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Why water injection is the best mod I've done in years...

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One thing that didn't come up in the 4 pages here is how water injection would work with a MAFT in the blow thru position. My feeling is that you certainly don't want water slamming into the fine wires of the GM MAF, so if you are gonna inject water into the intercooler you are stuck with running the GM MAF in a suck thru config.
 
well, I am a GM technician, and we routinely clean them with alot harsher stuff than "smur piss"

They may be temporarily out of calibration tho, because the temp will be lower than the actual intake air.

I don't think they will be harmed by it.
 
Baron4406 said:
One thing that didn't come up in the 4 pages here is how water injection would work with a MAFT in the blow thru position. My feeling is that you certainly don't want water slamming into the fine wires of the GM MAF, so if you are gonna inject water into the intercooler you are stuck with running the GM MAF in a suck thru config.

When the water is injected into 300 degree air, it's no longer a liquid, it's water vapor. Vapor or fine droplets, I doubt either would damage the GM MAF but I do believe it would have negative effects on the meters accuracy.
 
So what kind of alchohol has to be used if you're injecting a water/alchy mix? Also, is this system electronically controlled where it only starts injecting under high boost?
 
jaktheripper said:
So what kind of alchohol has to be used if you're injecting a water/alchy mix? Also, is this system electronically controlled where it only starts injecting under high boost?
It is boost controlled, at least with my alcohol kit, and it is plugged in to a vaccuum line, then activates the pump under preset boost. I have mine set low, it comes on about 7psi and progressivly injects more and more till it goes full pump speed at about 17psi. I use a straight denatured alcohol mix as does Buschur on his Evo and he claims he can run the car the same as if it was on 110octane. I think you could probably use denatured alky for the water mix as well.
 
Bohrn said:
well, I am a GM technician, and we routinely clean them with alot harsher stuff than "smur piss"

They may be temporarily out of calibration tho, because the temp will be lower than the actual intake air.

I don't think they will be harmed by it.

Yea as far as damaging the sensor I don't know, when the MAFT first came out there was debate about the GM MAF being rugged enough to survive under 20+ pounds of boost. Time has shown it is, however having water vapor in your MAF wires is sure to mess with accuracy. MAF's are pretty cheap tho on EBAY so I guess someone will try this and report back. If you mess up the MAF no big deal but if you freind your motor in the process............yikes.
 
Baron4406 said:
One thing that didn't come up in the 4 pages here is how water injection would work with a MAFT in the blow thru position. My feeling is that you certainly don't want water slamming into the fine wires of the GM MAF, so if you are gonna inject water into the intercooler you are stuck with running the GM MAF in a suck thru config.

tap ic pipe after gm maf (right before tb) so it doesnt get sucked into it.
 
Some water injection systems are dual stage for best effect.One injects before the intercooler and one injects after like in the tb elbow.
So injecting after the maf is no problem obviously.Injecting way back at the front of the intercooler have to wonder how much that will affect the maf if its way up near the tb.
So far don't have my system hooked up and wondering if should have went with single stage becuase of this water on the sensor problem if I go blow thru.But bought an hks ssv and wanted to vent it to atmosphere don't feel like recircing it although isn't the end of the world if I do have to get the kit for it.
I just thought blow thru is a bit better as leaks ahead of it don't affect the car if what I read is correct.
But have a question.In nearly every car when it rains out some mist must get past the filter and thru the maft and pretty sure they run fine in fairly heavy rain.My maf is draw thru and have your typical dry type k and n looking filter so pretty sure some vapor gets thru and acts like poor mans water injection.
So really is the maf going to go whacked if the water and the pre intercooler sprayer is usually much much smaller output .I would like to know as may want to return my pre intercooler stage in that case.
I was considering speed density and aem but went with eprom ecu and soon dsm link and don't think link supports full speed density.

Can we have some actual experiences on this issue of spraying into the maf.I also think putting pre intercooler nozzle pretty cloe to turbo outlet can' t see much vapor still reaching the maf after that hot 200 plus turbo air hits it ,would think that would dry up most of pre intercooler spray.
 
i am going to get one of these kits really soon. i dont know whether to go with the aquamist or with coolingmist.com kit. and can some one show a pic of the dual stage kit where the pre -intercooler nozzle is at? do you put it right before the ic (mine is still stock sidemount) or do you put it right after the turbo?
 
What if you use a fine enough jet nozzle before the IC so it'll vaporize before it even get's there?..I was thinking about running a super small nozzle before the IC just to cool the air a tad before the pre-TB nozzle is triggered..I would also like to comment to the water injection kit..Best mod next to the logger that I ever bought..I've ran upwards of 25 psi in my all stock motor for a year now and it has'nt blown yet..*knock on wood*..I'm sure once i pull the head that it'll be pretty clean inside too..
 
Bohrn said:
I would suggest against pre-intercooler, from the research I have done.
I'm curious as to your reasons for not injecting pre-intercooler. A few pages back, people were saying it worked wonderfully.
 
I assuming I could put a nozzle right on the outlet elbow on my 16g? To cool the intercooler a bit. This is a great thread :thumb:
 
keymaster said:
I'm curious as to your reasons for not injecting pre-intercooler. A few pages back, people were saying it worked wonderfully.

I'm sorry, I forget the reason. When I read it I just filed it away as something I wasn't going to do and forgot about it.

My head is full of snot and I just can't bring myself to search for it right now. I know thats not very helpful. :( Wish there was a sinus cold smiley.
 
Bohrn said:
Wish there was a sinus cold smiley.
Well, there's the old school text version- :-~(

Also, I am in the same boat as you IRT the pre-intercooler thing. Seems like there was something I had read about it somewhere that made me decide not to do it, but I can't remember what it is right now. And I don't even have the sinus excuse. :coy: But if I run across something I'll be sure to provide the link or whatever.
 
From the Aquamist FAQ under Water Tank Matters / Water Jet Locations:

13. Where do I place the water jet?
Normally immediately after the intercooler unless the intercooler suffers from heat soaking such as the type that is fitted on top of the engine (Subaru, GTI-R, Toyota Celica and etc).

14. Surely if the jet is placed before the intercooler it will have better cooling effects?
Not quite true. If the air entering the intercooler is pre-cooled, the cooling efficiency of the intercooler will drop due to the smaller temperature differentials between the ambient air and induction air within the intercooler core. Secondly, there is also a possibility that the hot air from the turbo may cause unnecessary vaporisation of the injected water thus taking up precious volume that was intended for the charge air.

The way I read the above answer is that generally you would want your sprayer nozzle(s) located AFTER the intercooler. However, on my car I am running a side-mount intercooler. It always became heat soaked very quickly. So I follow the advice in #13 and put one of my nozzles (the smaller one) pre-intercooler simply to limit the amount of heat building up in it. The larger nozzle is up closer to the throttle body so it can actually reduce the intake temp as intended.

I would personally say that anybody running a front-mount could concentrate their injection 100% post-intercooler. Side mount users (especially stock side mount) can see a benefit from a second pre-intercooler nozzle.

Need proof that pre-intercooler works? I am running upper 12's, lower 13's with 0 knock through my entire run on pump gas at 21psi on a small 16g at 8 deg timing and 800C EGT, all with a side mount intercooler - so it works for me! Lots of room for performance improvement using this water injection/side mount setup.

Jonathan


doug said:
Well, there's the old school text version- :-~(

Also, I am in the same boat as you IRT the pre-intercooler thing. Seems like there was something I had read about it somewhere that made me decide not to do it, but I can't remember what it is right now. And I don't even have the sinus excuse. :coy: But if I run across something I'll be sure to provide the link or whatever.
 
If you inject water pre-intercooler, typically the water will condense inside the intercooler and make a puddle in your endtank. You DO NOT want to inject methanol pre-intercooler, it is corrosive to the aluminum.
 
With water, inject a very small amount pre-intercooler - you aren't really trying to cool your intake temperature at this point - you are only trying to limit intercooler heat soak (generally speaking). Put a big normal sized nozzle up by the throttle body. Balance the entire system based on the air / fuel / water values discussed earlier in this thread. (I wouldn't just "try" different nozzles - I would plan it out based on fuel volume, injector size, etc.)

Jonathan

DSM mechanix said:
If you inject water pre-intercooler, typically the water will condense inside the intercooler and make a puddle in your endtank. You DO NOT want to inject methanol pre-intercooler, it is corrosive to the aluminum.
 
laser92awd said:
With water, inject a very small amount pre-intercooler - you aren't really trying to cool your intake temperature at this point - you are only trying to limit intercooler heat soak (generally speaking). Put a big normal sized nozzle up by the throttle body. Balance the entire system based on the air / fuel / water values discussed earlier in this thread. (I wouldn't just "try" different nozzles - I would plan it out based on fuel volume, injector size, etc.)

Jonathan
So, if running a dual stage w/i system, it would be best to run the smaller jet pre intercooler, correct?
 
For what its worth, I spent about $100 for my complete WI system.
I used a 60psi Shurflo pump (model) from www.northerntool.com, and adjusted the pressure switch up to about 100psi.
It is $50 now, but was only $40 when I bought it:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...isplay?storeId=6970&productId=357081&R=357081

I bought all of my line, fittings, misting nozzle, and pressure switch from mcmaster.com.

You can find tons of info on this kind of setup at the Yahoo DSM water inject group:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DSM_water_injection/

HTH!
-Adrian
 
kicker91laser said:
So, if running a dual stage w/i system, it would be best to run the smaller jet pre intercooler, correct?


We recommend the smaller injector is closer to the engine, the larger injector is futher from the engine. this gives the larger inector more time to atomize the water.

Thanks
 
and have one right after my FMIC and one in the throttle body. I think I got small after IC then big in throttle body, I can't remember. Either way, the air is so hot it vaporizes and the bigger pump will make the mist so fine it will not hydrolock the motor. If it had happened to one of us, surely by now someone would have said something. I got a 300 and 200cc nozzle but will be upgrading the turbo/injectors soon. I have everything else done. Even if a little water dripped out (which it doesn't as I can tell, I've checked multiple times) the heat of the metal pipes would evaporate that before the next start so I can't see a bunch of water dumped into the mani then into the motor. Regardless, it works. I had knock counts around 18-20 and up to 34 at 16 PSI and the first nozzle took it down to 5 or so. I turned boost down a little to 14 and got 0 knock where as before I had around 10 or so there. I have mine set to come on at 7-8 PSI and the secondary nozzle now comes on at 10-12. It's a good investment if you ask me. I'm all about being proactive with mods like this first, and doing the bigger stuff later.
 
I know w/i is mainly to combat knock, but how much of a difference can you feel when driving the car?
 
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