The 16g Drag Race Discussion Thread

[forcefed86]

From the dyno sheets, it appears to have completely taken away the 16g's infamous "hit". Lost alot of low and midrange for more peak.

Isnt that what any big smim would do?

The giant "hit" is caused by a spike when running the 16g to the max. Has little to do with the IM. As H82lose91 said, he was WG regulated to around 24psi. If he was spiking to 35+ the "hit" would be very noticable.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Nate,
Your last statement pretty much summed up my setup. My setup was not a stock 1g motor with a 16g slapped on it. So yes in my case the intake manifold was the restriction (SMIC aside). 9:1 compression, ported head, 1mm over valves, S2 cams, FP Race mani. Everything was paired together to move air. We knew we would see a gain up top with the intake, what we didnt expect to see was the gains down low. And i think thats where this discussion was kinda at. I didnt believe it either but you could definitely feel it in the car and then the dyno proved it. This was pretty much unheard of in the dsm community in relation to intakes up until this point. Marcos new intake show the same sort of gains and on larger turbo cars.

Ill have to try and dig up those logs, i had back to back excel graphs showing boost, afr, and timing for both runs as I knew back then the results would need to be qualified since the results were what they were.

And hey lets be honest, tuning and parts selection has everything to do with achieving great numbers for a given setup. I was big into drag racing back then, now being up in Va hitting the twisties in the mountains is way more fun. Although the Tq makes things a little sketchy sometimes!

The blue plot (w/ hawver) look exactly like I would expect for 16g car w/ regulated boost and aftermarket top end parts. Balanced HP/TQ ratio and a longer power band up top. The jagged red plot and low ultimate torque are my main concerns. With the same setup as above, but stock IM, it "shoulda" made more torque and fallen off sooner, but more than anything, it should be just as smooth.


Id REALLY like to see those excel spreadsheets/logs as my gut is still telling me that your stock manifold pulls are still down on torque for some reason. I would expect significantly MORE peak torque than peak HP with a stock 1g intake manifold, regardless of cams, head porting, and larger valves. 372whp with only 356ftlb seems backwards compared to all the 16g equipped DSM and Evo's Iv seen over the years that make significantly more torque than hp.

While the part selection might be a well matched system as far as airflow is concerned, the tune/fuel/boost certainly isn't. At 24psi regulated boost, you have airflow to spare for the majority of your rpm range, which as I mentioned in a previous thread, will show as a power gain when base engine VE is increased. When the turbocharger is maxed out for airflow with a given head/cam/intake package, it is my belief that increases in base engine VE are diminished in return. This dyno comparison does not show that situation because the boost is being limited to a sub-choke level, thus there is airflow to spare.

Had you been running the turbocharger at it's absolutely choke limit for the entire pull (spiking to 35-37psi and letting it fall off to whatever the compressor can push) ...no boost controller and octane/tuning to match: I don't believe you would see much difference between intake manifolds. I still believe an E3 or stock 1g intake manifold will produce more torque from 3500-4750rpm range in that specific situation (turbocharger running off the map at it's absolute choke flow level). IE: I would expect my 14b equipped 1g (if it was dyno'd with manual trans) to put down well over 335ftlb of torque around 4000rpm, but only make about 275whp (if that) when running the turbo flat out at all rpm and would expect that peak hp down around 6000rpm (even with ported head, GSC S2 cams, ect).


PLEASE don't take this as me trying to be an argumentative dick who is out to bash you. This is an interesting subject and Im very serious about parsing information regarding part selection and it's relation to tuning and setup. I'm not bagging on your car/setup at all, Im simply trying to figure out WHY this dyno comparison doesn't line up with the thinking and results that many have had before. As you said, this flies in the face of conventional wisdom that short running/big plenum intake manifolds give up torque in exchange for top end. Proof is in the pudding, but only when we can scrutinize the parameters of the test. A couple degrees of timing, 1psi of boost, and a half point of AFR can skew the results and mislead us.



And a correction to myself: that Magnus intake is $800+ not $700 as previously stated. ($800 buys a 2g head, E3 intake manifold, AND a nitrous kit)

 

[H82lose91]

No worries Nate, i know the manifold worked for my setup and my goals. I wanted a daily driver 16g car that would go 11.3@125. Last time out before ditching the maftpro it went 124 and change. I do feel the car was lacking some lower end grunt but i noticed that after i swapped to the fp exh manifold, not that the intake wasnt contributing down the road. The goal was to make up for where the 16g fails and thats up top.

One thing i can tell you, timing was not aggressive at all on either pull i dont remember peak tq timing numbers but it was only like 15* out the top. Thats conservative timing on pumpgas alone. When we dyno'd we werent trying to break any records. Just show what the intake would do on this type of setup.

Only thing i found stashed away from then was a jpg of the boost portion of the pulls. Which looking at the date was over 3 years ago ! Surprised that was even still on this computer. PM me your email and ill send it over.

 

[k7-1ktrevor]

sick thread, hoping to hit some high 11's with my 16g car.

 

[OstarMotorsport]

the extrude honed 1g intake manifold with the 1g head should work pretty well depending on the cam you mate it with. I do believe the 2g head with the evo3 might give it a bit of an edge but not enough to go through the trouble of changing from a 1g setup. I could be wrong but just my 2 cents.

As far as the pumps go, I used a single pt341 and made 600whp for a few months before I need to make more power and had to get the 2nd one installed. might be a good option for this type of setup

 

[turboglenn]

I'm gona chang topic a bit and ask if any of you 16g guys are running a cyclone intake at all/ I have one and am about to take off my 67mm turbo to play with a 16g for a little while now that i made the swap tpo AWD. and i was wanting to put on the cyclone to broaden the powerband even further as that's my main goal in playing with the 16g is to make the broadest flatest (as well as highest) amount of power i can on this smaller turbo..
i would love to see 375hp and 380 tq with tq peaking out at 3600 and hp at ~7000 just broad and flat, should be fun (those numbers are just spit out for concversation sake, so no flaming please) i just wanna play with the smaller turbo and see how i like it, so i've been reading on here but the bickering gets old trying to weed through it

 

[GDNF2ET]

I believe Lucas English also ran an extrude honed 1g intake and 1g head. He had some great 16g times. One of the main reasons I didnt bother swapping over.

The intake Lucas used on his Evo16g car is a stock 1g, not an extrude hone 1g..
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/335310-10-6-125-evoiii-16g-awd-auto.html

I have the same opinion about the hawver: short runner/big plenum is going to lose far more bottom end than it gains up top with regard to 14b/16g use. It's a mismatch for the total airflow capability and rpm range that turbo size works in.

16g w/N2O record: Joe Bucci - 1G FWD Evo3 16g
9.975 @ 141.35
- 1.569 60' 6.501 @ 108.65mph

I'm surprised that it hasn't come up that this record was done with a Hawver intake..
It can't be too bad of a combination....

 

[Mr4G]

Ostar, you said you used a single pump setup, was that with e85, pump or race gas? Also, lets discuss the use of an external wastegate on a 16g. If someone were to take their wastegate flapper off, and put on an o2 housing with an external wastegate mated up to it, what would be the advantages and disadvantages to doing that?

 

[forcefed86]

the extrude honed 1g intake manifold with the 1g head should work pretty well depending on the cam you mate it with. I do believe the 2g head with the evo3 might give it a bit of an edge but not enough to go through the trouble of changing from a 1g setup. I could be wrong but just my 2 cents.

As far as the pumps go, I used a single pt341 and made 600whp for a few months before I need to make more power and had to get the 2nd one installed. might be a good option for this type of setup

Was this on factory fuel lines? Base pressure? Injectors used? I already had a TT supra pump so I ended up using it. The PT-341's seem blow everything else out of the water in that price range. Don't hear about them much though. Great info... thanks!

The intake Lucas used on his Evo16g car is a stock 1g, not an extrude hone 1g..
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/335310-10-6-125-evoiii-16g-awd-auto.html

Pretty sure in one of those threads there was mention of that manifold being extrude honed... I know the record 456hp 16g dyno used an extrude honed intake. I may have gotten the two confused.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/338802-456whp-evo-iii-16g.html

 

[streetdsmpwr]

Pretty sure in one of those threads there was mention of that manifold being extrude honed… I know the record 456hp 16g dyno used an extrude honed intake. I may have gotten the two confused.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/338802-456whp-evo-iii-16g.html

I thought the record was Curt Brown's 499 hp and 469 tq

 

[e85_4g63]

I thought the record was Curt Brown's 499 hp and 469 tq

Putting Curt Brown in there as a contender, is like putting a magician against Jesus.... You get the point (no offense to Christian people).

 

[forcefed86]

I thought the record was Curt Brown's 499 hp and 469 tq

Your right...but I didn't say the #1 record holder. I suppose I could have worded it better. 456 is up there on the 16g record list. Not that it's relevant to the point being made anyway...

 

[GDNF2ET]

Pretty sure in one of those threads there was mention of that manifold being extrude honed… I know the record 456hp 16g dyno used an extrude honed intake. I may have gotten the two confused.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/338802-456whp-evo-iii-16g.html

My mistake...I never saw that thread..Thanks for posting it..There sure is alot of information to keep up with...

 

[forcefed86]

No prob... also I believe Lucas tested out the magnus intake on his maxed out evo OEM turbo setup. As Nate stated... not much gain between them all.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/335310-10-6-125-evoiii-16g-awd-auto.html

#24

I have tested quite a few on the dyno. On my 522whp 10.8 16g EVO I tested 3 intakes and the Magnus cast is the only one that gained and it was only 5hp on my 16g combo. I feel the Hawver might be the only one. But tying to buy one is impossible. We have been trying to buy one for 6mons now.

 

[GDNF2ET]

No prob... also I believe Lucas tested out the magnus intake on his maxed out evo OEM turbo setup. As Nate stated... not much gain between them all.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/335310-10-6-125-evoiii-16g-awd-auto.html

#24

That thread is too old for him to be talking about the V3 cast Magnus..
A good read if you haven't already..The computer flow graph shows near perfect distribution..
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/ven...nus-v3-cast-manifold-pre-release-special.html

 

[Nate Crisman]

That thread is too old for him to be talking about the V3 cast Magnus..

Here is the full quote from Lucas English regarding intake manifolds on a full tile maxed out 16g:

I have tested quite a few on the dyno. On my 522whp 10.8 16g EVO I tested 3 intakes and the Magnus cast is the only one that gained and it was only 5hp on my 16g combo.

I feel the Hawver might be the only one. But tying to buy one is impossible. We have been trying to buy one for 6mons now.

This car makes 402whp through the Auto. Which would be close to 450whp through a 5spd. Curts car was right at 500whp through a 5spd which I know I can come close to with a 10:1 motor and a electric water pump.

He specifically says it was the cast magnus intake manifold, remember, that has been out for the evo8 well before it came out for the 1g head. Granted, he was testing a maxed out Evo8 style 16g with the small port evo head (kinda like 2g head) on a (I believe) a fairly high compression engine.


Here is an example of what I would consider a typical ratio of hp to tq production on a 16g car equipped with an oem 1g intake manifold, 272 cams, and a stock head & shortblock. Boost 40psi falling to 26psi:

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This E3 16g combo makes ~450whp but over 500ft-lb of torque at the wheels with the turbo running flat out max boost. The turbo makes peak power at 5500rpm, this car would likely run fastest short shifting it at 6750 or so and riding the huge torque curve instead of running out more rpm and going farther past peak power. In THIS situation, I don't believe the intake manifold choice makes very much of a difference in overall power. If it simply shifts the dyno plot to the right and you end up with the same area under the curve, it's somewhat moot. And if the turbocharger is already at choke flow rate, I maintain that increasing the engine VE won't show very much power gain.

 

[Phil1320]

In my uneducated opinion, this is drag racing, not road racing, so you start at WOT and you end at WOT. Any intake manifold will work and make big power. There's still intercooler piping(in most cases) or an intake pipe. With the butterfly open in the throttle body, you need to consider the total length starting at the turbo's outlet. All this talk of mid-range power and power peak doesn't really have any relevance whatsoever in drag racing. I'd assume most people are launching under boost with a studderbox. So, we are at WOT from start to finish. It's been established, and proven by Joe B., that even though short runner intakes and 272, 280 cams etc. are not mods that generally work in the "16g powerband, " they STILL MAKE POWER. It's not like once you're out of the PEAK area, the power just dissappears into thin air. You either make a shift, or wind out a gear.....in my experience, making an upshift has ALWAYS LOST ME ET, rather than winding the hell out of a gear- EVEN THOUGH I'm OUT OF THE "SWEET SPOT."

So, we can, or you 16g guys can go around and around in circles wasting time about what intake is the best.....if you NEED that last 5 hp. Or, you can bolt any intake on(or just keep the 1G intake that works EVERYWHERE)and make big power and run good numbers.

This intake convo is much more relevant in a Road Racing Discussion where you actually see 3000-5000 rpm regularly......

.....and on that note Dejontool used to make an intake that appeared as though it would be best in the small turbo arena.

My piddly .02

 

[Nate Crisman]

In my uneducated opinion, this is drag racing, not road racing, so you start at WOT and you end at WOT. Any intake manifold will work and make big power. There's still intercooler piping(in most cases) or an intake pipe. With the butterfly open in the throttle body, you need to consider the total length starting at the turbo's outlet. All this talk of mid-range power and power peak doesn't really have any relevance whatsoever in drag racing. I'd assume most people are launching under boost with a studderbox. So, we are at WOT from start to finish. It's been established, and proven by Joe B., that even though short runner intakes and 272, 280 cams etc. are not mods that generally work in the "16g powerband, " they STILL MAKE POWER. It's not like once you're out of the PEAK area, the power just dissappears into thin air. You either make a shift, or wind out a gear.....in my experience, making an upshift has ALWAYS LOST ME ET, rather than winding the hell out of a gear- EVEN THOUGH I'm OUT OF THE "SWEET SPOT."

So, we can, or you 16g guys can go around and around in circles wasting time about what intake is the best.....if you NEED that last 5 hp. Or, you can bolt any intake on(or just keep the 1G intake that works EVERYWHERE)and make big power and run good numbers.

This intake convo is much more relevant in a Road Racing Discussion where you actually see 3000-5000 rpm regularly......

.....and on that note Dejontool used to make an intake that appeared as though it would be best in the small turbo arena.

My piddly .02

I pretty much agree, Iv said it at least 5 times already, I feel the intake manifold and cams are of minor importance with a maxed out turbo. It's a small change in overall power and NET total area under the curve in the RPM band utilized going down the dragstrip.

The only thing I don't agree totally on is the "wind it out" comment always losing ET. I think if you were running the 14b without boost regulation, you would find that you can shift earlier and not lose any ET. If I remember correctly, your red car ran about 21-22psi of regulated boost. Turn the spike up to 28-29 and let it fall back to 21 anyway and you now have a huge bottom end surge with the same top end.

My GVR4 was setup that way with the 14b (only got 12.0@111 out of it HEAVY). In that car I was shifting at about 6100-6200rpm. If I ran it out further, it lost mph and ET. I ran it out to 7000 in every gear one run just to see and I think it only went like 108.8mph. It was definitely quicker/faster utilizing the huge boost spike rather than wringing it out to 7000rpm where it was down to under 20psi. That was racegas, stock head/cams/intake/shortblock and everything else typical. Had I regulated the boost down to flat 20psi it might have needed to be revved out, but might have been 1mph slower? If I added 272 cams, a SMIM intake....maybe It would have gone 11.9@113?

Granted, thats a 14b with even less top end than a 16g. 16G makes the ideal rpm range a little higher and longer and probably less of an important issue to find the exact perfect rpm range to run the engine in. 16G should be a little more flexible in the driving/shifting since it spools just as fast (drag racing wise) but holds out up top. With a 14b one really needs to ride the best rpm range and make the best of what little power it has.

 

[Mr4G]

A lot of good information is coming out of this discussion, lets not getting into a pissing match about what is right and what is wrong and weather a million people have proved a million things, were here to discuss it, this way any member who looks in this thread can make an educated decision about how they want to set their car up according to the information we have all contributed!

 

[canada4g63]

Glad to see 16g in the 10's all day. What Lucas did was just amazing. Wish I had a auto for the wife to drive.

 

[OstarMotorsport]

Ostar, you said you used a single pump setup, was that with e85, pump or race gas? Also, lets discuss the use of an external wastegate on a 16g. If someone were to take their wastegate flapper off, and put on an o2 housing with an external wastegate mated up to it, what would be the advantages and disadvantages to doing that?

when I had the single pump I'm pretty sure i was still on e85 but i switched to
e98.

Was this on factory fuel lines? Base pressure? Injectors used? I already had a TT supra pump so I ended up using it. The PT-341's seem blow everything else out of the water in that price range. Don't hear about them much though. Great info... thanks!




Pretty sure in one of those threads there was mention of that manifold being extrude honed... I know the record 456hp 16g dyno used an extrude honed intake. I may have gotten the two confused.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/338802-456whp-evo-iii-16g.html

That was on -6 feed and -6 return using the JMF fuel cell
Injectors were FIC2150's with 43 psi base pressure

Jayracing sent it to me on late 2010 and I tried it out and gave him the results. The pump has performed extremely well and being able to supply enough fuel to run 600whp on ethanol is simply outstanding. If you need one let me know.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Got the car back out today with the trans freshened up and ECMlink V3 instead of AEM. The first pass was a 10.7 at 125 really rich. Ran out of fuel so I switched over to the ethanol mix. 10.39 at 132 with a lousy 1.53. That was the best run for the day. I'll get it back out again next week perhaps.

 

[FonZ454]

Is nobody racing 16g's this year?

3 weeks ago I went 10.96 and 10.98 with mine.... and now it's sitting in the garage.

 

[pneumo]

I always feel like I can squeeze more out of a turbo. Unfortunately the turbo is usually sold and gone by the time I come up with more ideas to squeeze more out of it.
I sold my 16G several months ago.
Maybe I'll come back to it, but for now I have another turbo waiting on the bench. I'm going to push it and see what I learn from it and maybe those lessons can be applied to small turbos and drop the times even more.

BTW, nice times Fonz! Getting a 16G into the tens is elite territory!

 

[Dsmkauai]

I'm still running my small 16g this year. So far my best is 12.82@110 and my best 60' is 1.86. I'm running with all mods in my profile and am throwing in some bc272 cams this week. Im not switching to my holset till I run a 12.6-7 on this setup. And I think as of now I have the fastest 2g fwd dsm on a small 16g at least from what I can tell from the times on here. Looks like only a 1g laser stands in my way an he ran 12.65 I think, so to match that or better would be sick. Here's me and my friends Evo battling it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcQcld_mnDg&feature=youtube_gdata_player