Information on EVO3 GT turbochargers from manufacturer.

ShapeGSX · Apr 21, 2005

tighty said:
Maybe if you give this company a chance and not damn them to hell before you even try their product or have actual usage statistics they will turn into a multi-national business?

Everyone has to start somewhere....

We wouldn't be having this conversation if this company actually did their own R&D and came up with their own original turbo product and brought it to market and tried to succeed using the merits of a product they originally created.

Instead they copied someone else's R&D and some companies have tried to pawn it off as the original, including Turbochargers.com with their confusing product description.

Sure, everyone has to start somewhere. Some companies just try to get "somewhere" by stepping on the face of a company that has already been where they want to go. :notgood:

"Innovators, not imitators."

ShapeGSX · Apr 21, 2005

tighty said:
Yes...just like TV's and cars in general. There should only be 1 brand of TV, and only 1 kind of car, and everyone else should go invent something totally different. You are correct sir.

I'm sure that if Sony saw a company that had taken one of their TV designs, copied it by creating molds of their existing TV set and put a different label on it, the company that did it wouldn't be around for very long. I'm sure that Sony would make sure of that.

That is essentially what this company has done. Except they made their product perform worse. Unwittingly, it would seem.

Same would go for a company copying a Honda Civic panel for panel, part for part, putting a different sticker on the trunk and selling it for thousands less than Honda does.

Dave Buschur sure has gotten mad at companies that have copied his products in the past. Remember Indy Racecores? Remember the debacle about the guys from Extreme bending down to take a look under the 4BANGR back in 1996/1997? And with good reason, too!

tighty · Apr 21, 2005

ShapeGSX said:
I'm sure that if Sony saw a company that had taken one of their TV designs, copied it by creating molds of their existing TV set and put a different label on it, the company that did it wouldn't be around for very long. I'm sure that Sony would make sure of that.

That is essentially what this company has done. Except they made their product perform worse. Unwittingly, it would seem.

Same would go for a company copying a Honda Civic panel for panel, part for part, putting a different sticker on the trunk and selling it for thousands less than Honda does.

Dave Buschur sure has gotten mad at companies that have copied his products in the past. Remember Indy Racecores? Remember the debacle about the guys from Extreme bending down to take a look under the 4BANGR back in 1996/1997? And with good reason, too!

But what are all other Tv's but a variation on an original. You must have one of these GT models as well since you said it performs worse. Finally someone who has one that can give a good review...right, or were you just assuming?

Ah but I'm letting myself get caught up in the bs.

I will buy from neither Buschur or SBR until one of them posts something factual...at this point neither has credibility in this matter as all they've both posted is CRAP.

ShapeGSX · Apr 21, 2005

tighty said:
But what are all other Tv's but a variation on an original. You must have one of these GT models as well since you said it performs worse. Finally someone who has one that can give a good review...right, or were you just assuming?

Thicker blades on the turbo compressor means that there is less area for air to flow into the compressor inlet. That is a fact. We are talking facts, right? Unless air can flow through their aluminum?

My Evo III 16G is limited by the amount of air that can pass through the inlet. Thicker blades will NOT make this better!

The larger flapper means that the turbo will have trouble holding boost in the upper RPMs as exhaust pressure increases. Another fact that has been demonstrated on turbos with internal gates.

Like I said, let them step up to the plate and prove me wrong. But I bet we will be waiting for a long time.

Steve93Talon · Apr 21, 2005

Shape, it's pointless. Some people are just too obtuse to see the truth. Let them have their knock-offs and whatever problems it brings them down the line. And for those who say that you need to spend $200 for a port job and flapper door, feel free to ship me your turbine housings. I'll be GLAD to help you out.

Gigaah · Apr 21, 2005

I think what the person is getting at is its not like copying the TV, making some changes and selling it.
Its more like copying a sony TV, changing some thing, leaving the SONY brand but adding GT after the words sony. Its done often enough, most just frown upon it greatly. I agree if they would have merely named it differently to indicate its similar to the E III 16G with improvments people would be less critical and probably quite receptive due to the "factory port" and other stuff.

tighty · Apr 21, 2005

Steve93Talon said:
Shape, it's pointless. Some people are just too obtuse to see the truth. Let them have their knock-offs and whatever problems it brings them down the line. And for those who say that you need to spend $200 for a port job and flapper door, feel free to ship me your turbine housings. I'll be GLAD to help you out.

I'm all for truth, but no one has posted anything that I would classify as truth. Just a bunch of "fluff", opinions and bashing based on whether they don't like this vendor or that vendor or what they think about this turbo even thought they

1) don't have it
2) have looked at it and drew them conclusions simply by looking at it visually, and nothing else

No, I won't buy this thing until Buschur or someone else steps up with some usage statistics, but I also won't say it sucks ass before someone whos had one says it sucks ass...and yes I do like paying less money for a product that is similar and might perform the same...

tighty · Apr 21, 2005

Gigaah said:
I think what the person is getting at is its not like copying the TV, making some changes and selling it.
Its more like copying a sony TV, changing some thing, leaving the SONY brand but adding GT after the words sony. Its done often enough, most just frown upon it greatly. I agree if they would have merely named it differently to indicate its similar to the E III 16G with improvments people would be less critical and probably quite receptive due to the "factory port" and other stuff.

True, the name could have been changed, I do think that they should call it

Company Name Evo 3 GT

like we have

Mitsu EvoIII 16g

I even think the China GT name would be cool, not in a derogatory sense, but it would easily distinguish them.

I have lots of friends from China and they are very high quality =).

ShapeGSX · Apr 21, 2005

Guys, who cares where it is made? Look at how it performs and lasts compared to the original. If it doesn't perform better, then why buy it? It isn't like you are saving big bucks by buying the thing over the real deal! And it isn't like the real deal is exactly scarce.

And if all of this is true, why is it worth defending? :confused:

I wonder how many people have bought this thing without knowing that it wasn't a Mitsubishi turbo?

DSM90AWD · Apr 21, 2005

ShapeGSX said:
Guys, who cares where it is made? Look at how it performs and lasts compared to the original. If it doesn't perform better, then why buy it?

I should have stayed single :cry:

Here's an idea.. both Buschur and SBR have in-house dynos. Maybe one or both would step to the plate and do a side-by-side compare (spoolup, WHP, TQ) GT vs Evo16G and at least put the performance questions to bed :thumb:

Would also be nice to see if a compressor map is avail for the GT

ahaidet · Apr 21, 2005

Like its been said a thousand times lets see some numbers. Track times. Dyno numbers. Customers testimonials who have bought it. Reliability based on the warranty claims. I like everyone else am real interested in what the metallurgist that SBR has found. (unless he found nothing which is why we haven't heard anything.)

I think for me at least, the reason I am a DSM owner is for bang for my buck. We all know that for your dollar its hard to find a better performing car than ours. If this turbo performs similar to the real deal or better then great. If not then oh well nice try. The only way to validate performance/ reliability claims is with real actual data obtained on real cars driven by real people. You can bench race all day long and say well this X item is smaller than Y, and even very knowledgable and intelligent people can hypothesize what changing a certain dimension will do. I work in the tire industry, tires are more complex than the average bear realizes. When we are engineering a new tire we can speculate that changing this dimension will have this affect but in the real world nothing is ever as simple as changing one dimension. Because tied to that one dimension are 5 other things. So thats why we use sophisticated FEA (Finite Elemental Analysis) Software to predict as much as we can. After that we have to do real testing to prove our hypothesis correct. So unless you have an advanced degree in thermodynamics, and fluid mechanics and have performed the necessary testing and analysis. I think I would reserve judgment until proven reliable data is released on this turbo.

I am only commenting on the performance aspect of the turbo. Not in the moral implications of this argument, regarding the naming of the turbo. Personally I am not name brand conscious I don't care who makes if it works well and the price is fair then I am happy. As for this whole very heated thread and for alot of the heated threads on this informal and often entertaining forum, I think this quote sums it all about right:

"You can say one thing for ignorance: it certainly causes a lot of
interesting arguments."- Anonymous

99gst_racer · Apr 21, 2005

ShapeGSX said:
If it doesn't perform better, then why buy it?

Well put.

This turbo costs the retailers less and it was made to outperform the original MHI E3 16G due do it's standard 'upgrades'. Well the retail public isnt seeing the cost difference, so really what it comes down to is the performance difference. Until we see it's performance and lifespan, there's not really much to debate.

The only thing that would make the China GT worth buying is if it holds up like an MHI unit (or better) and if it peformes like an MHI unit (or better).

DSM90AWD said:
Here's an idea.. both Buschur and SBR have in-house dynos. Maybe one or both would step to the plate and do a side-by-side compare (spoolup, WHP, TQ) GT vs Evo16G and at least put the performance questions to bed

Sounds like a good idea. :thumb:

Dieselboy · Apr 21, 2005

You guys do know that it costs resellers $200-300 for each 16g GT they buy, depending on quantity? They are just doing it for a higher profit, why make $50 on a Mitsu turbo when you can make $300 on a copy?

tighty · Apr 21, 2005

ahaidet said:
Like its been said a thousand times lets see some numbers. Track times. Dyno numbers. Customers testimonials who have bought it. Reliability based on the warranty claims. I like everyone else am real interested in what the metallurgist that SBR has found. (unless he found nothing which is why we haven't heard anything.)

I think for me at least, the reason I am a DSM owner is for bang for my buck. We all know that for your dollar its hard to find a better performing car than ours. If this turbo performs similar to the real deal or better then great. If not then oh well nice try. The only way to validate performance/ reliability claims is with real actual data obtained on real cars driven by real people. You can bench race all day long and say well this X item is smaller than Y, and even very knowledgable and intelligent people can hypothesize what changing a certain dimension will do. I work in the tire industry, tires are more complex than the average bear realizes. When we are engineering a new tire we can speculate that changing this dimension will have this affect but in the real world nothing is ever as simple as changing one dimension. Because tied to that one dimension are 5 other things. So thats why we use sophisticated FEA (Finite Elemental Analysis) Software to predict as much as we can. After that we have to do real testing to prove our hypothesis correct. So unless you have an advanced degree in thermodynamics, and fluid mechanics and have performed the necessary testing and analysis. I think I would reserve judgment until proven reliable data is released on this turbo.

I am only commenting on the performance aspect of the turbo. Not in the moral implications of this argument, regarding the naming of the turbo. Personally I am not name brand conscious I don't care who makes if it works well and the price is fair then I am happy. As for this whole very heated thread and for alot of the heated threads on this informal and often entertaining forum, I think this quote sums it all about right:

"You can say one thing for ignorance: it certainly causes a lot of
interesting arguments."- Anonymous

I agree, well said. Why argue amongst ourselves, the burden of proof is on Buschur and SBR to back up their respective claims on this turbo. I would come quick with the results we have been demanding...both sides...otherwise that just will prove to me how much either of you actually care about your customer base.

I find it really disturbing that Buschur hasn't replied on this topic that he started initially in quite a few pages and that SBR hasn't come up with their results...When was that GT comparison they posted first put up on their website? How long does it take for a metalurgy analysis?

Slowboy · Apr 21, 2005

DSM90AWD said:
I should have stayed single

Here's an idea.. both Buschur and SBR have in-house dynos. Maybe one or both would step to the plate and do a side-by-side compare (spoolup, WHP, TQ) GT vs Evo16G and at least put the performance questions to bed

Would also be nice to see if a compressor map is avail for the GT

Why is the burden on me to dyno a piece of crap turbo?

I love selling the MHI version, we have made 400.3 WHP on the MHI version, and to be quite honest thats just fine with me.

I could really care less if the turbo does or does not perform, I have seen enough of it with my own eyes to know I would not bother putting this on my own engine, nor do I feel I need to..... I am not the one trying to prove how "great" they are

MGH

Slowboy · Apr 21, 2005

tighty said:
I agree, well said. Why argue amongst ourselves, the burden of proof is on Buschur and SBR to back up their respective claims on this turbo. I would come quick with the results we have been demanding...both sides...otherwise that just will prove to me how much either of you actually care about your customer base.

I find it really disturbing that Buschur hasn't replied on this topic that he started initially in quite a few pages and that SBR hasn't come up with their results...When was that GT comparison they posted first put up on their website? How long does it take for a metalurgy analysis?

Considering it happens to be a friend doing the work at Penn State, its not there first priority, nor mine at this point..

When its done, results will be posted.

MGH

deusxmachina · Apr 21, 2005

ShapeGSX said:
Dave Buschur sure has gotten mad at companies that have copied his products in the past. Remember Indy Racecores?

Oh no you di'nt! LOL

. Yeah, some words were had on that one. I wonder if having the profit shoe on the other foot is the only/main reason for the change of attitude this time around. I don't read minds very well, so who knows.

I don't know about the asking American turbo lovers to only buy American or whatever. The end consumer wouldn't even have the choice of buying things like this and supporting China if vendors didn't hate America

by offering them.

SB Mike is right that it isn't up to him to dyno something that he doesn't even sell. But, instead of taking the easier route of just letting people know the GT's aren't what people think they are, he did basically say they are crap, so now he's forced to provide evidence or take back his statements. If Mike can really get them for the price he said he can, I'm surprised he doesn't sell them with no warranty and undercut the China GT oligopoly by $200+ just out of spite. That would be amusing.

blcknspo0ln · Apr 21, 2005

jumping on board.. i'm curious to see how this fan's out... and, a bump for those FACTS already..

DSM90AWD · Apr 21, 2005

Slowboy said:
Why is the burden on me to dyno a piece of crap turbo?

I figured if you had the time to whip up a detailed webpage disparaging a competetor's turbo with hype and innuendo, then you might have the time to actually test one out

I'm sorry, but I hold vendors to a higher standard.. so if they want to say something is good or crap, then prove it.. with facts

Jon Lane · Apr 21, 2005

Slowboy said:
Why is the burden on me to dyno a piece of crap turbo?

That's a cheap appeal to belief. If you can't put up a valid argument, don't argue...

Coup D E'Tat · Apr 21, 2005

People, please try and stay on topic, as I would like to see how this thread ends up.

tighty · Apr 21, 2005

Slowboy said:
Considering it happens to be a friend doing the work at Penn State, its not there first priority, nor mine at this point..

When its done, results will be posted.

MGH

Why were you so quick to put up that page on opinions then if its no big deal and its no priority? If its no priority, it would have been much better to wait on your friend to get the results in. Maybe in that time, if the turbos suck as much as you alledge, we would be hearing about the massive failures of them by now and your work would be done for you.

If you want to say the product sucks, you better prove the product sucks, or just don't say anything at all, seeing as you are a vendor, and like someone said above, held to a higher standard, and your opinions might have some weight on peoples decisions, when they might turn out to not be valid in the first place.

If you had never said anything and these all these people were talking about how the turbo sucks, then it would be just on Buschur to prove that it doesn't, but you did, so now you have to backup what you started in my eyes.

And Buschur needs to respond to something on here...at this point thats +1 to SBR for at least responding.

I think we have plenty of votes now for FACTS about the turbo right people? I don't think any posts other than that will do anything but waste space.

ahaidet · Apr 22, 2005

Out of curiosity I would like to know how many people on here are really in the market for a turbo, and if so who is looking at potentially buying one of the GT's, provided that performance and reliability wise it stacks up against the real Evo. We have to remember that vendors are in this to make money, testing a turbo takes time and money and unless they have more money to make on this it is a bad investment to do the testing. If there are in fact alot of people considering this turbo on this board and there is money to be made from the results or be lost (in SBRs case), then I am sure they would be more interested in providing the results. On a deeper note, there are reputations on the line, results from something like this could help credit or discredit one shop or the other and in this business trust is everything.

One vote for in the turbo market and would consider the GT with reliable results proving its worth.

ShapeGSX · Apr 22, 2005

It will take well over a year to prove whether or not the "GT" is reliable in a real world situation.

Obviously, the real Evo III 16G has already been proven to be reliable. It is an OEM turbo that comes stock on a number of vehicles. Mine has held up perfectly at 20psi and tons of racing on my daily driver since August 2003. Probably over 25,000mi. No cracks in the exhaust housing.

tighty · Apr 22, 2005

I am in the market and looking at this turbo as well.

The Top DSM Community on the Web

Information on EVO3 GT turbochargers from manufacturer.

ShapeGSX

ShapeGSX

tighty

ShapeGSX

Steve93Talon

Gigaah

tighty

tighty

ShapeGSX

DSM90AWD

ahaidet

99gst_racer

Dieselboy

tighty

Slowboy

Slowboy

deusxmachina

blcknspo0ln

DSM90AWD

Jon Lane

Coup D E'Tat

tighty

ahaidet

ShapeGSX

tighty

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