I/H/E Bolt-ons; Runnin' Rich?

[PuNkShoO]

My car has been running rich since I got the engine rebuilt. When I first started adding bolt-ons I really didn't know too much but after spending months on these forums and 2gnt you tend to learn a little. However, I still am having a hard time determining what is causing my car to run rich. Ive added a CAI, 4-1 OBX style header, and a full 2.5" exhaust. I still get backfires when decelerating, my plugs foul quicker than I would like (white oxidation), smoke comes out of the exhaust with WOT but not when under normal driving conditions, and I've tried the blot test to see if there was oil in carbon on my bumper and no signs of oil. I was always under the impression that it isn't necessary to tune with these basic bolt-ons. If I am mistaken, please let me know, otherwise what else could be causing this issue? I have no vacuum leaks that I can find and the car idles perfectly fine. I just fear Im losing performance due to all the fuel not igniting. Ive also got my plugs gapped at .45; Used both Vpower and Iridiums. Any help would be awesome. Thanks in advance!

 

[canada4g63]

Get it tuned, i'm not to much into NT cars but your still adding more air into the motor, so i'm sure your A/F ratios are off.

 

[chadillac2820]

I would suggest a wideband so you can see what your afr actually is.

 

[Airsign89]

Do you have a wideband O2 to know in fact it is running rich? I get that people are into the idea of being able to "read" plugs, but I think it would be ideal to know exactly whats happening. Also when you did the exhaust work did you notice the condition of your stock o2 sensor and whether or not it was properly hooked back up? With those parts on an NA car you shouldn't run into serious driveabliity problems, the ECU has the ability to "deal" with those mods.
Edit: beat me to the punch on the wideband.

 

[jayson427]

If you were running rich you would your plugs would be black not white. White plugs mean your running lean. What all did you do with your rebuild? You normally don't tune if thats all you have done to the motor is just add ons. Have you reset your ecu? You might need a wideband tho.

 

[jayson427]

If you were running rich you would your plugs would be black not white. White plugs mean your running lean. What all did you do with your rebuild? You normally don't tune if thats all you have done to the motor is just add ons. Have you reset your ecu? You might need a wideband tho.

 

[PuNkShoO]

I just had a basic rebuild done on my engine when I first bought the car just so I could drive it. I wanted to do a performance build but the asshat mechanic kept trying to steer me away from anything performance related. After I sunk bunch of money into a basic rebuild I know better now. So in short: New cast pistons, cams, basic rebuild of the head, and new bearings and machined crank. I havent been able to get any specifics out of the guy. Ill be doing a build myself later down the road. Other than that its those basic bolt-ons I had mentioned. I supposed I had just deduced it was running rich by a break down of how plugs look under certain circumstances. Unfortunately Im still somewhat new to this. I supposed a wideband would tell me exactly what my AFR is? Also, being that my RS is a 98 would I need to go all out and get MS to tune or is the 95 ECU tunable for AFR?

[edit] Had no idea widebands were so pricey! Either way though I suppose Ill need to invest in one for the potential build coming in spring. Also, for the sake of AFR should I invest in an SAFC while Im running N/T or just put that money toward MS?

 

[jayson427]

You only would need ms if you were heavily modded. and ms v3 is 600 bucks, safc is more for turbo guys. Just get a wideband if your worried. Reset your ecu and keep investigating something is off. You shouldn't be running lean or rich with what you have done.

 

[PuNkShoO]

You shouldn't be running lean or rich with what you have done.

That's what I thought. I mean, like I said, she runs fine other than when I decelerate and she backfires occasionally. I changed the plugs today. I did seafoam a couple of days ago it smoothed out the rough idle and putting the new plugs in today seemed to give a little better response. We'll see tomorrow when I actually get to drive it.

 

[jayson427]

do you have a cat on your car or is it a resonator?? if you have no cat your car will get backfires because the downstream o2 sensor doesnt read normal exhaust gases like it would if you have a cat. if you have no cat then you need to put defoulers on your downstream o2 sensor then hook it back up. the defoulers pull the tip of the sensor back away from the gases but still close enough to read right and not get a bunch of carbon build up.

 

[PuNkShoO]

I opted to keep the cat for now for fear of the exhaust being too loud as the stock resonator was removed as well.

 

[Airsign89]

When you rebuilt the motor, wasn't everything hot tanked or similarly cleaned? Which would negate any benefits of seafoaming the motor, unless there were other reasons for such.
Edit: What I am getting at is why you would seafoam a freshly rebuilt motor.

 

[bullettdsm]

Get it tuned, i'm not to much into NT cars but your still adding more air into the motor, so i'm sure your A/F ratios are off.

How, pray tell, is he going to tune it? Maybe a little ECMlink? Nice pat answer .

As stated, there is no reason to seafoam a new rebuild.

As stated, if your plugs are coming out white, that is normally a lean condition.

As stated, you would need a wideband to verify what your afr's are.

As stated, the parts you put on should have no bearing on putting you way lean or way rich (except for you mentioned cams. What cams did you put on?)

As stated, I'm wondering about the front O2 sensor.

But here's the first question that should have been brought up; "are there any cels? If so, what are they?

MB

 

[PuNkShoO]

I seafoamed the entire system, not just the motor. I did the motor for giggles I guess you could say.

@Bulletdsm: No CELs, new front and rear O2 sensors just installed when I added the header. As for cams, like I said, Im getting nothing specific from him. If I had to guess Im sure he did OEM spec cams for the 420a since he didn't seem to want to do anything for me to gain performance.

Again, all the pictures on the net that are showing plugs with whitish residue on them as the filter being clogged or the fuel mixture is too high. I was only going by what I could find. Ill be ordering a wideband here shortly. Are the Innovates any good or should I just get the AEM? Also, what do you suggest for getting this baby tuned? MS? There are a couple of local shops out here in Tampa that will dyno tune it for me once I've got it installed.

 

[Spoolin92GSX]

You read the plug info right, but slightly misinterpreted it. A clogged fuel filter would cause "high" AFRatios, but a higher number means leaner. 14:1 for example is 14 parts air to 1 part fuel, 10:1 means 10 parts air to 1 part fuel making 10:1 richer. If you haven't done so it may benefit you to pull the negative battery cable to reset the ECU, and fuel filters are cheap insurance.

 

[PuNkShoO]

So I've been misunderstand AFR in the incorrect direction? So essentially Im actually running lean because I have more fuel than air? Hate mornings. My brain is still asleep, . Also, I reset the ECU yesterday when changing the plugs.

[edit] Jesus, Im understanding it. So 14:1 is good, 16:1 is lean, 8:1 is rich? Yes?

 

[jayson427]

honestly if you took your car to a dyno shop to get it tuned they would probably laugh you out of the shop. just trying to be real not a dick. you DONT need ms man. you can get it if you want to spend your money in the wrong direction. get an aem wideband and hook it up. go from there dont try and tune. you have no idea why your getting backfires at all. why would you just want to go tune it when you dont need to do that. you need to find out whats up with your afr then go from there.

 

[PuNkShoO]

Tuning would allow for me to maximize the AFR would it not? It also sounds like the next logical upgrade for an NA setup... though it wouldn't net as much performance as block, head, or intake work. The backfires aren't a huge concern. I only noticed it when I went out driving a long distance a couple of times last week when decelerating from the highway to the off-ramp. What bothers me the most is the slight smoke screen I get when I hard accelerate. As far as Im concerned Im going to need MS anyway if I plan on doing anything beyond what I've got going right now so it might be worth investing in. Or should I port the head, intake, and get the larger TB first? Just don't want to mod anymore if I've already got an issue.

On that note, if I get my wideband and find that I am running lean/rich, is there anything other than the normal maintenance stuff that would cause this?

 

[jayson427]

your getting oil out the exhaust some how then. do a compression check and see what you come up with. if its a fresh rebuild it shouldnt be smoking. blow-by is common with our engines but its hard to say.

 

[velocitytuner]

I just had a basic rebuild done on my engine when I first bought the car just so I could drive it. I wanted to do a performance build but the asshat mechanic kept trying to steer me away from anything performance related. After I sunk bunch of money into a basic rebuild I know better now. So in short: New cast pistons, cams, basic rebuild of the head, and new bearings and machined crank. I havent been able to get any specifics out of the guy. Ill be doing a build myself later down the road. Other than that its those basic bolt-ons I had mentioned. I supposed I had just deduced it was running rich by a break down of how plugs look under certain circumstances. Unfortunately Im still somewhat new to this. I supposed a wideband would tell me exactly what my AFR is? Also, being that my RS is a 98 would I need to go all out and get MS to tune or is the 95 ECU tunable for AFR?

[edit] Had no idea widebands were so pricey! Either way though I suppose Ill need to invest in one for the potential build coming in spring. Also, for the sake of AFR should I invest in an SAFC while Im running N/T or just put that money toward MS?

since this is a rebuild an some random asshat mechanic did it take it back to him an tell him to correct the problem he created.

 

[PuNkShoO]

I'd rather avoid confrontation. I already attempted to get an oil leak that was present after the rebuild and he seemed like he was too busy to honor his warranty. That and overall he seemed like a good guy and, like I said, I'd rather avoid confrontation.

 

[Spoolin92GSX]

I'd rather avoid confrontation. I already attempted to get an oil leak that was present after the rebuild and he seemed like he was too busy to honor his warranty. That and overall he seemed like a good guy and, like I said, I'd rather avoid confrontation.

F**k that, if someone mucked up a rebuild for me (with a warranty) I'd be down his throat to get it right. Doesn't matter if they're a nice guy, nice doesn't mean skilled - everyone makes mistakes.

And it sounds like you're getting the hang of AFRatios, the higher the number the leaner; lower the number the richer. 14.7:1 is known as "stoich" and more or less the ideal cruising/idling ratio. Hard acceleration calls for more fuel, but I don't know what N/T cars like for that. Like everyone else has said though, you shouldn't need MS or an SAFC to get your car running right; I had a 420A years ago with I/H/E and it ran fine.

I would either take it back to the asshat and torture him until he corrects his work, or find a quality mechanic that'll have some mercy.

 

[phunny]

What did you pay for the rebuild?

 

[PuNkShoO]

2200 for engine and 800 for tranny rebuild. Come spring I'm going to be looking for a solid mechanic locally to either do a 420a turbo setup, EDZ turbo swap, or 6g73 swap. Another reason I'm not willing to fight this guy. Already tried to get him to do something and was told the engine is fine and to keep the oil up and bring it back in 2 weeks. Called him 2 weeks later and got hung up on. Decided he wasn't worth wasting my time with. Also, I moved so the shop is about an hour away. Not to mention he took a month and a half to rebuild in the first place. Really wary about dealing with him. The downtime was a huge inconvenience.

 

[PuNkShoO]

I'd love to work on a build myself but I don't have a garage to use to get the project done. Really takes the fun out of it. That and if something is messed up you know who did it and don't have to sit around thinking about somebody doing a shoddy job to your baby.