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1G fic650cc and evo316g on stock motor tunning HELP!?

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911gdsmboostin

Proven Member
390
22
Sep 5, 2014
Irwin, Pennsylvania
hello I wanst trying to post about this and wanted to research about it more but im at a deadline im buying and evo316g turbo and fic 650cc injectors from another dsmer on this site and am paying him tomorrow for it, ive been researching as much as I can about how to tune it as in apexi safc2 an such I know about ecm v3 but here's my conflict... I have 2 eagle talons almost identical one is the power monster and the other is the daily driver.. the tsi (power monster) is undergoing the long process of upgrades to keep this short it has all the supporting internals to accommodate over 600 hp using a hx40 1450cc and a lot more then I need to explain it is the car getting full v3 as it should.. my question is with the daily driver its a bone stock fwd auto 91 talon it has the wimpy 390cc injectors and the wimpy but reliable 13g td04 which is nice but I came across the good deal with evo 3 and fic 650s and figured it would be nice for my daily to snuff it up a bit being the tsi will be track and Friday nigh car show car and the fwd daily is my every day beater Id like it to be a little more respectable in this matter my problem is I don't want to buy full v3 for this car. Looking around and asking the guy im buying from I will need something to compensate the larger injectors.. I read about apexi safc2 and not to thrilled about how it deals with timing but ecm link for this car is almost out of the question.. not totally but for now it is im on a tighter budget with this car being the tsi is a money hog... im really unsure of what to do . as in will the 650s play well with the evo 3? or can I get away with the 390s? (which id rather replace them) I don't plan on doing much more modding to this car except a fmic and maybe a walbro 255 in the future but am mainly hoping the evo turbo can be put on and the new injectors and what would be my best bet for tuning device or where could I send it to be reprogramed ? keep in mind the ecu in the auto is NOT an eprom any advise id appreciate and the sooner the better being im sending money for it tomorrow. could I get away with running smaller injectors with out tuning? this idea to me is kind of out their but wasn't sure if it can be done.. I do want the car to run right and run better just hoping someone can help me with this trying to read all the break down info about apexi is confusing to understand everything it does and the concept and im sure I could wire it in I am a mechanic but is their a better way or a cheaper way then link? thanks everyone in advance
 
Some people have luck with running 550cc injectors and a 2g maf in 1g cars with no tune. I ran this way for a couple months. Now I tune with tp.
 
I run 750s with my afc neo and that's the max of what it will handle. Do u have a wideband? Your car might run without it, but its not going to be pretty. There are some basic videos on YouTube about it.

I'm not sure how a AFC would work, the neo is quite a bit different. Mine has two throttle "maps" ( not really a map but they work). One for high throttle which is +50% throttle, and low throttle, which is -50% throttle input at your pedal. You are most likely going to be subtracting %.

But if u don't have a wideband, it's kinda like pissing in the wind bro to be honest, they are a essential. :pray:
 
Could always get a chipped burn for the injectors and the maf you have and everything else involved in your setup that the tuner would need to know. Could also have a less aggressive timing map installed. To really fine tune you could also had an afc. But like stated a wideband is deffinetly need regardless.
 
Keep in mind you have an auto ecu so youre even farther away from stock. Short answer is no. You need something else to tune. You want to play, you gotta pay.
 
Thanks for the answers guys I appriciate it by in the idea I a wide ban could bi install one with the ecu I have also the ecu on this car isn't the one that the car came with, I had my tsi EPROM in it or a bit when the ecu the car came with fried and it worked okay but it belongs in the tsi and is gonna be sent out for a chip soon so I bough a renamed auto ecu or so said it was but it works but I was undertow impression I could put a wide ban on the stock ecu?[DOUBLEPOST=1413851558][/DOUBLEPOST]If I could get the ecu chiped and have it flashed for the injectors and mas woul be awesome for me !! But is that possible to hae the conversion done and be flashed or get an EPROM ecu to be flashed for injectors and mas?
 
Thanks for the answers guys I appriciate it by in the idea I a wide ban could bi install one with the ecu I have also the ecu on this car isn't the one that the car came with, I had my tsi EPROM in it or a bit when the ecu the car came with fried and it worked okay but it belongs in the tsi and is gonna be sent out for a chip soon so I bough a renamed auto ecu or so said it was but it works but I was undertow impression I could put a wide ban on the stock ecu?[DOUBLEPOST=1413851558][/DOUBLEPOST]If I could get the ecu chiped and have it flashed for the injectors and mas woul be awesome for me !! But is that possible to hae the conversion done and be flashed or get an EPROM ecu to be flashed for injectors and mas?

If you get an eprom you can definitely just get a chip for the injectors and a different maf sensor. It should be pretty close to stock a/f ratio's with the bigger injectors, but sometimes they are a little off. It would be a good idea to have a wideband o2 sensor, and maybe an safc to do some fine tuning with if you go that route.
 
If you get an eprom you can definitely just get a chip for the injectors and a different maf sensor. It should be pretty close to stock a/f ratio's with the bigger injectors, but sometimes they are a little off. It would be a good idea to have a wideband o2 sensor, and maybe an safc to do some fine tuning with if you go that route.

That's very reasonable for what I wanna do but I have I ask can the wide ban work with the ecu like the stock one does? Also will the safc still need to be used ? I was hoping to avoid the timing issue with the safc, and I'm a little confuse about the idea of having safc and the reprogrammed ecu? I though the idea of a safc was to change the so flow readings of the maf to make te bigger injectors work? And if I get it flashed and reprogrammed why woul I need te safc?
 
That's very reasonable for what I wanna do but I have I ask can the wide ban work with the ecu like the stock one does? Also will the safc still need to be used ? I was hoping to avoid the timing issue with the safc, and I'm a little confuse about the idea of having safc and the reprogrammed ecu? I though the idea of a safc was to change the so flow readings of the maf to make te bigger injectors work? And if I get it flashed and reprogrammed why woul I need te safc?

You will need to mount the wideband in a different location than the stock because the stock is looking for a different signal, 0-1volt vs 0-5volt of the wideband. Some wideband controllers have a narroband output, but they usually don't work exactly right for the stock ecu. You will need to have a new bung welded into the exhaust somewhere. As for using the safc with a chip, you will likely need one just for fine tuning. The problems with timing come when you start taking out large amounts of fuel with bigger injectors to tune them. If the chip is tuned for your specific injectors than you won't need to take out a bunch with the safc. You will maybe be taking or adding 1-5 percent as where you would be taking 30+ percent out using it along to tune bigger injectors. The reason that the you will need to fine tune is because the injectors you have might flow slightly more or less than what the chip is tuned to. If you were to put the chip in, datalog and than resend the chip in with the log and get it retuned than you likely wouldn't need anything to fine tune, but that cost's a decent amount of money and has quite a bit of downtime. Other options are to just look for an older version of link, but a moates burn1 and burn your own chips, or to buy a moates ostrich and be able to tune directly to the ecu. You will need an eprom for all of these options.
 
You will need to mount the wideband in a different location than the stock because the stock is looking for a different signal, 0-1volt vs 0-5volt of the wideband. Some wideband controllers have a narroband output, but they usually don't work exactly right for the stock ecu. You will need to have a new bung welded into the exhaust somewhere. As for using the safc with a chip, you will likely need one just for fine tuning. The problems with timing come when you start taking out large amounts of fuel with bigger injectors to tune them. If the chip is tuned for your specific injectors than you won't need to take out a bunch with the safc. You will maybe be taking or adding 1-5 percent as where you would be taking 30+ percent out using it along to tune bigger injectors. The reason that the you will need to fine tune is because the injectors you have might flow slightly more or less than what the chip is tuned to. If you were to put the chip in, datalog and than resend the chip in with the log and get it retuned than you likely wouldn't need anything to fine tune, but that cost's a decent amount of money and has quite a bit of downtime. Other options are to just look for an older version of link, but a moates burn1 and burn your own chips, or to buy a moates ostrich and be able to tune directly to the ecu. You will need an eprom for all of these options.

thanks for all your input I am now trying to see if I cant get a v3 lite program seeing its probly my best option if I can ill go that route if not I will be getting a eprom ecu and seeing if I can find anyone who can reprogram it. any one you could point me to for it? also your sayong if I replace my O2 sensor I have to relocate it? even if im taking the old one out?
 
Your wideband is a totally different size than the factory 02 sensor. Dont worry it's not a huge deal to have the bung welded in. I went to my local only cost 20 bucks. Just find a good spot for it where u can easily route the wires. I went with innovate mtxl wideband, Been very happy with it. But I mounted mine in the pillar pod and they dont give u very much wire to work with for hooking up the actual gauge
 
your sayong if I replace my O2 sensor I have to relocate it? even if im taking the old one out?

The ECU needs the signal from the stock o2 sensor, you cant remove the stock o2 sensor unless you have a wideband that can send a simulated narrowband signal to the ECU. You can also do it with Ecmlink if your wideband only has a 0-5v output

Your wideband is a totally different size than the factory 02 sensor.

No its not it will fit in the stock location , its just not the recommended place for it.
 
The ECU needs the signal from the stock o2 sensor, you cant remove the stock o2 sensor unless you have a wideband that can send a simulated narrowband signal to the ECU. You can also do it with Ecmlink if your wideband only has a 0-5v output



No its not it will fit in the stock location , its just not the recommended place for it.

Can I ask what do you think or should I say how do you think it would run if I just used the evo turbo and bumped up to tsi stock 450s instead?
 
crap.. so basicly I risk going lean and melting down a motor.... never an easy way I suppose. well like in a early comment wana play gotta pay. can anyone point me to where v3 lite can be bought or who can program a 1g ecu? I tried contacting ecm link to ask their opinion and if they still sell v3lite but being on their site I don't see an option for lite anywhere nor can I find it anywhere for sale:confused: but anyone I can turn to who can put me to someone who can help or who can program a ecu would be helpful... and thanks again for everyone's responses has been very helpful:applause:
 
crap.. so basicly I risk going lean and melting down a motor.... never an easy way I suppose. well like in a early comment wana play gotta pay. can anyone point me to where v3 lite can be bought or who can program a 1g ecu? I tried contacting ecm link to ask their opinion and if they still sell v3lite but being on their site I don't see an option for lite anywhere nor can I find it anywhere for sale:confused: but anyone I can turn to who can put me to someone who can help or who can program a ecu would be helpful... and thanks again for everyone's responses has been very helpful:applause:

I would search for v2 or v2.5 if you can find a setup it should be pretty cheap. It doesn't have all the options of v3, but it can still give you a real good tune. You should put a wtb ad in the classifieds and see what happens.
 
that's a great idea have no clue why I didn't think of that my self.. LOL o well been so into searching to find and understand different setups guess it kind of slipped out of my head LOL.thanks bryanwheat I appreciate all the advise and your threads about safc I read earlier.. LOL a little confusing but it got the concept through to me. thanks again guys don't know what id do with out a forum with great knowledgeable people !!
 
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