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Piston and rod recommendation for 700-900hp

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DemonDSM

Probationary Member
8
0
Oct 7, 2002
AlabamaUS
Ok Ive been out of the loop for a while b/c of my baby. Let me sum it up I have a 92talon with JE pistons 9.0:1 and eagle rods. I dynoed it and ended up burning up piston number 3. Dont ask it was a stupid error why. But Anyways I pretty much wanted to upgrade to a piston and rod setup that will holdup to 900. Any recommendations?
 
I'm going with Grp rods and a set of custom ordered Weisco. Should hold 600hp easy. Also Arias pistons have been proven as well.

Damn man I thought I was bad. You have been on here since 2002 and have one post GEEZ!!
 
What you have is good, Eagle H-beam Rod is good for 900hp and JE are very good pistons but 9:1 pistons are very hard to tune. It take perfection but it can do it it will be superb otherwise I suggest you go 8.3 or 8.5:1.
 
Well, I would probably have to go with the Eagle rod/Ross ceramic-coated piston setup as mine has been without a problem for years and has been proven to over 1000HP.

Just my reccomendation though.
 
My Stroker is getting built with Pauter X-beams and Ross racing pistons and i am shooting for a street-able 500hp or 11.5 quarter. Even though i should be able to push the limits on this motor far passed 700hp. But i am sure twicks69 would not lead you down a wrong path to build a great motor. In many cases i think it could just be better to get a new set of pistons and use the rods again but then you are looking for 900 so i would replace them just for a piece of mind.

Just my .02 cents
 
holy shit! I didn't think I was gonna get these many replies I thought I wad actually gonna get fried for destroyin some je pistons. I was pricin the groden rods but buscher pretty much let it be known that if I plan on drivin on the street forget it. I appreciate the help so far guys thanx.
 
The only thing with aluminum rods is you need to check the rod bolt stretch every few thousand miles and replace if they stretch too much. Forget about what buschur told you. There are a few guys on dsmlink forum with aluminum rods and over 10,000 miles on them with the same rod bolts that came with them. The aluminum rods will also help your rod bearings last longer. There's no reason to not drive an aluminum rod motor on the street unless you don't want to check the rod bolt stretch every few thousand miles. The days when you couldn't run an aluminum rod motor for very long are gone due to new technology.

When I build my motor I will be using Groden rods and mahle pistons.
 
You can run aluminum rods on the street but I think what Buschur meant is that the average guy will never check the rod bolts every 3k miles on a street car. Standard eagle rods are really rated at around the 650 -700 mark. If you are looking for something that will hold up to a little more abuse we offer our eagle rods with a cryogenic treatment that will allow you a little more breathing room if you do make it a little over the 700hp mark. The rods are on sale right now and the cryo treatment is an extra $30 over the standard untreated rods.

Wayne
 
The Groden rods are very nice pieces, but are a little overkill for a street car of this nature.

While I really like aluminum rods, I would push you in this direction though, as it will make for a more reliable/less maintenence setup:

The rod choices I would look at are the following in no specific order:
*Eagle H-Beam Rods (575 grams=6-bolt, 550 grams 7-bolt) $339.00
*Crower I-Beam Rods $689.00
*Carillo A-Beam Rods (520 grams each) $880.00
*Tomei H-Beam Rods $970.00
*Manley H- Beam Rods $359.00
*Manley Turbo-TUF I-Beam Rods $750.00
*Pauter X-Beam Rods $875.00

The piston choices I would have are sortof in order:
*ROSS Pistons*** 8.5:1, 352 grams each, $440.00
*Mahle Pistons 250 grams each!!, $515.00
*Manley Pistons 8.5:1 $400.00
*Wiseco Pistons 9.0:1, 330-360 grams each depending on version, $440.00

I also believe in the usage of ceramic coating, so I would look into FFWD Connection for the "S.O.B." ceramic coating on the skirts and domes of the pistons, as well as Swain Technologies has excellent experience in ceramic coating.

I also believe in the usage of cryo-treatment for important parts. I would cryo the piston rings, rod bearings, wrist pins, main bearings, rods and crank for extra protection and longevity with reduced wear and friction. In the past, I have had my cryo-treatment done through Beyond Redline Performance or FFWD Connection.

As for the prices above, they were just a fast number from one or two sites; they are in no way the lowest price I could find.

If you want the craziest, lightest weight, most expensive, highest maintenence setup, I would go with a Groden Aluminum Rod and a Ross or Mahle Piston Setup (The Mahle's are much lighter, but have a high silica percentage, leaving them a bit more fragile under detonation). I am looking at this direction this winter. I am expecting that it will end up costing around $1800-2000 for the rods, pistons, bearings, coatings and cryo-treatment; along with another $700-1200 depending on what I end up doing with an Eagle crank -->That is a large chunk of change to put down on a rotating assembly.

If you want a cost effective, light-weight, low maintenence setup that is capable of supporting 1000HP, then I would look at the Eagle Rod/ Ross Piston combo, or an Eagle/Wiseco combo. Personally, I like Ross over Wiseco, but they are both proven performers with very good track records.

Good luck,
 
You can run aluminum rods on the street but I think what Buschur meant is that the average guy will never check the rod bolts every 3k miles on a street car. Standard eagle rods are really rated at around the 650 -700 mark. If you are looking for something that will hold up to a little more abuse we offer our eagle rods with a cryogenic treatment that will allow you a little more breathing room if you do make it a little over the 700hp mark. The rods are on sale right now and the cryo treatment is an extra $30 over the standard untreated rods.

Wayne

Eagle says the Mitsubishi rods are good to 1,000 horsepower. http://www.eaglerod.com/2008 Eagle catalog.pdf Go to page 81.
 
I know the catalog says 1000 hp but we have built a couple motors now that have hit really close to that mark and we didn't use eagle rods. They have been proven reliable between 650-700 hp but if you have the money to build a true 1000 hp motor I would recommend putting in a little better connecting rod for the fact that it's cheap insurance. You don't wanna be the guy that finds out that an eagle rod didn't quite make it. If you get a cryo treated set of eagle rods they will be reliable towards the 800 hp mark which still says a lot for the price. Really it just depends on your actual hp goals for the engine.
 
Eagle rods will not hold that power. Maybe on a dynojet dream meter. Ask me how I know LOL.
 
wt71gas said:
I know the catalog says 1000 hp but we have built a couple motors now that have hit really close to that mark and we didn't use eagle rods. They have been proven reliable between 650-700 hp but if you have the money to build a true 1000 hp motor I would recommend putting in a little better connecting rod for the fact that it's cheap insurance. You don't wanna be the guy that finds out that an eagle rod didn't quite make it. If you get a cryo treated set of eagle rods they will be reliable towards the 800 hp mark which still says a lot for the price. Really it just depends on your actual hp goals for the engine.

You said they were rated at 650-700hp. I was just pointing out what they rate them at and not what people have made with them.

starion4g63 said:
Eagle rods will not hold that power. Maybe on a dynojet dream meter. Ask me how I know LOL.

1,000hp rating means at the flywheel, not at the wheels like you are talking about.
 
Well, I would trust an Eagle rod on a properly tuned car to over 800AWHP; maybe I am biased, but it has easily held over 750AWHP and over 700TQ SAE uncorrected on an AWD dyno with a safe tune at only 44-38psi of boost (peak and then dropping off). The reason we didn't push it further was because the turbo was falling off of boost pressure -- it later snapped its shaft due to extended high boost/high rpm abuse on the dyno. 800AWHP is definitely obtainable on a GT4088R with a well tuned setup. This ends up around 1000AWHP SAE, and a bit over on STP numbers.

Alex, don't get me wrong, I am not arguing with you whatsoever, it is just my experiences and we are definitely allowed to have our personal opinions. I would likely go with another rod had I originally known that my horsepower levels were ever going to hit this proportion. I originally built the motor 3 years ago for 600whp with a GT35 setup, not 800AWHP on a GT4088R setup.

Personally, it is not worth getting into a pissing match over what the rod can handle for this guy's application, as we have absolutely no pertinent information about his setup other than the fact that there was a problem with tuning on a Eagle/JE setup.

If we had a complete list of modifications, and power goals within reason, it would help in properly helping this person decide which application is right for him.

From what is sounds like, all we know is that this is a street car. Thats it.
 
I'm glad this came up. I bought a set of eagle H-beams a while back, but wasn't sure what they were actually rated at. There were a few threads a while back about some Evo making a little over 700Whp and everyone made a big deal about it because they were using h-beams.

I personally probably wouldn't take them over 700whp, because it kind of seems to be hit and miss with them. Some people say sure why not and push them to 800whp. Thats all fine and dandy, but IMO Like Wayne said i dont want to be the guy that finds out what my set of H-beams are good for.

If i were you DemonDSM, i would play it safe and go with something thats rated to handle the abuse. Sure h-beams could probly do it, but they say 700-800 and you are looking for 700-900 (which it quite a large gap). Maby you will hit 900 who knows, but why be stuck with a rod that is at the bottom of your Hp range you are aiming for, get something thats good for 900 no questions asked.

I would say the Groden's. Because you probably arn't going to be driving this on the street so checking for stretch probly wont be that huge of a deal

Not to go off topic, but wail we are on ratings and everyone has a different opinion. What would you guys say that the oem 2.4 crank for a stroker is good up to?
 
Well, it depends on its condition. There are several people on here running high HP cars on an OEM crank. My crank was lightened a bit by FFWD Connection ("Butchered"), but has held up with no problems at the same HP levels as the Eagle rods.

Not to go off topic, but wail we are on ratings and everyone has a different opinion. What would you guys say that the oem 2.4 crank for a stroker is good up to?
 
Ahh, I've been wanting to get my crank "butchered" for a while now. Did you notice a big difference? Ya i wasn't sure about that rating on that. For some reason i remembered reading only about 600, but i guess you proved that one wrong.
Thanks
 
Ahh, I've been wanting to get my crank "butchered" for a while now. Did you notice a big difference? Ya i wasn't sure about that rating on that. For some reason i remembered reading only about 600, but i guess you proved that one wrong.
Thanks

Well, it makes the crank "jump-rope" a bit under high boost/high rpm use, causing you to wear out the main bearings quicker than a non-cut-counterweight crank. Sure, it revs a heck of alot faster with 8# off of the crank, but it is probably worth using a good uncut crank for the street or an Eagle crank for anything over 800-1000+HP.
 
Well, it makes the crank "jump-rope" a bit under high boost/high rpm use, causing you to wear out the main bearings quicker than a non-cut-counterweight crank. Sure, it revs a heck of alot faster with 8# off of the crank, but it is probably worth using a good uncut crank for the street or an Eagle crank for anything over 800-1000+HP.

Bummer, I'm aiming to land somewhere in between 500-600whp so i dont have to worry about going over 800-1000 heh. The quicker rev's was very appealing to me, but i didn't realize if would be at the cost of bearings. you are also talking about a lot more power than Im going for, i am going to be running a 2.3L which means i cant rev to 10k like the 2.0's Shouldn't that lessen my chances of the high rpm problems you mentioned? It is going to be a street vehicle though, You think i would be better off just running it Uncut?
 
Guys listen take this for what it is. I happen to like eagle rods. Ran them in my own car for years. The last 10 motors this month we have done where with eagle rods.

Now as for the power handling. As we know there is two variables here. 1 being how to measure hp. We dsm/evo owners dont like to exaggerate our hp. The standard for years has bin whp. Dynos read all over the place. that’s why there are guys with 750+ whp that cant brake 150mph in a 2600lb car. Yet we have a customer at 2780 with driver that made 667hp on a mustang dyno go 153mph.

Metal fatigues and no two peaces are identical. So we have to use an average. Can and have people made 750+ with eagle rods. Yes but it is a time bomb. We have seen not 1 not 2 but many fail around the 750+ whp mark.

Getting back to the rods . They are a great bang for the buck. We use them all the time.. Lets just say with whp at around or over 750 mustang dyno hp they will fail at sum point. Read not bullet proof (not that anything is)LOL.

Btw almost all aftermarket pistons wiseco, ross, je, etc. will handle all the power your hearts desire. Now the wrist pins that’s a new subject.
 
Anyone ever snap a H beam rod because of hp not because of some other sort of engine failure? I hear this all the time about how this rod is rated to 1000hp but I wouldn't go over 700hp or whatever but have yet to hear somebody go yeah don't go h beam for this kinda power I have broken a h-beam at x power. I'm trying to make this kinda power with my new setup and was looking at a kit much like twicks that they sell online for like 1500 for parts and I would have a local shop machine and balance it for me but with everyone saying H beams aren't good past 700 or 800whp it's like do you take the risk and trust that twicks engine is more norm than the exception or do you dime up and go I beam or something better.

I'm not worried about the crank because I' plan on building a stroker setup using a eagle crank but the rod is the big ? in the equation. I would love to run a aluminum stroker setup like jake did but I keep hearing about clearance issues.
 
Anyone ever snap a H beam rod because of hp not because of some other sort of engine failure? I hear this all the time about how this rod is rated to 1000hp but I wouldn't go over 700hp or whatever but have yet to hear somebody go yeah don't go h beam for this kinda power I have broken a h-beam at x power. I'm trying to make this kinda power with my new setup and was looking at a kit much like twicks that they sell online for like 1500 for parts and I would have a local shop machine and balance it for me but with everyone saying H beams aren't good past 700 or 800whp it's like do you take the risk and trust that twicks engine is more norm than the exception or do you dime up and go I beam or something better.

I'm not worried about the crank because I' plan on building a stroker setup using a eagle crank but the rod is the big ? in the equation. I would love to run a aluminum stroker setup like jake did but I keep hearing about clearance issues.


There is usually clearancing required for running any aftermarket rod in a stroker application -- it isn't terrible, but you do need to take it into account. Groden's and other aluminum rods are much beefier in size and need additional clearancing and oil pan denting. That is part of the game we play.

As for my motor, I wouldn't say that it is the "norm", as I am one of few that has tried, and my motor has lasted for over 3 race seasons with continuous abuse.

Trust what you want, but you will need to man up and just try what you think is a good combination and either prove it to be good or bad based on your own experiences and tuning.

Either way, in my application, I have had very good luck with the Eagle/Ross combo for several reasons -- the first key reasons was alot of research, proper engine building, and a major amount of detail for every aspect of my setup.

The second key reasons for the Eagle rod in the 7-bolt motor is the fact that they are one of the lightest steel rods on the market for a 7-bolt, and the H-beam design is decent for the high amounts of side load and compression load while its weight reduces the inertial load that is seen with the 1.5 rod ratio of the 2.3L stroker (stock length rods with a stroker piston and a 4G64 2.4L 100mm-stroke crank). Using the strongest and lightest H-beam rod would be the key thing to look at when using a steel rod in a stroker.

Unfortunately a negative side affect of using a steel rod in the 1.5-rod ratio engine is that there is a much higher level of side load friction being put on the rod bearings, causing them to wear out quicker due to high boost and high rpms (it will literally flake off the bearing surface) when being compared to an aluminum rod stroker, and especially when being compared to different rod-ratios (2.0L, 2.1L, 2.2L, 2.4L). The positive alternative is to use an aluminum rod to "cushion" the rod bearing, and the end result is less bearing wear than the steel rod over the same amount of abuse. The key thing is to find a strong rod that is light to reduce rotational inertia and reduce side load friction while retaining its physical structure without deformation or failure under your power levels, load and rpms.

There are ways to help your bearings in this case though when you are using any type of rod -- using a cryo-treated and coated bearing will increase its longevity while reducing thermal friction that could cause accelerated bearing wear or failure. As well, using a set of rods that are perfectly balance matched will reduce harmonics on a 1.5-rod ratio motor, resulting in increased bearing life (main and rod). For example, a 5-gram imbalance in rod weight will result in a 50-pound harmonic imbalance at 8000rpms on a 1.5-rod ratio motor using a 7-bolt Eagle rod. Balance is key, and 2.3L strokers with a 1.5-rod ratio are very picky when it comes to balance. Your bearings will like you alot more if your assembly is perfectly balanced.


As for pistons, you want to use a material that can handle high piston acceleration (due to the longer stroke and the low rod ratio) and thermal loading due to side loading. A more forgiving material is going to be better than a "stronger", more brittle material. Either way, the lighter the piston is, the less rotational inertia and load it will produce. So you are looking for the strongest, lightest, and most forgiving piston -- sounds like a fun one -- good luck. Usually you need to find a compromise as most of us purchase off-the-shelf pistons. The key materials used in pistons these days are 4032 and 2618 aluminum. Forged pistons are a must for their strength and durability. Ross pistons (312g in 7-bolt stroker application) for example, are made from 2618 aluminum which has a low silica content, but has a higher density and is more elastic than the 4032 high-silica, low-elasticity aluminum that Mahle uses in their lighter-weight pistons (250g in a 7-bolt stroker application). The positive side to using 2618 aluminum is that it is much more forgiving due to its low silica content, and higher density causing it to handle more detonation or thermal shock much better than the high silica 4032 aluminum. The high silica, lower-density 4032 has a tendency to crack, shatter or in other words, fail under the same abuse that the 2618 aluminum may be able to handle it without damage or failure. The downfall of 2618 aluminum is its expansion, so it is more likely to have piston slap due to its change in size due to thermal expansion -- you need to have a more forgiving piston-to-wall clearance and ring gap size than its 4032 counterpart that can handle much tighter tolerances without significant thermal expansion. Piston slap is already a much more likely issue when running either piston due to the increased rod angle from the lower rod ratio, so that must be taken into consideration when putting together a street motor that needs to last, or a race motor that is going to be refreshed very regularly. When using a race motor, close piston-to-wall clearance is wanted to increase efficiency, a lighter piston is wanted for reduced inertia, and a stronger (but more brittle) piston is wanted for handling higher power levels -- 4032 is the way to go. When using a street motor, you want a piston that can handle more abuse, be more forgiving, and this comes only at the cost of thermal expansion and its weight. The 2618 aluminum piston will be a better application for street use and longevity while being able to handle a less-than-perfect tune.

Thermal and anti-friction coatings are also going to help in the performance and reliability of either piston. In the fact of the thermally more expansive, but more forgiving 2618 aluminum, it will help in reducing side load friction and temperatures, resulting in a piston that is likely going to be able handle more abuse, hotspots, friction and detonation than the same piston without coatings. These coatings are a way to cheat the system of having to compromise between two aluminum types by bringing the strength and increased thermal characteristics of the 4032 aluminum to the party with the durability of the 2618 aluminum. Cryo-treating is also another excellent resource as you can strengthen the piston through molecular refinement, resulting in better wear characteristics and longevity.




So....In conclusion...

***If I went with a steel rod/aluminum piston setup in a 2.3L stroker, I would reccomend a lightweight H-beam rod (Eagle and R & R) that can handle the power, and a 2618 aluminum piston (Ross for example) that has anti-friction and thermal coatings. I would reccomend cryotreating for both rods and pistons, and I would use a cryo-treated tri-metal bearing or a cryo-treated coated ACL bearing that is properly sized for your application.

***If I went with an aluminum rod/aluminum piston setup in a 2.3L stroker, I would reccomend a capable aluminum rod (R & R or Groden or MGP) that can handle the power, and a 2618 aluminum piston (Ross for example) with the same thermal coatings and cryotreating done to it.

***If I wanted to build the craziest RACE motor that has a sole purpose of crushing my competitors, and would require more regular tear-downs and maintenence, I would go with an aluminum rod and a set of the lightest weight high-silica pistons that are coated and cryotreated with a coated bearing, and a darn good professional tune. I would look at R & R and Groden rods, along with a set of Mahle pistons. Killer setup with the lightest components and the lowest inertia of the combinations currently available.

*I would also couple any of these applications with a 7.25" twin-disk clutch or a 5.5" triple disk clutch to reduce rotational inertia, and balance the entire assembly (including clutch and flywheel to PERFECTION).

*Other little ways to increase the longevity of a stroker motor is to keep the RPMS and powerband usable (4000-8500rpms), and keep it below 8400rpms on a steel rod setup. As well, using a high-cushioning oil will help -- 20W50 is a good way to do this.

Anything else???

For now, I will shut up and I will let you decide.
 
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