset than the cobra rotor. That setup will work if your rims have enough space between the caliper.

I have played around with the following rotors so far in my project:

Cobra
C5 vette
C4 vette
S8 Audi (345mm!!)
TT
A4

It's hard to find all the specs on rotors so I end up buying them. The biggest issue I have is the bore dia.
How did you make out with the S8 rotors? I have been contemplating them lately.
 
Todd -

(Please forgive the long introduction, but it will let you check my math.)

2G big brakes have twin 1 11/16" pistons in the front (total area: 4.47 sq-in) and a single 1 3/8" piston in the rear (area: 1.48 sq-in). So the ratio of areas and, therefore, the ratio of clamping forces (below the prop valve's split-point) is 3.02 : 1. The effective front disk diameter is 9" and the rear is 8.7" for a lever-arm ratio of 1.03 : 1. The product of these two ratios is 3.12 : 1, which is a 76%/24% braking-torque split.

Assume that I wanted to switch this to a 67/33 split. Assume, also, that I wanted to keep my parking brake so I'm "stuck" with 13" rotors. Is there a FSL (front) and DL (rear) pair that would have close to twice the piston area in the front than the rear?

- Jtoby
 
Your numbers look about right. You could decrease the front area and or increase the rear to get what you want this way.

In the case of my kits the only reason you're stuck with the 13" is the fit of the caliper. Actually it can be done I think now on a 12.2" rotor as well with a bit more rear piston area too. That might be your solution.
 
2g 3000GT VR-4 rotors are a direct fit but they place the calipers so far out that you need spacers to fit your wheels over them. The Audi rotors mitigate this clearance issue but they are not a direct fit--you need to reduce the hub size to make them fit.

The dimensions of the brackets in the first couple pages of this thread are as clear as I can make them.

How about when you use Evo 8 wheels? The space behind the spokes for calipers is ridiculous.
 
Todd -

You now have 12.2" rear rotors for a working parking brake?

- Jtoby
 
Todd -

You now have 12.2" rear rotors for a working parking brake?

- Jtoby


The very first or early rear kits were DLS calipers (opposed two pot) but I pulled it off the market in favor of the BDL 4 pot used on the Wilwood Subaru kits. This allowed the rear kit to run both a four pot with larger pad as well as a vented rotor. The 12.2 is a solid rotor.

I've still got parts to build it and it can be done with both the 1.75 bore used back then or a smaller 1.375 bore part. If you want more rear brake the 1.75 might be just the ticket for you. With the solid rear rotor the weight is down a bit too. I think I have a set of those rotors collecting dust now too...if you want to use them up I'll do the whole thing this way to you for $600 to your door. (the larger 13" DL kit is $929)

It has smaller pads than the DL caliper so you'll go through them quicker but there are many compounds to pick from and cheaply.
 

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HAHA, that is funny!

Todd, I dont know if you understand what I was saying... I ment that it may be easier for poeple to go with your kits... Therefore trying to support TCE's products vs. Homemade

Todd, I have a question: What is the truth between the offset of a 13" Cobra Rotor and the Baer Track kit? Is it the same?

If so one could buy Cobra rotors for $120 on ebay, a set of cobra PBR calipers (loaded) on ebay brand new for about $220. and some lines for 100. The 2G banjo bolt fits in the PBR calipers and works well, one of my new ones was messed up and I reused the 2G one. Now I have the brackets already remade.

:D Can I tell her I am big like pepsi can?....ROFL
 
So to clarify: the only rotors that fit without grinding the hub are the 3kGT, Cobra and vette rotors?

If the hub is ground down, how do the factory rotors fit? I ask because I would need to switch back to my stock swirlies for winter tires meaning I'd also have to put 2 pot brakes/rotors back on.


EDIT: Just measured my evo wheels. They have 2" of clearance from the spokes to the hub surface. With this not including the rotor's offset I would think they should easily clear TT rotors and calipers.
 
So to clarify: the only rotors that fit without grinding the hub are the TT, Cobra and vette rotors?

If the hub is ground down, how do the factory rotors fit? I ask because I would need to switch back to my stock swirlies for winter tires meaning I'd also have to put 2 pot brakes/rotors back on.


EDIT: Just measured my evo wheels. They have 2" of clearance from the spokes to the hub surface. With this not including the rotor's offset I would think they should easily clear TT rotors and calipers.
I can answer a couple of your questions.

I don't see any reason you can't put stock rotors on after you have ground the hub. The lug holes and center bore will still ensure proper alignment.

You need more than 2" between the rotor surface and the hub spokes to fit the Sumitomo calipers, just over 2.25".
 
You need more than 2" between the rotor surface and the hub spokes to fit the Sumitomo calipers, just over 2.25".

No... I'm talking 2" between the HUB surface of the wheel and spokes, not rotor. You would have to add the offset of the rotor to the 2" to get the total space. :thumb:

If what we are after is 4 piston big brakes, why restrict our choices? I saw these remanufactured Ford F250 monsters on eBay. Anyone know the piston/pad size on these? There was also a set of 4 piston Jaguar XJS calipers for $55 each that looked to be very low profile.

I'm just saying, if we're making brackets, lets open up our options and see what's out there. These look like they'd allow for more cooling than the 3kGT calipers with that great big hole in the middle.

Edit: There is also a Volvo 240/260 for $34 each. I can't post a picture because the seller won't let me DL it :(

I would be concerned about availability of performance brake pads for specific applications though.
 

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I can't post a picture because the seller won't let me DL it :(
You mean these? I don't like the beeder valve position.
You must be logged in to view this image or video.


I suppose the whole idea of using 3000gt brakes got started from the incorrect notion that since they fit another Mitsubishi product, they might bolt on with a minium of fuss. They do have the advantage of being light-weight aluminum.

It's a good point though. There are many other vehicles that came equipped with OEM 4-piston calipers, and some might be an easier fit.
 
Or here is the Jaguar caliper.

The only other problem I can think of with switching manufacturers is the need for custom brake lines. From the prices mentioned in this thread, that ups the cost quite a bit.

The lightweight aluminum is definitely a nice touch with the 3kGTs.

This thread could use a parts store guy who knows brake pads and 4 pot calipers :p
 

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The S8 rotors are just plain huge and heavy. I am pretty sure I can fit them behind my Subzero's but I wanted to use the 17" Talon rim also. Is there anything specific you would like to know?

The Audi, Cobra and Vette are not the only options, they just happen to be dimensionally close and cheap. Personally the most important aspect is the center bore, that is what will keep the rotor from vibrating the crap out of the car. The Vette rotor has a bigger CB so I made a spacer to get it spot on. I sold the Cobra rotor and I never took down the dimensions (I know stupid). I am pretty sure I dismissed it because the lug pattern was off.

Oh, the TT rotor will NOT work, the dsm hub is too big. It could be the specific model I picked up though. It seems the A4 and up will clear no problem.

There are some big rotors out now. I think the Toureg has 380+mm rotors. The newer cars seem to have small offset rotors but large offset rims. I have been looking back a few years which is how I stumbled upon the C4 rotor.
 
I'd pass on the truck parts. 2" pistons are the norm I believe.

The Jag one looks to be a Girling. Bet the mount is very close to 3.5".

Nobody brought up the Nissan part yet? All the rage on other conversions I've read.
 
OMEGA said:
Oh, the TT rotor will NOT work, the dsm hub is too big.
Sorry, meant to say 3kGT, I was fuzzy last night. I corrected the post.

Nobody brought up the Nissan part yet? All the rage on other conversions I've read.
Exactly the problem. Because of that 300zx 4 pots are much more expensive than 3kGTs are. All those drifter guys and their Silvia conversions wanting to stop :rolleyes: ;)
 
It's ok... just wish I knew the hub was wrong before I ordered on. doh!

Does anyone have specs on the AEM rotors? I know the GSX version is 12.5" in dia, but I can't find any info on the offset and the thickness.
 
are there any rotrs thatdo not require wheel spacers or modifying the hub
 
are there any rotrs thatdo not require wheel spacers or modifying the hub
Short answer: No.

Longer answer: not thay I have been able to find. It's hard to get specs on rotors. Brembo used to have a rotor search feature that you could enter some or all dimensions and it would return a list of matches. Neat, but I never found any matches with it. DBA has a pretty good pdf catalog that includes dimensions. I believe that's how I found that audi rotors were a close match.

Until someone discovers a better fitting rotor, unless you have wheels that are designed to fit over fixed calipers, such as 3000GT or EVO, and you are not willing to invest in custom rotors, you have to offset the rotor in or the wheel out.
 
How does Baer do it then?
Or the people who use the 13" cobra setup?
Do they just work cause the PBR caliper is lower profile?

Also, I'm guessing Evo rotors with Evo calipers and Evo wheels will fit too, ie the wheel design matters too. ([edit] oops, you already mentioned the evo wheels :) )
 
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