1st logged run with FP Green need advice please!!

Generation X · Dec 27, 2006

I just installed an internally gated FP green awhile back and I'm just now gettting around to start tuning on it.

I was running an FP Big28 before, but I was wanting something with more topend power.

I'm also using Palm n Stein for my logging device. My mods are in my profile, and this run was without nitrous. I'm also running about 43.5 psi of base fuel pressure with the vacuume line detatched.

I have my high settings on -29 all the way across the board on the safc for now as a base line setting, and I was running about 20 psi with slight creep to 21.5 psi.

I think I'm getting very low air flow #'s from the amount of boost I'm running. I figured out I'm only flowing about 35lbs of air flow.

I thought I should be seeing close to 40lbs of air flow with the FP Green, but it may be my crappy Palm n Stein logger being scewed up, and my elevation of around 2500ft above sea-level being the culprit.

I do think I'm running rich in some areas, so if any of you knowledgable tuners out there can give me any input to where I need to start adding or subtracting fuel, please let me know. Thanks for any help!!!

Here is my logged 3rd gear run:

Rpms: 2500 O2: 0.45 Timing: 28 Air Flow: 4.03
Rpms: 2596 O2: 0.65 Timing: 13 Air Flow: 4.57
Rpms: 2712 O2: 0.21 Timing: 28 Air Flow: 4.99
Rpms: 2864 O2: 0.17 Timing: 27 Air Flow: 5.60
Rpms: 3028 O2: 0.89 Timing: 26 Air Flow: 6.26
Rpms: 3192 O2: 0.91 Timing: 25 Air Flow: 7.00
Rpms: 3368 O2: 0.89 Timing: 23 Air Flow: 7.89
Rpms: 3564 O2: 0.87 Timing: 21 Air Flow: 9.28
Rpms: 3772 O2: 0.91 Timing: 19 Air Flow: 11.08
Rpms: 4024 O2: 0.93 Timing: 13 Air Flow: 13.32
Rpms: 4276 O2: 0.95 Timing: 10 Air Flow: 15.12
Rpms: 4552 O2: 0.97 Timing: 10 Air Flow: 17.03
Rpms: 4860 O2: 1.00 Timing: 6 Air Flow: 19.58
Rpms: 5124 O2: 1.00 Timing: 7 Air Flow: 21.93
Rpms: 5384 O2: 1.00 Timing: 9 Air Flow: 22.77
Rpms: 5662 O2: 1.00 Timing: 10 Air Flow: 23.97
Rpms: 5916 O2: 1.00 Timing: 12 Air Flow: 24.60
Rpms: 6180 O2: 0.97 Timing: 13 Air Flow: 24.68
Rpms: 6400 O2: 0.97 Timing: 14 Air Flow: 24.59
Rpms: 6608 O2: 0.97 Timing: 15 Air Flow: 24.73
Rpms: 6808 O2: 0.97 Timing: 15 Air Flow: 24.78
Rpms: 6968 O2: 0.97 Timing: 16 Air Flow: 24.77
Rpms: 7108 O2: 0.97 Timing: 17 Air Flow: 24.84

CanadianTSi · Dec 27, 2006

Looks like boost comes on kinda late, did you floor it at 2500?

Also looks fairly rich from 4k on up, I would try going to -32.

Also a few more psi should really wake the turbo up.

Generation X · Dec 27, 2006

CanadianTSi said:
Looks like boost comes on kinda late, did you floor it at 2500?

Also looks fairly rich from 4k on up, I would try going to -32.

Also a few more psi should really wake the turbo up.

Well... I tried, or atleast I thought I floored it pretty good at 2500 rpm, but maybe I didn't though.

I'm going to try another run tomorrow when I get time, and I'm going to leave the 2500 rpm through 4000 rpm at -29, and then try like you said and set it to -32 on up to 7000 rpm and see how things look then, and maybe add a couple more psi.

Also... if I had a boost leak somewhere wouldn't it make my air flow numbers more inflated or would it make them lower?

Thanks again for your input bro. :thumb:

andymoraitis · Dec 27, 2006

A boost leak on a 2G MAF will inflate your airflow numbers since all leaks would happen after it meters the incoming air. Those numbers do seem somewhat weak.

Are you tuning with a wideband to monitor A/F or are you just going as far as you can and looking for knock?

Zex4g63 · Dec 27, 2006

I have a similar setup, -32 is a better area for the safc. As was pointed out boost is late. Might be do to the tension on the actuator. I finally went to an external because in order for me to spool fast I had to tighten the actuator which would cause the turbo to spike bad.

Generation X · Dec 27, 2006

andymoraitis said:
A boost leak on a 2G MAF will inflate your airflow numbers since all leaks would happen after it meters the incoming air. Those numbers do seem somewhat weak.

Are you tuning with a wideband to monitor A/F or are you just going as far as you can and looking for knock?

No... I'm not tuning with a wideband. I'd like to have one though.

I'm just using the Tunerstein (Palm n Stein) logger for my tuning thus far. The car actually feels very strong at this boost level compared to my old FP Big28, although I need to tune it more, but my air flow #'s have me at a loss right now. It seems as though I'm missing about 5lbs of air flow some how, unless my logger is screwed up and giving me false air flow #'s.

Zex4g63 · Dec 27, 2006

Mine at that boost level was right in that range. The next 5-6psi you add will wake it up. Your timing curve looks nearly identical to mine as well when I was just using a SAFC.

Generation X · Dec 27, 2006

Zex4g63 said:
I have a similar setup, -32 is a better area for the safc. As was pointed out boost is late. Might be do to the tension on the actuator. I finally went to an external because in order for me to spool fast I had to tighten the actuator which would cause the turbo to spike bad.

That's another issue I've been wondering about.

I have my adjustable wastegate actuator tightened to where theres only about 3 to 4 threads showing on it now, and I have my Hallman ES MBC cranked down to where it's only showing about 4 threads on it as well, and I'm still only seeing about 20 to 22 psi of boost.

I'm not getting any spike as of yet. I'm just getting a little bit of creep which I was expecting with the internal gate, but I was thinking I should be seeing more boost than I'am.

I'm wondering if I need to quit being a wuss and tighten the wastegate arm on it all the way down and go from there with raising boost pressure with my MBC?

Generation X · Dec 27, 2006

Zex4g63 said:
Mine at that boost level was right in that range. The next 5-6psi you add will wake it up. Your timing curve looks nearly identical to mine as well when I was just using a SAFC.

What amount of boost are you running on pump gas?

That's awesome you have 160,000 miles on your car and you trapped at 123 in the 1/4.

Are you still running on the same factory head gasket and studs?

Zex4g63 · Dec 27, 2006

Generation X said:
What amount of boost are you running on pump gas?

That's awesome you have 160,000 miles on your car and you trapped at 123 in the 1/4.

Are you still running on the same factory head gasket and studs?

The head has been off, arp's and better hg. I pulled the head at around 145,000 because it was puffing some blue smoke on startup. Bottom end is as it left the factory minus the balance shafts. I currently run 26-27psi on 93 octane. I have a chip from DSMchips That I am very happy with.

Generation X · Dec 27, 2006

Just curious as to what do any of you guys have your NE points set at on the AFC if your still running one?

Or what should I have mine set at being as I'm running a 50 trim?

Generation X · Dec 28, 2006

Ok... I just got done with another run today. I increased my boost to 22psi and I had my high settings on my S-AFC at -29 from 1000 rpm to 4000 rpm, and from 5000 rpm to 7000rpm I had them set at -32 on the S-AFC. The outside temperature was 52 degrees, and I'm at 2500ft above sea-level.

I'm still getting very low air-flow #'s IMO, but I'm really starting to think my logger is just screwed or something. I don't know though damn it.

To me... my car feels just as fast now without nitrous, as it did with my FP Big28, cams and a 75 shot at 21psi.

I think I might need to add a percent or two in the 5000 rpm to 7000 rpm range. What do you guys think?

Thanks again for any input, and or help.

Heres the logged run:

Rpms: 2528 O2: 0.79 Timing: 14 Air-Flow: 4.12
Rpms: 2684 O2: 0.03 Timing: 28 Air-Flow: 4.60
Rpms: 2852 O2: 0.03 Timing: 27 Air-Flow: 5.34
Rpms: 3040 O2: 0.05 Timing: 27 Air-Flow: 6.10
Rpms: 3240 O2: 0.47 Timing: 25 Air-Flow: 6.96
Rpms: 3452 O2: 0.19 Timing: 23 Air-Flow: 7.93
Rpms: 3660 O2: 0.28 Timing: 22 Air-Flow: 9.32
Rpms: 3868 O2: 0.87 Timing: 19 Air-Flow: 11.27
Rpms: 4128 O2: 0.91 Timing: 13 Air-Flow: 13.41
Rpms: 4412 O2: 0.93 Timing: 12 Air-Flow: 14.96
Rpms: 4668 O2: 0.95 Timing: 9 Air-Flow: 16.47
Rpms: 4972 O2: 0.95 Timing: 8 Air-Flow: 18.27
Rpms: 5236 O2: 0.95 Timing: 6 Air-Flow: 20.03
Rpms: 5508 O2: 0.95 Timing: 9 Air-Flow: 21.42
Rpms: 5788 O2: 0.95 Timing: 10 Air-Flow: 22.15
Rpms: 6036 O2: 0.95 Timing: 11 Air-Flow: 22.59
Rpms: 6272 O2: 0.95 Timing: 12 Air-Flow: 22.43
Rpms: 6496 O2: 0.95 Timing: 11 Air-Flow: 22.62
Rpms: 6676 O2: 0.95 Timing: 10 Air-Flow: 22.73
Rpms: 6868 O2: 0.95 Timing: 11 Air-Flow: 22.91
Rpms: 7032 O2: 0.95 Timing: 12 Air-Flow: 22.78
Rpms: 7148 O2: 0.95 Timing: 12 Air-Flow: 22.53

andymoraitis · Dec 28, 2006

While the airflow is still low, I'm now concerned about your timing. There's a bit of knock from 6200-6800 but what has me a bit worried is how low it is. Unless you have forged internals I wouldn't allow timing to go below 14 degrees on cast parts since the heat can cause damage.

Your boost also comes on very late for that turbo. Just for kicks, have you tested for any pre-turbo leaks at the manifold or collector? The O2 readings are still in that rich range and the spool lateness has me thinking that's something's not right. As a matter of fact I'd recommend a complete boost leak test and that you also slowly suck in a can of Seafoam through the BOV line with the motor running to see if you can pinpoint any pre-turbo exhaust leaks.

If you've never used Seafoam before, I'd recommend this thread:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222686&highlight=seafoam

Please keep us posted as to your results,

Andy

talontsi18 · Dec 28, 2006

I'm learning to tune as well, but I have a question shouldn't your peak timing be at redline? You have 28 at 2684 but then you dip down to 6 at 5236 and then ending at 12 at redline. I thought timing was sapposed to be linear with rpm meaning it should be peaking around reline. Can someone explain this?

andymoraitis · Dec 28, 2006

When you go WOT and the ECU transitions into open loop, it senses more airflow and depending how much it sees, it transfers to a higher load map which drops the timing down and then slowly ramps it up to peak timing in the absence of knock.

You're correct though about your assumption of how a map should look though. A stock 2G timing map will peak at around 16 degrees of timing provided airflow exceeds 2.1 g/rev. The AFC messes with this to some degree since it subtracts airflow which is the reason that I don't care for it as a sole tuning device when correcting for larger injectors.

What concerns me about those logs is how late it dips. It's almost as if it's getting full spool and sensing much higher load much later than it should.

Light bulb! I had a close friend with low airflow issues and it turned out that his TPS was set incorrectly. After getting it to spec he suddenly picked up 5 lbs/min. Perhaps this is the problem here and it might explain a few things. There's a section at the the end of this TB swap article that should help:

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/2gtbswap.htm

talontsi18 · Dec 28, 2006

Thanks andy you rock! Does the 1g have the same transition from the lower to high map? When exactally is the ecu sapposed to switch maps?

olmytsi · Dec 28, 2006

You should have 20 psi right around 4000. I have a turbonetics 50 trim (pretty much same as fp green) and i get 20 psi at 3900 with a motor that has low compression and burns oil.

35 lbs/min is not low if you have a stock head and cams. I was flowing 36lbs/min a few months ago. Now that i added hks 272s, i'm flowing 40lbs/min.

I'm running 20-21 psi.

The 2g ECU puts you on the highest airflow/lower timing map (16 degrees peak) if you are flowing over 2.1 grams/rev.

I am curently flowing 2.9 grams/rev at 20-21 psi.

andymoraitis · Dec 28, 2006

talontsi18 said:
Thanks andy you rock! Does the 1g have the same transition from the lower to high map? When exactally is the ecu sapposed to switch maps?

Yes it does, but the 1G runs a higher timing map than the 2G due to lower compression and transitions to the high load map above 2.06 g/rev instead of 2.1. It also finishes up around 23 degrees of timing or thereabouts.

Generation X · Dec 28, 2006

andymoraitis said:
While the airflow is still low, I'm now concerned about your timing. There's a bit of knock from 6200-6800 but what has me a bit worried is how low it is. Unless you have forged internals I wouldn't allow timing to go below 14 degrees on cast parts since the heat can cause damage.

Your boost also comes on very late for that turbo. Just for kicks, have you tested for any pre-turbo leaks at the manifold or collector? The O2 readings are still in that rich range and the spool lateness has me thinking that's something's not right. As a matter of fact I'd recommend a complete boost leak test and that you also slowly suck in a can of Seafoam through the BOV line with the motor running to see if you can pinpoint any pre-turbo exhaust leaks.

If you've never used Seafoam before, I'd recommend this thread:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222686&highlight=seafoam

Please keep us posted as to your results,

Andy

No... I've not tried any boost leaks yet Andy. I need to make a tester that will fit my 3" inlet. I've never tried any seafoam either but I've heard it's great stuff, and probably wouldn't hurt to use it on my car since it has 85,000 miles on it now.

Thanks for the RRE link as well. I will check to see if my TPS is within spec, but it seems to be reading around 99% at WOT most of the time.

I was thinking that the late respnse was due to my cams, but I guess I was wrong. :confused:

Anyways... I have had a few issues that may, or may not be the culprit of some of my problems. One of the problems is that my K&N FIPK had to literally be crammed into place to just make it work with my set up. I had to cram it as far as I could on the MAS, and the MAS had to be crammed as far as I could get it on the FP 4" intake pipe.

Here is a few pictures that I took, so maybe you, or someone else can see for yourself if this might me causing my MAS to be causing eratic readings on my logger. If so, I may have to find a more slimmer cone shaped filter for better fitment if you think this might be causing me some problems with my tuning.

Here's one of the pictures:

You can really see how crammed tight the filter, MAS, and FP 4" intake pipe really is, and I'm not to sure if this is good or not, because I never had any problems with my stock 2g 2 1/4 RRE turbo inlet pipe that I had on my FP Big28.

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Here's another one just for referrence.

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Here you can tell how really close the filter is to my RRE upper IC pipe which it basically touches it.

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And here's one with the intake connected to the turbo in which it looks fine to me.

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If you could please give me your opinion on this I would greatly be appreciated!!

Now... today just for the hell of it I cranked my actuator arm all the way to the max, and now I'm running 23psi which I know I need to decrease the tension now obviously, but I only have about 5 or 6 turns left on my Hallman MBC that I could turn to make the boost go higher.

I took some pictures of the wsstgate actuator along with the boost controller.

This is the actuator picture obviously.

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And here is my Hallman ES MBC. It's a little blurry, but theres about 5 or 6 threads still showing on it that I can still tighten up if needed.

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To me it would seem that I should be making way more boost than 23psi, or am I wrong on this?

What is the max boost that you can run on a 50 trim turbo?

Sorry for the long post, but I really appreciate your info, and or any advice alot!! :thumb:

andymoraitis · Dec 28, 2006

In looking at your pics, I don't see any problem with the intake connections. f you don't drive on dirt roads you could always pull the filter and run without it for a couple of pulls to see if anything's different. Your TPS readings are also fine and I was really hoping that was the problem (dangit).

What we seem to be up against is your low airflow as the first item and the lateness of spool as the second. I still think the Seafoam treatment is a good idea to see if you have any leaks pre-turbo since that would certainly create a spool issue. I wouldn't suspect the cams as a culprit unless the cam timing was off a significant amount. HKS are considered to be the best for a straight up install and if your timing marks line up on the cam gears and the crank with cylinder 1 at TDC, I'd say you're good to go.

I don't use an MBC at all (I have a shimmed external Tial 38mm) but I remember that they do vary when it comes to how much adjustment it takes to get the boost levels you want. I've had two Buschur MBC's and as I went to a larger turbo it took more turns to get the boost to rise as opposed to the adjustment needed for a 16G. Speaking of MBC's is your boost source teed off of the BOV line? If so please add a boost nipple to the compressor housing or an intercooler pipe as close as possible to the MBC so that it will react more quickly. I'd also like some concrete numbers on where this turbo is fully spooled as opposed to just looking at the logs and guessing that it's around 5000 or so.

Finally, I run my 50 trim between 26-27 psi on pump gas and have seen peak airflow of 51.2 lbs/min on pump gas and low timing at around 1000' ASL. So your Green (what a great turbo) is more than capable of running that boost level but since you only tune with an AFC, you'll be limited by how lean you can tune without running into knock from the airflow subtraction needed to run larger injectors. That's always going to be your tail chase but you and I will work on that once we get past the airflow issues. I wish you had an EPROM ECU/Keydiver chip combo so that we could see unadulterated airflow numbers from the MAF and take it from there.

In reviewing the logs I see the following items as being trouble spots:

1. Late spool
2. O2 reads rich even with -32% correction
3. Knock
4. Low airflow

My suggestions for now are:

1. Try a friend's logger if you have access to one to see if the airflow numbers are repeatable.
2. Seafoam the motor and look for any pre-turbo exhaust leaks. Make sure you pull the heat shield so you can pinpoint any smoke to a location.
3. See if a friend will swap MAF's with you for a test run to rule that out.
4. Boost leak test that bad boy.
5. Check cam timing with cylinder one at TDC.

I'm still leaning heavily towards pre-turbo exhaust leaks at this point but letting us know what develops will keep us moving forward.

Hang in there,

A.

Zex4g63 · Dec 29, 2006

Does the bov need tightened down a little by chance?

olmytsi · Dec 29, 2006

Also, make sure your wastegate flapper is closed all the way. I had late spool issues and turns out my flapper wasn't shut all the way.

Generation X · Dec 29, 2006

andymoraitis said:
In looking at your pics, I don't see any problem with the intake connections. f you don't drive on dirt roads you could always pull the filter and run without it for a couple of pulls to see if anything's different. Your TPS readings are also fine and I was really hoping that was the problem (dangit).

What we seem to be up against is your low airflow as the first item and the lateness of spool as the second. I still think the Seafoam treatment is a good idea to see if you have any leaks pre-turbo since that would certainly create a spool issue. I wouldn't suspect the cams as a culprit unless the cam timing was off a significant amount. HKS are considered to be the best for a straight up install and if your timing marks line up on the cam gears and the crank with cylinder 1 at TDC, I'd say you're good to go.

I don't use an MBC at all (I have a shimmed external Tial 38mm) but I remember that they do vary when it comes to how much adjustment it takes to get the boost levels you want. I've had two Buschur MBC's and as I went to a larger turbo it took more turns to get the boost to rise as opposed to the adjustment needed for a 16G. Speaking of MBC's is your boost source teed off of the BOV line? If so please add a boost nipple to the compressor housing or an intercooler pipe as close as possible to the MBC so that it will react more quickly. I'd also like some concrete numbers on where this turbo is fully spooled as opposed to just looking at the logs and guessing that it's around 5000 or so.

Finally, I run my 50 trim between 26-27 psi on pump gas and have seen peak airflow of 51.2 lbs/min on pump gas and low timing at around 1000' ASL. So your Green (what a great turbo) is more than capable of running that boost level but since you only tune with an AFC, you'll be limited by how lean you can tune without running into knock from the airflow subtraction needed to run larger injectors. That's always going to be your tail chase but you and I will work on that once we get past the airflow issues. I wish you had an EPROM ECU/Keydiver chip combo so that we could see unadulterated airflow numbers from the MAF and take it from there.

In reviewing the logs I see the following items as being trouble spots:

1. Late spool
2. O2 reads rich even with -32% correction
3. Knock
4. Low airflow

My suggestions for now are:

1. Try a friend's logger if you have access to one to see if the airflow numbers are repeatable.
2. Seafoam the motor and look for any pre-turbo exhaust leaks. Make sure you pull the heat shield so you can pinpoint any smoke to a location.
3. See if a friend will swap MAF's with you for a test run to rule that out.
4. Boost leak test that bad boy.
5. Check cam timing with cylinder one at TDC.

I'm still leaning heavily towards pre-turbo exhaust leaks at this point but letting us know what develops will keep us moving forward.

Hang in there,

A.

Thanks man I will check on all of that.

As of right now I went out and purchased some Sea Foam, and I bought the stuff to make a boost leak tester as well.

Zex4g63 said:
Does the bov need tightened down a little by chance?

Well... I did try that today, but I tightened it so much that I got real bad flutter, but since you mentioned the bov I'm thinking it might be my RRE upper IC pipe flange leaking.

The reason I say that is because I use to run a 1g bov, and then I went on to a Greddy Type-S, but I never purchased the upper IC pipe from RRE that has the exact flange for the Greddy Type-S.

Instead.. I matched the flange from the Greddy bov and I marked holes, and drilled them trying to save a buck, but I may have ended up causing more of a problem.

Here's a picture of what I'm talking about, but just please excuse the jimmy rigging from my Zex nitrous box because I haven't found a spot to put it yet, since I've switched turbos.

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olmytsi said:
Also, make sure your wastegate flapper is closed all the way. I had late spool issues and turns out my flapper wasn't shut all the way.

How do I go about that bro?

I tried like hell to move the flapper when I had the actuator off and I couldn't budge it at all with my fingers, or maybe I wasn't doing something right. :confused:

andymoraitis · Dec 29, 2006

If the flapper isn't moving by hand I don't think it would be a big problem but you could tighten up a bit more and richen up to compensate for the increase in boost.

While you may have boost leaks and you should definitely test for them, if you did the airflow counts would be inflated since the leaks would happen after the MAS. If you do indeed have boost leaks I'd suspect that you have them in conjunction with pre-turbo exhaust leaks. A boost leak test and a can of Seafoam will tell you everything you need to know.

Generation X · Dec 29, 2006

andymoraitis said:
If the flapper isn't moving by hand I don't think it would be a big problem but you could tighten up a bit more and richen up to compensate for the increase in boost.

While you may have boost leaks and you should definitely test for them, if you did the airflow counts would be inflated since the leaks would happen after the MAS. If you do indeed have boost leaks I'd suspect that you have them in conjunction with pre-turbo exhaust leaks. A boost leak test and a can of Seafoam will tell you everything you need to know.

Hopefully all will go well then. I will keep my fingers crossed, and I will keep you updated as well.

Andy... I just uploaded a vid of my car at idle.

Do you think by just the way it's idleing that you can tell if the timing is out of whack?

Here's the vid.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iRRqNpb53oo"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iRRqNpb53oo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Also... which vacuume line is best to draw the Sea Foam through?

Thanks again for all your help bro. :thumb:

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1st logged run with FP Green need advice please!!

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