IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

Sleepr DSM · Feb 17, 2004

There is alot of good information and research on this topic in this thread:

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87169&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

The biggest problem that most air-water-air intercooling systems have is that the front mounted heat exchanger, what I call the Intercooler radiator, is neglected. An oil cooler, or a transmisison cooler, does not have the efficiency at cooling water that a WATER cooler does, that is....a radiator. There are examples as you can see in the link above of daily driven air-water-air intercooling systems that keep the charge air intake temperatures 10 degrees above ambient in 90 degree weather, without heat soaking. No element of the system can be neglected if that efficiency is to be attained. It seems like 9 out of 10 people who try this,
make a half assed effort out of it just to give air/water/air intercooling a bad name.

I'm working on an Air/water intercooler core that is 12x10x4.5 mounted where the battery used to be. That will be mated to a radiator mounted well IN FRONT and below the engine radiator. This second radiator will be one of these dimensions... (still working on that) either 50 inches long and 5.5 inches tall, or 31 inches long and 10.5 inches tall. It will mounted in a similar fashion as one would mount a large front mounted race core, but it will not hang below the lower lip of the front bumper.

I'll post some pictures later.

markgholland · Feb 17, 2004

It's amazing the skeptics huh? It was very interesting reading that thread on dsmtalk; there was a lot of information that seems to be repeated every time the idea of a water/air setup is mentioned on a streetcar. When I first considered a water/air setup, I thought that my car was going to be a streetcar, but it ended up being a drag project.

I will be running the Spearco 2-231 core as well, but mine is a little different as one of the endtanks if facing the throttle body. I have relocated my battery to the trunk and removed my cruise control to make room for the core. I have obtained a stock heat exchanger from a lightning svt that is huge and should be more than enough to serve as an efficient street exchanger. Like I said, the car has turned into a drag car, but I still plan to utilize a heat exchanger just in case I want to go rice hunting

As I stated in an earlier post the website http://wraithmr2.com/air2water.htm was a great resource.

I plan to do the following...
Spearco 2-231 core attached directly to the throttle body
RCI-2030 reservoir mounted in the trunk from Summitt Racing
Ford lightning SVT heat exchanger mounted in front of stock radiator
Jabsco Centri Puppy Marine bilge pump (same as in link)
5/8" silicone heater hose
Custom short pipe intercooler piping
Various couplers, NPT fittings

My setup will be very similar to the MR2 setup with the exception of the heat exchanger. This setup, in my opinion is ideal for the drag car and is also very streetable with the right setup.

A few questions remain... In reference to the BOV location, is it ok to locate the BOV before the water/air core cools the compressed air? As I mentioned before, I plan to run a 6", 3" diameter intercooler pipe front he core, which is now where the batter/cruise control used to be, to the throttle body. If looking at the stock intercooling setup, I have noticed that the BOV is after the air is cooled. Could this propose and immediate or long-term issues?

Also, could a temperature probe be inserted post intercooler, pre throttle body to measure the intake charge at different throttle points? This would be a very valuable tool to have for tuning, especially in comparing ice water with regular water. Also, could you do the same with the reservoir tank? That is, install a temperature probe?

My Spearco 2-231... Sorry for the size!

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My heat exchanger from a lightning SVT...

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DSM007 · Mar 7, 2004

I am currently using a stock sidemount IC off of a 1G that has been boxed in to flow water through the air to air fins with a 3/4 inch inlet going in through the topside from a jabsco 500gph bildge pump mounted inside of a 2 1/2 quart radiator overflow tank and coming out the bottom of the water tanks on one side through an 11/32 fitting to a permacool thinline 24,000lbs tranny cooler mounted at the front of the car to cool off the water,the tranny cooler has tubolator tubes in it to move the liquid in a circular pattern through it so all the fins will cool the liquid too,thats why I choose it for a heat exchanger,I put on 2 1/4 inch inlets and outlets on the IC cause it goes from a 2lbs to a 0.4lbs pressure drop putting boost through it as dejon tool says when they mod them........but mines right under the hood so I have only 1foot of plumbing in the whole system which makes throttle response awesome and spools up a 20G at 3300rpm's with an internal 40mm wategate which blows open easily too at part throttle..........just a thought for you guys who dont think a water to air IC works good..P.S. I spent $160 on the whole project.....so anyone have an idea on how to cheaply measure the before and after the IC temperatures?(I was looking at some digital meat thermometers at walmart for $11 to mod so I can extend it outside the car to read the temperatures all the way to 300 degrees)

Sleepr DSM · Mar 8, 2004

MarkgHolland,

WooHOO!! Somebody else is thinking along the same lines that I am.
What are the dimensions on the Ford Lightning heat exchanger? Do you have a part number? Aproximate price? How large are the inlet and outlets? That fuel cell from rci is actually affordable.. and a good choice for this application.
I really like the way you are hooking the intercooler directly to the throttle body. The research I have done suggests that there is no harm in mounting the blow off valve before the intercooler if that is what is required.

We have GOT to mount air intake temperature sensors before and after the intercooler to determine the efficiency of these systems. I was going to use a GM air intake sensor and wiring pigt tail (part numbers 25036751 and 12102620) hooked up to the EMS to datalog temperatures. There is a npt threaded weld on steel bung from mcmaster.com (part number 12555K82 that I am going to use to mount the sensors in the intake pipes. One bung will be on the throttle body elbow, and the other before the intercooler.

I'm also going to run the water through a chiller using the Air conditioning system. It is a bottle through which the water from the AWAIC system would flow. But..inside the bottle is a coil through which coolant from the AC flows. I know this idea is only practical for those of us who still have an AC.

So, the water will flow from the Intercooler, through the front mounted radiator, back to the aluminum reservoir, then through the Chiller.. and back into the intercooler.

Do you know how big the lid is on that RCI reservoir?

- Gabe Nobles

SoSprayMe · Mar 9, 2004

Why is everyone afraid of nitrous? It cools the charge when it needs to be cooled. Who cares if the Water to Air IC cools the charge when the car isn't moving? I use to like the idea of the water-air ICs but they're not really needed. A nicely matched a2a FMIC will do nicely. Just avoid acute angles in the plumbing and all will be well.
markgholland, that looks like a nicely thought out setup you're planning there. Any new updates you could message me?

Respects,

Enigma_Man · Mar 10, 2004

SoSpray, I think you're missing the entire point of this thread

This is something that can be done that doesn't involve having to get nitrous from somewhere every so often (if your water level is low you can just use sink water, which everybody has). It's also something that works all the time, you don't have to worry about making it activate or deactivate, AND, you can use nitrous on top of this setup as well for even more gains.

The real reason to do this is much shorter pipe routing.

-Jesse

SoSprayMe · Mar 10, 2004

Mister E. Nigma,

I see that this gentleman wants to cool his charge. It seems like he wants to keep it cool at unnecessary times [i.e. - when its idling]. The only time you need to get extra cool is when performance means the most like when youre lining up. A 12lb bottle would last a nice amount of time over the water in the W2A I/C if its only used when needed. I'm sure you're not ignorant to nitrous setups, they are extremely simple to install and get running. And cutting down on piping isn't all that critical when the stock location piping works just fine as it is. I mean a shorter route is nice for intake charges but when you're spraying you really don't have to worry about that. Pretty much my point is, he doesn't seem to be building an 8.76 second rocket. So a nice spray in the outlet end tank would yield more impressive results.

Regards,

markgholland · Mar 11, 2004

Originally posted by SoSprayMe
Mister E. Nigma,
I see that this gentleman wants to cool his charge. It seems like he wants to keep it cool at unnecessary times [i.e. - when its idling]. The only time you need to get extra cool is when performance means the most like when youre lining up. A 12lb bottle would last a nice amount of time over the water in the W2A I/C if its only used when needed. I'm sure you're not ignorant to nitrous setups, they are extremely simple to install and get running. And cutting down on piping isn't all that critical when the stock location piping works just fine as it is. I mean a shorter route is nice for intake charges but when you're spraying you really don't have to worry about that. Pretty much my point is, he doesn't seem to be building an 8.76 second rocket. So a nice spray in the outlet end tank would yield more impressive results.

Regards,

I may be misinterpreting your post, but what I was trying to get at is that the system at any given point will be more efficient if the intake charges are cool. This is why people use ice in the resivoir when drag racing. I like your idea of nitrious in the outlet end tank, but I'm trying to stay away from nitrious, not because I'm "afraid" of it, but because I want to see what I can get out of my car before I spray it.

To answer someone's question, the dimensions of the heat exchanger are 9"X24" and the inlets/outlets are about 5/8". Unfortunatly, I don't have the part number. I bought it used, so I'm not sure of the part number; I haven't looked on it for one yet.

There is really no updates on the system yet. I've pieced it together and an now waiting on other parts, like my FP3052 from Forced Performance :thumb:

I'll keep ya'll updated when I get it running.

VRC Racing · Mar 12, 2004

Mark,

Your A/W core looks a lot like mine

http://www.ddsm.org/vrcracing/images/2001_build/DCP_0536.JPG

-Russ

Defiant · Mar 12, 2004

Originally posted by markgholland
I like your idea of nitrious in the outlet end tank, but I'm trying to stay away from nitrious, not because I'm "afraid" of it, but because I want to see what I can get out of my car before I spray it.

Using nitrous on the outside of the IC isn't "spraying", it's "wasting". Absurd to use nitrous for this, you'd be better off with CO2. But it still wouldn't be much help.

nitrious?

markgholland · Mar 13, 2004

Originally posted by Defiant
Using nitrous on the outside of the IC isn't "spraying", it's "wasting". Absurd to use nitrous for this, you'd be better off with CO2. But it still wouldn't be much help.

nitrious?

I was referring to "spraying" it in general; comment wasn't specific to the end tank, but use of nitrous in general. I guess I should have been more clear.

ballagsx · Sep 13, 2004

Ok i just want to know if you guys think that this might be better than a stock smic, not trying to compair air to water to a fmic. i know that a fmic is a better bang for your buck than an air to water intercooler would be. ok. say you made an air to water intercooler with a small radiator (or if you can think of something that would work better) to cool the water, and made a water jacket around the stock smic or some other small intercooler to cool the intake air. then of course take care of the pump and control of it and blah blah blah.
so do you think that sort of a set up would work better than the stock ic.

badbu68 · Sep 13, 2004

of course boxing in your smic to be a2w will be better than stock.

Blue92 · Sep 13, 2004

Don't waste your time. The stock IC can only flow so much. You won't even notice a difference with all that. If you are that concerned get a CO2 sprayer on it. Since it is in the wheel well it shouldn't get into your filter/engine. Or just spray it when you are off throttle to cool it off. You can build a kit for cheap.

ballagsx · Sep 13, 2004

good point about the flow. maybe opening up the ends up a bit would help? i just like the idea of air to water intercoolers and i like toying around with mods that are sort of original.
so you think that it would be better than stock. do you think that it would be better considering the weight that would be added? it probably wouldnt be too much.

markgholland · Sep 13, 2004

Please, feel free to use the search function...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51862&highlight=water+intercooling

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68023&highlight=water+intercooling

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22457&highlight=water+intercooling

~Mark

ballagsx · Sep 13, 2004

i have read probably all of those. they are all just threads about people arguing about why an air to water intercooler is a waster of efort and to just buy a fmic.
i was jsut wondering if they were better than stock, and maybe something fun to try.

markgholland · Sep 13, 2004

ballagsx said:
i have read probably all of those. they are all just threads about people arguing about why an air to water intercooler is a waster of efort and to just buy a fmic.
i was jsut wondering if they were better than stock, and maybe something fun to try.

Of course they are better than stock, that is a given. However, for a street application it is unnecessary and complicated.
~Mark

ballagsx · Sep 14, 2004

markgholland said:
Of course they are better than stock, that is a given. However, for a street application it is unnecessary and complicated.
~Mark

ok, so it will be fun.

crankbender · Sep 14, 2004

Air to water ICs are far superior to stock and FMICs. If you can do it correctly an AWIC will

reduce intake volume
prevent heat soak from the radiator
decrease under hood temps
decrease intake pressure loss (the ic is smaller and the piping has fewer turns)
reduce the need for wired fans
reduce weight for the same ammount of heat soak ability (water has a higher specific heat)

AWICs are far superior to anything else if done correctly. The problem is doing them correctly.

markgholland · Sep 14, 2004

crankbender said:
AWICs are far superior to anything else if done correctly. The problem is doing them correctly.

BINGO!!! Anytime intake charges are cooler than ambient temperatures youre doing alright :thumb:

~Mark

guitarXgeek · Sep 14, 2004

Just for curiousity's sake, and in case someone searches on this again, what exactly makes a way of doing it the "correct" or "incorrect" way? Thanks!

gixrman · Sep 14, 2004

You could use a Supra SMIC and fab. your own end tanks use a motorcycle (preferably a sportbike) radiator to cool the water and and a acumulator tank with a slot on the side for dry ice. I want to do this to just need the time.

also i'm sure you could get a short section of core from RRE or other vendor for cheap.

markgholland · Sep 14, 2004

gixrman said:
You could use a Supra SMIC and fab. your own end tanks use a motorcycle (preferably a sportbike) radiator to cool the water and and a acumulator tank with a slot on the side for dry ice. I want to do this to just need the time.

This is an example of the incorrect way of building a water-to-air setup. Making your own intercooler, that's fine, however, for a street application that small radiator will not be efficient enough to cool the water in the system down. Also, you need a marine bilge pump that will flow enough to circulate the water in order for the whole setup to be efficient. There is always a possibility that the pump could fail(they aren't cheap by the way).

A water-air-intercooler on a street car is not practical. For the few that run this intercooler setup on the street for day to day driving, I have props to, but would not recommend it to the average DSMer.

gixrman said:
also i'm sure you could get a short section of core from RRE or other vendor for cheap.

Intercooler core is not cheap, hence why FMICs are so expensive.

In case you are wondering, I built one of these setups myself, tested it, and decided that a FMIC would be more practical, even though I don't drive my car on the street much.
~Mark

ballagsx · Sep 14, 2004

markgholland said:
This is an example of the incorrect way of building a water-to-air setup. Making your own intercooler, that's fine, however, for a street application that small radiator will not be efficient enough to cool the water in the system down. Also, you need a marine bilge pump that will flow enough to circulate the water in order for the whole setup to be efficient. There is always a possibility that the pump could fail(they aren't cheap by the way).

it might be large enough, i got the idea from a gmc syclone that i had to change a headgasket on and i was facinated by the air to water intercooler. the syclone's heat exchanger, i think its called, wasnt all taht big and it had to cool alot of hot air.

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