The Top DSM Community on the Web

For 1990-1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser, and Galant VR-4 Owners. Log in to remove most ads.

Please Support RTM Racing
Please Support Morrison Fabrication

What tranny for 600-700hp 1g ???? take a look

Best tranny on the market !!!!


  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .

This site may earn a commission from merchant
affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

91gvr4gsr

Banned Member
202
0
Jan 11, 2009
new york, New_York
ok im looking for a tranny for my build i want something that wont break when beat on LOL..
so ive decided to make a poll to see what tranny you guys are running and the hp your making to help me and all the guys looking to buying a tranny .....there so many great shops
 
You cant go wrong with the big 3 (jack, shep, tre) but I personally have known Jack for over 8 years and he knows his stuff. He has great customer service and for the price you pay to get his race trans it cant be beat. Ive seen his tranny take tons of abuse and keep on going.

I have his value build and it works great. Shifts better than new.
 
You cant go wrong with the big 3 (jack, shep, tre) but I personally have known Jack for over 8 years and he knows his stuff. He has great customer service and for the price you pay to get his race trans it cant be beat. Ive seen his tranny take tons of abuse and keep on going.

I have his value build and it works great. Shifts better than new.

great info :thumb:
 
Man this subject sucks, and to sum up the whole thing. You basically getting the same trans were ever you go. I personally run with dogboxracing. I have there fully build trans with evo 3 internals ($1980.00) which is the same thing as the jack premium build, shep stage 4, and tre stage 3. Torque is what kills the transmission not hp.Any how i like to call them "glorified" stock transmissions will break.

Its always a factor of when its going to break, not if its going to break. I killed a evo3 4th gear and intermediate shaft. I prob wasnt putting down close to 500 lbs of torque and 560-590hp. I pulled it into gear and let the clutch go and it just free revved. Then i heard stuff flying around in the trans, had all other gears and no 4th.

Once this happens theres acouple things that "suppositly" help. Cryo treatment, micropolishing, but its not going to get you away from the fact that they are stock gears, and not ment to take alot of stress, they will break...it might be the 1st hard pass, or it might hold awhile but it will happen.

At this point a built auto, or a full straight cut ppg, or par gearbox is the only way out, which will still break, just not as likely. You will just move on to the next weak link LOL.
 
Man this subject sucks, and to sum up the whole thing. You basically getting the same trans were ever you go. I personally run with dogboxracing. I have there fully build trans with evo 3 internals ($1980.00) which is the same thing as the jack premium build, shep stage 4, and tre stage 3. Torque is what kills the transmission not hp.Any how i like to call them "glorified" stock transmissions will break.

Its always a factor of when its going to break, not if its going to break. I killed a evo3 4th gear and intermediate shaft. I prob wasnt putting down close to 500 lbs of torque and 560-590hp. I pulled it into gear and let the clutch go and it just free revved. Then i heard stuff flying around in the trans, had all other gears and no 4th.

Once this happens theres acouple things that "suppositly" help. Cryo treatment, micropolishing, but its not going to get you away from the fact that they are stock gears, and not ment to take alot of stress, they will break...it might be the 1st hard pass, or it might hold awhile but it will happen.

At this point a built auto, or a full straight cut ppg, or par gearbox is the only way out, which will still break, just not as likely. You will just move on to the next weak link LOL.

Well i think your wrong this subject does not suck.......and thanks for your input :thumb:

fyi jacks premium build is about $2300 :D
 
Man this subject sucks, and to sum up the whole thing. You basically getting the same trans were ever you go. I personally run with dogboxracing. I have there fully build trans with evo 3 internals ($1980.00) which is the same thing as the jack premium build, shep stage 4, and tre stage 3. Torque is what kills the transmission not hp.Any how i like to call them "glorified" stock transmissions will break.

Its always a factor of when its going to break, not if its going to break. I killed a evo3 4th gear and intermediate shaft. I prob wasnt putting down close to 500 lbs of torque and 560-590hp. I pulled it into gear and let the clutch go and it just free revved. Then i heard stuff flying around in the trans, had all other gears and no 4th.

Once this happens theres acouple things that "suppositly" help. Cryo treatment, micropolishing, but its not going to get you away from the fact that they are stock gears, and not ment to take alot of stress, they will break...it might be the 1st hard pass, or it might hold awhile but it will happen.

At this point a built auto, or a full straight cut ppg, or par gearbox is the only way out, which will still break, just not as likely. You will just move on to the next weak link LOL.

Sadly, everything you just said to the letter I agree with. I'm on built tranny number 3 at the moment. They are nothing but "blueprinted" stock transmissions with some backdating or updating. I broke mine with around 400 w.h.p., and before that with alot less. Last one tossed the intermediate 3rd gear, then ripped everything inside the transmission apart. I'm going to see how long the "shot peened" gears hold up. Nothing against the trans builder, they are doing what they can with the gears that are available.

However, the horsepower numbers being thrown around in their advertisements give me a pretty good laugh. I would pay the bare minimum for a rebuild to be honest and save the money towards the next rebuild.
 
Sadly, everything you just said to the letter I agree with. I'm on built tranny number 3 at the moment. They are nothing but "blueprinted" stock transmissions with some backdating or updating. I broke mine with around 400 w.h.p., and before that with alot less. Last one tossed the intermediate 3rd gear, then ripped everything inside the transmission apart. I'm going to see how long the "shot peened" gears hold up. Nothing against the trans builder, they are doing what they can with the gears that are available.

However, the horsepower numbers being thrown around in their advertisements give me a pretty good laugh. I would pay the bare minimum for a rebuild to be honest and save the money towards the next rebuild.

who put your tranny together?????:confused:
 
T.R.E. built mine.

It doesn't matter though, I would have broken a Shep or Jack's transmission all the same. That is the point, the transmissions other than gear stack preload, detail work, surface treatments are pretty much all the same, despite the hype. When I bought my first built transmission, I paid around $3,000 thinking it would be the last. That lasted about 10,000 miles. Then the 2nd built trans went another 10,000 miles and popped, which was rebuilt at just the cost of parts for around $850. Then the 3rd tranny I opted to reuse an old failed trans that had a good amount of useable parts. I think I paid $1465 total for that one with the upgraded EVOIII 3rd and 4th gears and shot peening.

My point is, transmissions have a set life span depending on torque output, driving style, and mileage. Drive it on the 1/4 mile track only and it might last forever. Hard street driving I can pop a built tranny within 10,000 miles. Upgrade only what you absolutely need, and save the money for the next build. Eventually you get sick of spending the money and you'll start doing your own rebuilds. My next one will be rebuilt by me.
 
Amen to that, i help the guys at dogbox alot so in terms they help me. Really time only tells. Driven has alot to do with it. I was shifting like I had a Getrag out of a 6spd supra....well these trans dont like that. On my second pull with the bike clicking 4th did the deed.

I mean it sucks, but unless you can stack up the 4500-6k for a staight cut box, which still can break. Plus when it does you looking at alot more to fix (500-600 a gear LOL) when its 70-90 a gear in a stock trans, or you might be able to get spare parts and do it yourself cheaper.

I too was under the impression "man this will take care of the trans issue, ill be good forever" hahahha man what a joke. Thats when shep was the only one building them that i knew of, and the other guys were up and comming. It will never be the last transmission. Thats why i have a spare one just incase i need it back together in a hurry, but its all stock so i can slap it in a drive it normal thats it.
 
Everyone is right. No matter what you get with more than about 450lb/ft it's going to break. Not if, but when. The best helical gears you can get are out of a car that made about 250 lb/ft of torque. Personally what i do is build them myself and keep a spare ready. You can shim them a little tight and clean up and cryo treat the gears, but they are still physically small gears. Here is a dsm 3rd gear next to a getrag w5mg1 3rd gear out of a 3000gt vr4.
You must be logged in to view this image or video.
 
Autos seem to be the way to go now when in the HP range the OP is looking at. I totally agree that you are going to break them eventually on a helical trans. It gets expensive running that kind of HP as things can break at any time, but that's just all part of racing IMO. That's true with just about any vehicle though and if you look at what us DSMers pay for parts it's a real bargain compared to what others pay for just a synchro. I remember back when I used to have to pay over $300 for one synchro when rebuilding a Getrag unit! Ouch!

Jack
 
Autos seem to be the way to go now when in the HP range the OP is looking at. I totally agree that you are going to break them eventually on a helical trans. It gets expensive running that kind of HP as things can break at any time, but that's just all part of racing IMO. That's true with just about any vehicle though and if you look at what us DSMers pay for parts it's a real bargain compared to what others pay for just a synchro. I remember back when I used to have to pay over $300 for one synchro when rebuilding a Getrag unit! Ouch!

Jack

OK I UNDERSTAND .........SO A FULL DOGBOX WOULD BETTER RIGHT???IM GOING TO LEARN HOW TO BUILD TRANNYS MY SELF LOL
 
Make sure you get a bunch of cores. You will be breaking them while learning. That's okay as you will get better as you go along. It's all part of the deal and could be fun!

Jack
 
I vote for TRE. Jon has really good customer service and everything you want to know is up on his site. Both my DSMs trannies were built by TRE.
 
The automatic is making alot more sense for a 1/4 mile drag car.
They are actually pretty fun to drive, I wish I'd have gotten around to installing a higher stall speed torque converter on my old 1g. I definitely could see the potential, especially with the newer launch control etc.
 
Heres some good reads on the subject.

Shot Peening & WPC Treatment - Metal Coatings and Treatment - Turbo & High-Tech Performance Magazine

WPC Treatment - What is WPC?

http://www.gearsolutionsonline.com/uploads/assets//PDF/Articles/June08/ISF0608.pdf

This is a quote about the gear solutions site

Now about surface finishing the shot peening doesn't do much down to a microscopic level and the same can be said to electropolishing. There is a practice called isotropic surface finishing developed for military helicopter gear boxes ( You have to have damn good parts because if they stop working be prepared to drop out of the sky like a rock).

Here's a document I've been reading about this for a while and apparently a lot of aviation companies do this and see vast improvements.. if you want to improve something you have to go through pain to get to glory.

This thread was made to basically know and improve on not for a couple of ###gots to run their mouths.

PDF here very technical I know one company that does this and even applies this to roller bearings (removing them from their bearing cages and all)

http://www.gearsolutionsonline.com/u...08/ISF0608.pdf

I basically quoted all the things you would want to read.


Quote:
Initial testing performed by Alion Science and Technology Corporation (formerly IIT Research Institute), under the Army MANTECH program (DAAJ09-95-C-0546), demonstrated that the isotropic superfinish process improved performance in Rolling/Sliding Contact Fatigue (R/SCF) specimens. This testing revealed that superfinished samples yielded improvements of up to nine times the contact fatigue life as compared to baseline test specimens.

Isotropic superfinished specimens have also demonstrated the ability to successfully carry 30-percent higher loads for at least three times the life of the baseline samples.


These promising INFAC results led to the comparison testing of actual aerospace quality gears in both baseline (final ground) and isotropic superfinish conditions. This second project, conducted under the PTSM Program, was titled "Engineered and Superfinished Surfaces for Precision Aerospace Applications" (Manufacturing Technology Report, October 30, 2002, Contract No. DAAH23-00-C-R232). This project demonstrated the ability of isotropic superfinishing to increase a gear's resistance to contact fatigue by a factor of three, and to increase bending fatigue resistance by at least 10 percent. This increase in gear performance translates to reduced operation and sustainment costs and offers the potential for weight reduction in new transmission designs. However, the effect of the isotropic superfinish process on scuffing resistance of gears remained unknown. This lack of knowledge was an obstacle to implementation of the process. Consequently, it was determined that data on scuffing resistance must be obtained.



Quote:
The isotropic superfinish process is a commercially available process that, when applied to helicopter transmission gears, can result in improved gear tooth bending and contact fatigue resistance as well as reduced noise, vibration, and operating temperatures [3] [4]. The isotropic superfinish process provides a uniform surface finish by reducing the peaks on the surface through the use of chemically accelerated vibratory finishing.



Quote:
A detailed description of chemically accelerated vibratory finishing using high-density nonabrasive media has been published in the past [5]. The following is a brief summary of the technique. The isotropic superfinish is produced in vibratory finishing bowls or tubs. An active chemistry is used in the vibratory machine in conjunction with high-density, nonabrasive ceramic media. When introduced into the machine this active chemistry produces a stable, soft conversion coating on the surface of the metal gears being processed. The rubbing motion across the gears developed by the machine and media effectively wipes the conversion coating off the "peaks" of the gears' surfaces, but leaves the "valleys" untouched. No finishing occurs where media is unable to contact or rub. The conversion coating is continually reformed and rubbed off during this stage, producing a surface smoothing mechanism. This process is continued in the vibratory machine until the surfaces of the gears are free of asperities or until the surface attains the desired level of finish. At this point the active chemistry is rinsed from the part and the gears are dipped in rust preventive.



Quote:
As such, Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation and REM Chemicals, Inc., teaming with the United States Army and Navy, conducted a 200-hour endurance test on the H-60 tail and intermediate gearboxes with the isotropic superfinish process applied to the bevel gears. Testing included documentation of noise and vibration levels, along with determination of the effects on gearbox temperature. Results of the H-60 tests are not publicly available at this time (AATD RDS-21 Program, Agreement Number DAAH10-01-2-0032). Sikorsky also ran an in-house test on an S-76C+ main gearbox final stage spur bull gear and mating two pinions that had been isotropic superfinish processed. Results show a 3.7 dB noise reduction for the second stage bevel gear, and a 7.0 dB noise reduction for the third stage bull gear (at 1 x bull gear clash frequency), and a 5°F drop in oil out temperature as a result.

Quote:
The objective of this PTSM Project was to determine and compare the scuffing resistance of isotropic superfinished precision aerospace gears to that of conventionally processed baseline samples. Sample gears were made from SAE 9310 gear steel for this study. It was expected that this project would result in the quantification of the scuffing resistance of isotropic superfinished precision gears. It was further expected that the results of this project would lead to the implementation of the isotropic superfinish technology, if the scuffing resistance of the superfinished gears was shown to be equivalent or superior to those gears that were conventionally processed.



Quote:
Both baseline (final ground) and isotropic superfinish gears were tested at DTC, using a method that progressively increases lubricant temperature until scuffing occurs. It was theorized that a significant scuffing resistance should be obtained based on the fact that under the testing conditions used, 4,000 rpm and 2490 in-lbs of torque

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test
Tests
After the four setup tests with baseline (final ground) gears were completed, a total of four additional tests were conducted with baseline gears following the procedure developed. In three of these, the gears scuffed during run-up to speed. At this point it was discovered that the baseline test gears being used were actually mixed Pyrowear®53 and SAE 9310. All baseline tests up to this point had been conducted with one Pyrowear®53 gear mated with one SAE 9310 gear. Since the SAE 9310 was the weaker link, these setup tests had established test conditions for SAE 9310 test gears. Since three of the four baseline samples did not survive past the run-in cycle or run up to testing speed, it was decided to lower the contact stress levels on the next two baseline runs. The contact stress was then reduced to 260 KSI and two tests using baseline SAE 9310 gears mated with baseline SAE 9310 gears resulted in normal scuffing failures after the run-in cycle. See Figure 4 for an image of a scuffed surface after testing.

The contact stress was increased back to 285 KSI and two tests were conducted with isotropic superfinish SAE 9310 gears mated to isotropic superfinish SAE 9310 gears. The first resulted in a scuffing failure at a higher lubricant temperature than the baseline gears, the other did not scuff even with 315°F lubricant being supplied, but finally did scuff slightly during spin-down after the test was complete. See Figure 5 for an image of the second isotropic superfinish test, which only scuffed after testing was complete. Detailed results for all the tests are shown in Table 2
 
Last edited by a moderator:
i think jack's should look into doing this! great info man!!! i'd like to see the cost of doing it to every piece inside the tranny!
 
The problem is the teeth will break at the undercut area of the gear just below the rootline when you have too much power. These gear polishing type of services are excellent for efficiency, but the problem is the gears break where you can't get to them. They will fatigue to a point that the teeth just zip right off of the shaft. Polishing does a great job of saving the area around the pitch line at the flank and face, but will not prevent fatigue at the rootline. Here is a gear that broke from a car with a huge torque number:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l251/GVR4_1670/DSC03004.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l251/GVR4_1670/DSC02618.jpg

Those of you that have a lot of power and have broken gears would have probably noticed that the gears integrated to the shafts are what break, not the floating gears. 1-2 on the input and 3-4 on the intermediate. I believe the problem is with the gears inability to flex as easily on the shaft as the others are able to flex just enough to outlast the input 1-2 and intermediate 3-4. I think if you can find a way to make the shaft teeth flex more without fatigue then you are on to something.

Having said that, we do see more life out of gears that are micropolished, so the services mentioned above won't hurt, but they will still break in time. If you got 10k miles out of your last gear set, you may get 12k out of the polished ones. So far we have seen absolutely no difference with cryo treated gears, but I offer the service anyway as people always want it no matter what I say or think about it and I don't believe it does any harm either.

If you are breaking gears like this:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l251/GVR4_1670/DSC02619.jpg

Then polishing/detail work will help prevent that. -Another thing to note about these type of failures is it usually has to do with oil. Royal Purp, Synchroshift, Synchro Mesh all wear the gears pretty badly. When these oils are used I can usually spot gear wear to a point that you can feel a lip on the tooth with your finger nail. The gear is literally wiped out. Eventually the teeth will wear until they start fretting and come apart. The Redline and Mitsu oils give you a nice polished look as it can work well under high pressure conditions at the tooth pitch point. You won't see any wiped off gear teeth with those oils.


Jack
 
Support Vendors who Support the DSM Community
Boosted Fabrication ECM Tuning ExtremePSI Fuel Injector Clinic Innovation Products Jacks Transmissions JNZ Tuning Kiggly Racing Morrison Fabrications MyMitsubishiStore.com RixRacing RockAuto RTM Racing STM Tuned

Latest posts

Build Thread Updates

Vendor Updates

Latest Classifieds

Back
Top