I want to put a LSD in my AWD 1G to replace the open front differential. The car is used mainly for autox and I want to get rid of spinning the inside front tire all the time. It should also allow me to get on the throttle sooner and steer the car with the throttle easier.

Does anyone have any first hand driving impressions? Which would be better for autox, Kaaz or Quaife? I've read about the EVO RS, and the helical LSD it has in the front doesn't sound like the best option. One driver's comments were that he could feel it engaging and disengaging in the middle of the corner when he let off the throttle and got back on it mid-corner. I'm leaning more towards the Kaaz.

tanner261 said:

Does anyone have any first hand driving impressions? Which would be better for autox, Kaaz or Quaife? I'm leaning more towards the Kaaz.

Click to expand...

For racing, I'd go with the Kaaz. I havent heard of many complaints from people racing with it. It's only downside is that it's not as streetable as the helical style. I'm currently using the Quaife and I love the feel around the corners. Feels 200x better than the old open front diff. But I dont race mine, it a daily driver. With that being said, If you race more than you comute, then go with the Kaaz. Both are excellent products though.

Based on other reviews on the forum (do a search for quaife, kaaz, LSD, etc) the kaaz is way more predictable (which makes sense). If you're really into autox you should probably look into the kaaz.

2gGSX said:

Based on other reviews on the forum (do a search for quaife, kaaz, LSD, etc) the kaaz is way more predictable (which makes sense). If you're really into autox you should probably look into the kaaz.

Click to expand...

ive read countless times that for handling purposes quaife is superior, all out drag would be better suited with an lsd

14.5 drift said:

ive read countless times that for handling purposes quaife is superior, all out drag would be better suited with an lsd

Click to expand...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125675&highlight=quaife+kaaz

That should answer your questions. Regarding a quaife being superior in a racing (used for real racing not getting milk) car; the main points that swayed me are the behavior of the quaife should you lift a wheel, and the fact that a clutch type will be more predictable. If you dont plan on doing any driving that really requires your car to be this predictable (autox, road racing, etc) or if you won't be pulling any crazy lateral g's to cause a wheel lift, then by all means I'd probably go for a quaife as well, with their life time warranty, and requiring less maintenance. In tanner's case however, his car is mainly used for autox, which is why I suggested the kaaz to him.

hey don't forget tremendous AWD drifting

2gGSX said:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125675&highlight=quaife+kaaz

That should answer your questions. Regarding a quaife being superior in a racing (used for real racing not getting milk) car; the main points that swayed me are the behavior of the quaife should you lift a wheel, and the fact that a clutch type will be more predictable. If you dont plan on doing any driving that really requires your car to be this predictable (autox, road racing, etc) or if you won't be pulling any crazy lateral g's to cause a wheel lift, then by all means I'd probably go for a quaife as well, with their life time warranty, and requiring less maintenance. In tanner's case however, his car is mainly used for autox, which is why I suggested the kaaz to him.

Click to expand...

www.farnorthracing.com

dedicated autocrossers, they use quaife in the center and front. As well ive heard of other track types of cars prefer the helical for handling.

http://www.slowboyracing.com/Drivetrain/LSD/LSD.html

why is this one soooo much cheeper?

2gGSX said:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125675&highlight=quaife+kaaz

That should answer your questions. Regarding a quaife being superior in a racing (used for real racing not getting milk) car; the main points that swayed me are the behavior of the quaife should you lift a wheel, and the fact that a clutch type will be more predictable. If you dont plan on doing any driving that really requires your car to be this predictable (autox, road racing, etc) or if you won't be pulling any crazy lateral g's to cause a wheel lift, then by all means I'd probably go for a quaife as well, with their life time warranty, and requiring less maintenance. In tanner's case however, his car is mainly used for autox, which is why I suggested the kaaz to him.

Click to expand...

^^^ Well said ^^^

ballagsx said:

http://www.slowboyracing.com/Drivetrain/LSD/LSD.html
why is this one soooo much cheeper?

Click to expand...

That is a kit that is inserted into the stock differential to "convert" it to an LSD. It is alot cheaper, but the downside is that you are still using the factory diff. gears and housing and they are not as strong as the quaife or the components of the Kaaz.

Show me an autocrosser who has replaced the front diff with anything other than a Quaife and I'll show you someone who didn't do enough research.

There's a lot of debate about the center and rear diffs, but there's no question about the front.

- Jtoby

jtmcinder said:

Show me an autocrosser who has replaced the front diff with anything other than a Quaife and I'll show you someone who didn't do enough research.

There's a lot of debate about the center and rear diffs, but there's no question about the front.

- Jtoby

Click to expand...

Personally, I trust almost whatever this guy says, but as I said I just based my information off the thread I linked to previously.

Thanks for the kind words. Let me amplify.

A Kaaz gets its locking power from input torque. This works great in drag racing where you're at WOT all the time, but it doesn't work for autocrossing because we are often turning so hard that you can't feed in all the power. A Quaife locks as a function of the difference in output torques. So it can bias torque at any level of power, allowing you to keep the inside from spinning even when only applying half throttle. Combine a front Quaife with some static front toe-out and you can use power to rotate the car (albeit in a different manner from RWD power oversteer).

Yes, it's true that once you lift a wheel (or just get the grip down to near zero) a Quaife goes open, but DSMs don't lift the inside front unless sprung so incorrectly as to make the driveline not an issue. We do lift the inside rear, however, which explains why people leave the rear as a box-of-goo or swap in a Kaaz.

In the center, there are three lines of thought and the jury still seems to be out. Some use a Quaife; some use a Kaaz; and one guy is using a Cusco 35/65 with a half-dead VC. Given that the last guy runs in Street Prepared and still put down better times than the Street Mod guy who has a Quaife (at Nationals), I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the 35/65 approach.

- Jtoby

Do you know of a specific autocrosser using a Kaaz?

I've seen videos of a Cusco equipped EVO going around an autox course which handled exceptionally well. Cusco specific autocrosser using a Kaaz?

I've seen videos of a Cusco equipped EVO going around an autox course which handled exceptionally well. Cusco diffs are clutch type, but are offered in 1, 1.5, and 2 way. The Kaaz are only offered in 1.5 way according to their website www.kaazusa.com

Description from Kaaz site:

As a result, when compared with other L.S.D. brands, you will find that a KAAZ L.S.D. offers the following advantages: The sensitive L.S.D. will work even when the slightest torque is applied.
Increased ability to transfer power from the engine to the wheels without loss of power.
The power acting on the plates is reduced so that abrasion on the plates are protected.
Increased number of friction plates greatly improves abrasion efficiency and heat capacitance of the plates.
Not only the friction plates, but all parts of our L.S.D. have been improved and made larger, so the overall strength of the main body is increased.

I'm mostly interested in the Kaaz because of price and the writeup on Magnus' webpage. I haven't been able to find a place to get a Cusco for the front. If the Quaife is the best choice for autox, then I'll start saving my pennies.

ive been taking my gsx mudding alot since it started raining, that 65/35 differential would be quite nice to have round now :laugh:

I'm not aware of any front Cucso diffs for our cars. I also don't know anyone running a front Kaaz for autocrossing. There are a bunch of people with Kaaz and Quaife centers, but I know only one with a Cusco center. The usual order of upgrades is a Quaife in the front, then something new in the center, then (sometimes) a Kaaz in the rear. The front and center Quaifes work well together. I've not driven a DSM with a Kaaz in the rear and have heard mixed reports on this. I think I understand why, but would rather not guess.

- Jtoby

When I get my LSD, I'm personally going with a Kaaz, mainly due to the predictability. It really isn't all that difficult to lift the inside front tire on a 2G DSM, at least on average roads. On a perfectly smooth autox course maybe, but I know of a few Harford County roads that I can lift the inside front tire on without even giving it 100% through them.

Even not counting that, your style of driving will also have some bearing on which to get. Personally, my slowest speed through a turn is the speed I enter it at. After entry, I'm partial throttle through the apex of the turn, and full throttle out of it. It's nice to know exactly how your LSD is going to work, especially for night-time backroad driving.

jtmcinder said:

I'm not aware of any front Cucso diffs for our cars. I also don't know anyone running a front Kaaz for autocrossing. There are a bunch of people with Kaaz and Quaife centers, but I know only one with a Cusco center. The usual order of upgrades is a Quaife in the front, then something new in the center, then (sometimes) a Kaaz in the rear. The front and center Quaifes work well together. I've not driven a DSM with a Kaaz in the rear and have heard mixed reports on this. I think I understand why, but would rather not guess.

- Jtoby

Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but putting a Kaaz diff in the rear requires you to buy a special set of JDM inner joints, doesn't it?

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/ecldrivetrain.htm

It's all the way in the bottom. $300 each! If it makes anything short of a spectacular difference, I don't think it's worth it, IMO.

This thread reminds me of the first times I got on the gas with a front LSD. I wanted to test it out so at a stoplight, turning left, it turns green and I cranked the wheel and just punched it. The car tracked like it was on rails, no torque steer. A couple of hours later it was rush hour and I need to cross two lanes of heavy traffic moving about 45 MPH to turn left into more heavy traffic. I spotted a TINY, TINY gap coming up both directions so I brought the revs up and launched. Both fronts spun first, then the VC connected and I lit up all four all the way accross both lanes WHILE turning and I settled into the gap in the far lanes. Then I looked in the rear view to see how close I was to the car behind me and I see that it's, of course, a COP with no lights on top. He must have approved because he didn't pull me over. :laugh:

In a perfect world:

Front: Quaife (predictable smooth front end.)
Center: Cusco (rear bias split: 35F/65R, car can rotate easier)
Rear: Kazz (helps with transition from steady state to oversteer. breaks rear end easier than VC.)

(Next, relocate the engine to the middle.)


my 0.2 cents.

UCSLugRacerX said:

In a perfect world:

Front: Quaife (predictable smooth front end.)
Center: Cusco (rear bias split: 35F/65R, car can rotate easier)
Rear: Kazz (helps with transition from steady state to oversteer. breaks rear end easier than VC.)

Click to expand...

You left out one component to this perfect set-up: a driver who doesn't cone every damn run on Day 2!

Love ya, Chuckles!

- Jtoby