2G Lifter Advice / Low Compression Issue

[turtlebain]

I have a situation where I had my motor and head built at a machine shop recommended to my by another local shop. Not having assembled a motor before, and wanting it done right I told the machinist to completely assemble the short block in his shop. When I got to assembling the long block together and installing it into the car I had some start up problems. Low compression in cylinder 2 from the very beginning and had to resort to starter fluid to get it to fire. Thinking it was the new cylinder rings and valve job that hadn't been broken in / seated properly, It worried me but I didn't concern about it too much especially when it started on its own shortly after that.

So I proceeded to go about the break in and after a few miles did another compression test. Compression raised across the board but was still low with cylinder 2. I thought I needed an expert opinion at this point.

I took it over to a local shop that is very familiar with DSMs to verify my findings and diagnose further. They verified the low compression on #2 but also said it passed the leakdown test they performed with only 2% leak.

I woke at a car dealership. I talked to one of the techs and told him what was going on. The tech suggested it was a bad lifter or rocker that was causing this. So my plan was to swap to a new set of 3G revised lifters, and switch the rockers with anther cylinder to see if the problem migrated.

Now I spoke with the shop owner I have the car at , he's telling me he highly doubts new lifters (or rockers) are going to do anything, and says that he's gotten a handful of botched heads back from this machinist (that THEY recommended) and they no longer do business. The owner also says the only lifter that actually does its job are the Mitsubishi Evo lifters, which just happen to be $640 per set vs. $150 for the Topline 3G revised lifter. Also says a bad rocker would only keep the valve closed, not open.

He went on to say if I got the work done through them, they would make sure its operating correctly before I leave the shop. But he cannot give me an accurate estimate of the total cost of work or even verify the valve job was botched by the machinist before removing the head.

Now I need to get some things straight.

(1) Could my issue be caused by lifters or rockers
(2) Are the Topline 3G revised lifters sufficient or should I actually go with the Evo ones ?
(3) Do you have to buy new head studs (I have ARP L19) if removing the head?
(4) do I have to get the engine / head or both resurfaced when removing the head?

Sorry for long thread I have a lot on my mind at the moment.

 

[Gstclipse69]

Revised 3g lifters will do the trick. Absolutely no need to fork out a bunch of cash for evo ones. Extremepsi has them for $99
No you do not need new head studs. L19's are a beast and should be able to be reused several times as long as they are not stretched. I doubt this is a lifter or rocker problem.

 

[turtlebain]

Revised 3g lifters will do the trick. Absolutely no need to fork out a bunch of cash for evo ones. Extremepsi has them for $99
No you do not need new head studs. L19's are a beast and should be able to be reused several times as long as they are not stretched. I doubt this is a lifter or rocker problem.

Not trying to say you don't know your stuff, but where are you getting your info from? I was told by the shop owner when you torque L19s they become stretched. I torqued them to 135 ft-lbs as per ARP's recommendation.

What makes you say the lifters or rockers aren't the problem?

 

[Lou98GSX]

If the intake valve doesn't open to let air in the cylinder you will have low compression . Now a leak down test was done and it passed so yes you could have a lifter problem or a rocker . best thing is to take the valve cover off and see if the lifter collapsed . You could also swap the lifter to another cylinder to see if the problem changes .

 

[turtlebain]

Yeah the plan was to do a whole new set of lifters and swap rockers to a different cylinder.

As far as lifters are the Topline 3G revised sufficient for street and drag use? The shop owner says the Evo lifter is the only one he trusts in all his cars.

He also said it is taller than OEM. I was going to add spacers under the lifters as I have a Delta Camshaft H272 set. They say to space with #10 washers under the lifter to bring it up to the center line of the cam after it has been ground. Now if the Topline lifter is taller anyway , maybe I don't need the spacers.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I have Topline 3g revised in my 10:1 motor with Kelford 264's, L-19's and ARP everything, the lifters are great and would do them again any day. You don't have to shim them either. They work perfect! I have been to the track and I also daily drive (or almost daily) my car and I would advise those lifters to anyone over stock OEM ones.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

When you installed the lifters, did you bleed them or were they pumped up?

3G lifters are tried and true around here. No need for Evo lifters. Evo rockers may be beneficial if you ever need to change them out.

Head studs are reusable.

Which head gasket are you using and how long did the car run if at all? Did it fully warm up? Did you drive it?

 

[okm12346]

DKS cams need the washers sometimes. There's a write up on when to use the washers.

If you remove the rockers for that cylinder then all valves should be closed. Then use the compression tester fitting and a NPT to batb fitting from any hardware store with a piece of hose to blow air with your mouth down that cylinder. If it leaks as you blow then you have a ring problem or not properly seated valve. If it doesnt, then most likely the lifter isnt bled properly and keeps the valve partially open. And third, you DKS need to be shimmed

Do not remove the head unless is completely necessary. I burned thru 2 head gaskets and retorques my ARPs twice to determine that my lifter was stuck. That cylinder had 30psi of compression while all others had 180-190psi.

 

[turtlebain]

I have Topline 3g revised in my 10:1 motor with Kelford 264's, L-19's and ARP everything, the lifters are great and would do them again any day. You don't have to shim them either. They work perfect! I have been to the track and I also daily drive (or almost daily) my car and I would advise those lifters to anyone over stock OEM ones.

Thank you, and the spacers are because of the Delta cams. They are a ground cam.

When you installed the lifters, did you bleed them or were they pumped up?

3G lifters are tried and true around here. No need for Evo lifters. Evo rockers may be beneficial if you ever need to change them out.

Head studs are reusable.

Which head gasket are you using and how long did the car run if at all? Did it fully warm up? Did you drive it?

I cleaned using diesel fuel as a solvent, then oiled and bled . They were soft. Compressible by hand I made sure before installing them.

I know 3G lifters but there are a handful or different brands.

Car ran for about 25 miles. Warmed up fully, yep.

Head gasket is Cometic MLS.

 

[turtlebain]

DKS cams need the washers sometimes. There's a write up on when to use the washers.

If you remove the rockers for that cylinder then all valves should be closed. Then use the compression tester fitting and a NPT to batb fitting from any hardware store with a piece of hose to blow air with your mouth down that cylinder. If it leaks as you blow then you have a ring problem or not properly seated valve. If it doesnt, then most likely the lifter isnt bled properly and keeps the valve partially open. And third, you DKS need to be shimmed

Do not remove the head unless is completely necessary. I burned thru 2 head gaskets and retorques my ARPs twice to determine that my lifter was stuck. That cylinder had 30psi of compression while all others had 180-190psi.

This gives me hope that it may be a rocker / lifter issue. I'll see about replacing lifters and switching rockers next.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

Swap your supposed bad rocker/lifters with another cylinder and see if the problem migrates. Don't remove the head until you've done all you can to prove that it is or isnt a lifter. I think you might be in luck this time.

 

[turtlebain]

Swap your supposed bad rocker/lifters with another cylinder and see if the problem migrates. Don't remove the head until you've done all you can to prove that it is or isnt a lifter. I think you might be in luck this time.

Yep, this is exactly what I'm going to do. I'm just trying to arrange plans to get it home.

 

[Chumpaumpalumpa]

Yep, this is exactly what I'm going to do. I'm just trying to arrange plans to get it home.

AAA was probably one of the best investment I made for the DSM.......

 

[Gstclipse69]

Arp recommends like around 90-100 lbs of torque with their moly lube. If using motor oil then the torque value is like 110-120. Just inspect the studs to see if the threads show any signs of galling.
http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/207-4701.pdf

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

Hey bro. If you reused the lifters I used in my rebuild they are topline 3G from parts dino. And yeah, I didn't know about the washers when I installed the cams. As I opened the box from DKS they just taped or stapled the bag of washer to the package/box and I had bought washers for valve cover and other areas so when I seen them on my bench I just figured they where ones I bought. The instructions from Delta are the on the box for install. I saw shims but I'd expect a shim of some sort that was special not just hardware store stuff and just overlooked it past that. Did you loose the package I sent you few years ago of random GSX parts I found in my garage. I think the "shims" where in the package.

I'm gonna guess dude its a easy solution. I'm glad others backed up what I was gonna text u that L19s are reuseable. Also most hillbilly shops can do headwork. I know the shop told you to bring it to that machine shop but other then the machine shop taking short cuts on a cylinder head for a basic DD they knew you where gonna be making good power. Idk why they would have short cutted anything when they did work on cars that STM would be building and maintaining a positive relationships with STM with quality machine work.

I do see any machinng needing to be done as long as everything is in good shape, nice and flat etc. I'd say like everyone else keep the head on. I'm gonna guess its a silly issue. We have talked lots over the build N past few years and you did a great amount of research and attention to detail. Also I was watching them jefrtole videos on YouTube and I'd really like to see you get adj cam gears and a degree wheel and get it on point. After seeing his math and the results and how much correction you can get out of the adj gears. Idk invest in it. Plus you wanna rev that thing high don't you... ??

Good luck bro. Hmu if you want chat more. Hope its a easy fix and hopefully someone else can help with more ideas to check...

DSM 4 Life .... Pz out, I'm Audi! GN

 

[inthemidst]

Just drive the car till you have at least 5000 miles than do a compression test.I'm sure your rings are not seated yet.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

Does it take that long for rings to seat. From what I knew cylinder walls glaze over quickly and at that point the rings are filed down by the cylinder walls finish (cross hatch) and the rings if are filed if the proper amount of boost for break-in was run that pushed the rings further into the cylinder walls b4 the walls glazed over. I don't remember in my engine building class for high performance boosted engines it taking 5k miles.

Sorry dont have to research anything my wife's family is in town. When I can I will look up the info I was referring too

 

[miliman13]

So as you know. Lifters : lift. By lifting they intern create leverage on with the rocker. So they open the valve. If you pull out your lifters and check comp you should see no difference, unless your problem it a pumped lifter; that maintained the valve open, and possibly made contact with piston. That would require valve job.

Apart from this, it may be rings, but assuming all are in spec ( proper clearance equally) then why one cylinder? .. So moving one it could be improper seal/torque..Ect.. But I partially feel piston contact may have been a cause.... Keep us informed.