Well I have tried a few different things.....methanol, alchohol, xylene, smurf piss, and straight water.

I haven't tried putting straight race fuel in there. I am not so sure I like the idea of running highly flamable stuff through the cabin. I was uncomfortable just running xylene.

To me....I would prefer to just use the cooling and detonation prevention benefits of a 50/50 mix. There's really no reason to run race fuel if you get the same effect from pump gas with a mixture of you liking.

Jeff_Jeske said:

As for making more power with only the addition of water.....most people are not running at 100% efficiency....they have a heat soaking intercooler that is pulling timing and causing knock. Adding H2O can fix both of these problems. If you are running at 100% there's no way to get 110%. However.....Even if you have a great tune.....alot of fuel is used to cool the charge not to make power. When removing this fuel and replacing it with water you actually run leaner and this often makes more power.

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100% correct information.

Ive got a question for you all....Why not propane injection?? I've got a buddy with a 3000GT VR-4 running low 11's with twin 14b's and propane injection on pump gas @ like 20PSI. He seems to swear by it.....

psychlow said:

If someone could please explain to me how you can create power by ONLY adding water into the combustion mix, by all means, please explain.

Power is created by the expansion of an air/fuel mix that takes up little space to the byproducts of combustion that take up a lot of space. The more heat you add to air, the more space it takes up, which translates to more power.

Merely cooling combustion will create less power. That's physics. No way around it.

The only way I can see that adding water only would add power is when the liquid water converts to steam, which takes away heat but takes up more space and creating more pressure in itself - similar to the way a pressure cooker works.

Oh yeah - adding race fuel with no other changes will not affect performance appreciably if the engine operates correctly on regular gas. The only reason race fuel exists is to make the engine run timing, compression, boost, etc. that you couldn't run otherwise.

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Correct me if i'm wrong guys......


The point is to get rid of knock and keep your ECU from pulling timing (which will make you SLOWER). Just because you have hotter air that takes up more space doesnt mean it will get you more power. Hotter Air = hotter A/F charge, which is heated even more as it is compressed, which make the charge go BOOM before its supposed to. In case you didnt know, predetonation will not only make you slower bc yer ECU pulls timing, but it will also kill your engine. Water Injection is like haveing an extra super-duper intercooler, which can allow you to run MORE BOOST, safely, without having to pay $2.50 / gal for freakin race gas you retard.

trick engine said:

Has anyone tried injecting 116 race fuel instead of the denatured alky ?????

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I have actually considered this. Although I understand the concept of injecting methanol and it's been proven to work, I'm still not comfortable enough with the idea to actually do it. On the other hand however it is too expensive to drive around on c16, so how about buying a methanol injection kit such as the one from alky control and filling the reservior with c16. Then on the alchohol adjustment knob turn it up all the way and lean your injecors out under high boost. The tuning principal is basically the same as tuning for methanol, however I think people would be a lot more comfortable spraying c16 than water or windshield washer fluid and so on. Maybe its just me?

The whole point of chemical intercooling is to intercool.

Once you strart spraying fuel you aren't intercooling anymore.

Once you start looking at octane boosting instead of intercooling you might as well look at running something designed specifically for fuel.

Chemical intercooling is cheap. Cheaper than race gas 24/7, cheaper than nitrous, cheaper than propane. That is why people use it instead of the other options.

For what its worth.....with a 600cc injector, I drink two quarts of mixture every two days and thats just normal aggressive driving. If you were to switch over to race gas you are still gonna end up costing you a fortune.

adidalax said:

Correct me if i'm wrong guys......


The point is to get rid of knock and keep your ECU from pulling timing (which will make you SLOWER). Just because you have hotter air that takes up more space doesnt mean it will get you more power. Hotter Air = hotter A/F charge, which is heated even more as it is compressed, which make the charge go BOOM before its supposed to. In case you didnt know, predetonation will not only make you slower bc yer ECU pulls timing, but it will also kill your engine. Water Injection is like haveing an extra super-duper intercooler, which can allow you to run MORE BOOST, safely, without having to pay $2.50 / gal for freakin race gas you retard.

Click to expand...

I suggest that the next time you call someone a retard, you decide to read the rest of the conversation and the post you're quoting fully.

The argument was about a properly running engine that has zero knock. Stock cars should not knock. If they do, something is wrong. If Mitsubishi tuned our cars to knock regularly, the engines would probably last about 50K miles before they grenaded.

I know quite a bit about the benefits of water injection. It allows you to run more boost, a leaner A/F, and more timing on the same octane. My argument is that if you slap on water injection on a car that's running perfectly and change nothing (air/fuel, timing, boost, etc.), you'll get nothing but clean combustion chambers.

Either you or the ECU has to adjust the above-mentioned variables in order to see any other benefits.

Also, the term "predetonation" is used quite a bit, but is not technically correct unless you're talking about diesel engines. There are two undesirable conditions on gasoline engines regarding the air/fuel mix and the combustion process. They are preignition and detonation.

During normal combustion, the mixture burns evenly and smoothly and exerts most of it's pressure at 14* after TDC. Preignition is when the mixture burns before it should (usually before the spark plug fires), trying to force the piston back down while it's on it's upward travel. This usually snaps rod bolts, bends rods, and/or damages rod bearings.

Detonation always occurs after the spark plug has fired. It occurs when the pressure and heat of the normal combustion is sufficient to detonate the remaining air/fuel mixture. When a compound or mixture detonates, that means it explodes, and the expanding gasses create a pressure wave that reaches speeds greater than the speed of sound. This is like taking a hammer and slamming it on the top of your pistons.

propane is just another fuel. If you need more fuel, get bigger injectors and add some with your piggyback of choice.

Water injection is NOT about adding fuel. Its about cooling the intake charge and it does a damn good job of it. And has been since the mid 1930's.

As for feeling safer about injecting leaded high octane gas? How is that safer? Water doesn't do anything if it leaks but make things wet. can't say the same for gas or propane.

It works. Period. If you don't want to use it no prob. If you want to learn more about it, do some research.

PS, I just pulled my intake manifold to put in a phenolic spacer and had a look into my head, using a mirror and strong LED light. The ports and valves were like new. No crud, carbon or other nastiness, so yes, ontop of cooling the steam will clean your combustion chambers very nicely.

I have been looking into getting water injection for my car and i am curious as to what your guys opinions are on the brand coolingmist and thier water injection systems. Here is a link to thier site. www.coolingmist.com Do any of you guys use this brand?

Jeff_Jeske said:

The device fluctuates the power to the pump to provide only a portion of the max flow. This happens very quickly...(its just like a progressive nitrous controller). I go from 10 psi to 20 psi in less than a second. The reviews from others are just as shining as mine.

It all boost sensative so there isn't any harness hacking or mechanical switches to rig up. Install took me about an hour and I ran a water line from the rear to the motor under the carpet.

Click to expand...

Is there any sort of write-up/vfaq sort of material on your specific setup? I haven't heard of flucating devices used in conjunction with these sort of setups. Seems like an even MORE ideal setup. Thanks for the great info. Nice to see you're not just good with KL engines.

psychlow said:

I suggest that the next time you call someone a retard, you decide to read the rest of the conversation and the post you're quoting fully.

The argument was about a properly running engine that has zero knock. Stock cars should not knock. If they do, something is wrong. If Mitsubishi tuned our cars to knock regularly, the engines would probably last about 50K miles before they grenaded.

I know quite a bit about the benefits of water injection. It allows you to run more boost, a leaner A/F, and more timing on the same octane. My argument is that if you slap on water injection on a car that's running perfectly and change nothing (air/fuel, timing, boost, etc.), you'll get nothing but clean combustion chambers.

Either you or the ECU has to adjust the above-mentioned variables in order to see any other benefits.

Also, the term "predetonation" is used quite a bit, but is not technically correct unless you're talking about diesel engines. There are two undesirable conditions on gasoline engines regarding the air/fuel mix and the combustion process. They are preignition and detonation.

During normal combustion, the mixture burns evenly and smoothly and exerts most of it's pressure at 14* after TDC. Preignition is when the mixture burns before it should (usually before the spark plug fires), trying to force the piston back down while it's on it's upward travel. This usually snaps rod bolts, bends rods, and/or damages rod bearings.

Detonation always occurs after the spark plug has fired. It occurs when the pressure and heat of the normal combustion is sufficient to detonate the remaining air/fuel mixture. When a compound or mixture detonates, that means it explodes, and the expanding gasses create a pressure wave that reaches speeds greater than the speed of sound. This is like taking a hammer and slamming it on the top of your pistons.

Click to expand...

My apologies, man.....got a little drunk and cocky and for some reason read your thread and thought you had like....no idea what you were talking about My bad!!! Didnt mean to be an @$$hole

Actually all pumps will pulsate to keep the pressure within a certain spec (120-140psi). When I am at lower PSI or running a smaller nozzle I can hear my pump click on and off slowly. At WOT with a 625cc nozzle its running at full tilt.

I am actually about to start another project car. If any of you are interested in my kit shoot me an email. I can save you a few bucks and I have three different nozzle sizes as well.

To read more about it:
http://www.snowperformance.net/proddetail.asp?prod=Auto020

TSi_Eagle said:

Nice to see you're not just good with KL engines.

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Thanks for the props!!!

Feel free to email me [email protected] if you have any questions.

Jeff_Jeske said:

Thanks for the props!!!

Feel free to email me [email protected] if you have any questions.

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You deserve them dude. At least in my opinion. I used a ton of your 'writeups'/information over on PT. Just sold my ZE 93pgt a couple weeks ago. Miss her, but looking for a new baby. I think a DSM is going to be it.

coolingmist said:

3 years ago I installed our kit on our Rx7. I had a problem with a ground connection and it pressed against the hood of the car activating the relay. This cause my 1 gallon tank of water to inject into the engine during the 30 minute drive home. after it emptied I noticed a bit of hesitation and slugishness. Not even close to hydrolock.

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You cannot hydrolock a rotary engine. However, I've seen the results of hydrolocking a 396 chevy including the bent forged rod.

adidalax said:

My apologies, man.....

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Don't worry.... I don't usually hold grudges.

I've noticed those that post when drunk usually end up posting stuff they don't normally.

Off topic: Damn... the pictures in your gallery make a grown man want to cry.

For truely helpful information on water injection from people who have been testing it for years, check out the water injection forum:

http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/

Brad from KC Saab and the guys from Aquamist are active on this forum, along with a bunch of very smart scientists.


-Craig (running dual stage WI)

psychlow said:

Don't worry.... I don't usually hold grudges.

I've noticed those that post when drunk usually end up posting stuff they don't normally.

Off topic: Damn... the pictures in your gallery make a grown man want to cry.

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I know I did.....quite possible the worst day of my life.......

Well I've been reading up on water injection for a couple days now, and had a couple questions I wasn't quite clear on.

Methanol is better than denatured alcohol for injecting correct? People just use denatured alcohol b/c it's easier to get and not quite as dangerous? And how dangerous is methanol really (especially when mixed with water)? I talked with my o chem prof and she said it was too bad as long as you don't drink it or anything stupid.

Also something been I had been thinking that jeff's site confirmed later that night was about Heet, which is a easily accessible, cheap source of straight methanol for those who'd rather mixed straight methanol with distilled water instead of use washer fluid.

This is exciting stuff, I think I may go with a smaller turbo than I had planned and just run water/meth to make up a bit of the hp diff w/o sacrificing spool.

People will argue which is better till their hair falls out.

The Grand National and Turbo Buick guys seem to prefer alchohol and the DSM crowd tends to lean towards methanol.

If you are interested in a slightly used kit. I have mine for sale. Email me: [email protected]

DSMtuned said:

For truely helpful information on water injection from people who have been testing it for years, check out the water injection forum:

http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/

Brad from KC Saab and the guys from Aquamist are active on this forum, along with a bunch of very smart scientists.


-Craig (running dual stage WI)

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craig are you back in town? Email me, its ryan burnett [email protected]

ahains said:

For what its worth, I spent about $100 for my complete WI system.
I used a 60psi Shurflo pump (model) from www.northerntool.com, and adjusted the pressure switch up to about 100psi.
It is $50 now, but was only $40 when I bought it:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...isplay?storeId=6970&productId=357081&R=357081

I bought all of my line, fittings, misting nozzle, and pressure switch from mcmaster.com.

You can find tons of info on this kind of setup at the Yahoo DSM water inject group:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DSM_water_injection/

HTH!
-Adrian

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how can you ajust the 60psi pump to 100psi?

andrzej

Not sure about his but on mine there is a screw on the top of the pump...you can adjust pressure this way. Mine went from 60psi to 140psi.

JJ

Jeff_Jeske said:

Not sure about his but on mine there is a screw on the top of the pump...you can adjust pressure this way. Mine went from 60psi to 140psi.

JJ

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how can you check the pressure once you turn it up ??

If you are serious about know the pressure you add a pressure gauge inline.

However when tunning you dont really need to know the exact pressure. You calculate the expected size nozzle then increase or decrease pressure depending upon the performance results you have. If you sense its bogging turn it down a bit. If not turn it up some.