ECMlink Very high VE table values under boost. Running lean.

Posted by jakk220, Jun 19, 2017

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  1. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    Stow, Ohio
    1). Any boost, vac, or exhaust leaks?
    Boost leak tested 5psi above your max boost with no leaks? None


    2). Verified mechanical timing?

    yes

    3). Verified base timing?


    4). Ignition system
    COP or Stock Coil: Stock
    Wire brand and Age: NGK less than 6 months
    Spark Plug brand, type and Gap: bpr7es gapped to .018

    5). Motor health (Compression Test)
    Cylinder 1: 170
    Cylinder 2: 170
    Cylinder 3: 170
    Cylinder 4: 170

    6). Performed basic throttle body adjustments?
    Idle Switch: yes
    Throttle Cable: yes
    TPS: yes
    BISS: yes

    7). Compression ratio

    9:1

    8). Any known bad sensors or brittle wiring?

    None

    9). Any DTC/CEL codes?

    None


    10). Electrical system
    Car off (not running):
    Car running:

    11). Base fuel pressure and injector values
    Base Fuel Pressure: 47.0 (I know needs adjusted, just switched to a more accurate gauge)
    Injector Size (cc/min): 1450cc

    12). Properly calibrated and configured wideband sensor
    Sensor Brand: AEM
    Calibration Date: N/A

    13). Type of fuel
    Type: E85
    Percent of Ethanol: Unkown

    14). Watched ECMlink how-to videos?

    Yes





    Currently working with my tuner on an issue that was noticed after my switch to speed density. Did not get very far in the tune before he noticed it. The problem that he is having with my car is that the VE values are super high in boost, the car goes lean, and that is all with the injectors scaled down lower than they already should be even for E85.

    What I have checked and know:

    - Fuel pressure goes up 1:1 with boost so no pressure issue
    - Injectors were cleaned of some E85 goo that they had one them and soaked in seafoam
    - Fuel pump was checked for any leaks where it connects to the hanger.


    This is what the VE table looks like: 19398141_750778361769749_1997556706_n.jpg

    This is what the important part of the log looks like (Log files are also uploaded to this post.)


    19398628_750778358436416_1588809826_n.jpg



    I am sending out the injectors to FIC to have them flow tested and cleaned because to me and my tuner, that has to be the issue. But I was posting to here just to see if anyone else has an idea of what it could be that I could test in the meantime. Thanks.
     

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    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

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  2. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    Could be injectors, after all Blue Max injectors are notorious for sucking ass. Your fuel curve is pretty consistent, though. Maybe a bit too consistent for injectors to be the issue.

    I'd want to rule out a possible pump issue. Is your pump rewired? You need to make sure you have full voltage and adequate amperage going to the pump.

    Anything that would restrict flow, or the pump's ability to pump could also be an issue. A restriction at the pump sock, or any fittings/lines leading up to/from the rail could cause a problem. What fuel filter are you running, and when's the last time it was serviced?
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

      manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

    12.030 @ 119.39 MPH
    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    Street Build

    14b   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

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  3. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    The pump is pretty much brand new and the sock looked fine when I had the pump out yesterday. The fuel filter was changed right before I made the switch to E85 which was about 2 years ago I believe. 3 at the most. It is a stock filter and all of the lines are stock as well. The pump is not rewired.
    If the fuel filter was an issue or the voltage I would think that the pressure would be dropping off wouldn't it? I will change the fuel filter either tomorrow or Wednesday just to rule it out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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  4. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    A 2-3 year old stock filter running on E85 would be my first suspicion.

    Your pump should be running off of its own relay, with a direct 12v connection to battery voltage. I would never advise running a 450 off of the stock wiring. I'd be interested to see what kind of current your pump is pulling through the stock harness at 60+ psi of fuel pressure. I guarantee whatever that number is, the stock wiring wasn't intended to handle it. I'd put rewiring your pump on your immediate to-do list if I were you.

    A clogged fuel filter may not necessarily cause a drop in pressure. It would, however, limit flow, which your pressure gauge will typically not show you.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

      manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

    12.030 @ 119.39 MPH
    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    Street Build

    14b   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    16g   manual
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    PlanZero and 1990TSIAWDTALON like this.
  5. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    Well you said it, ill do it. Just ordered a re-wire kit and I will replace the filter either tomorrow or on Wednesday. If that doesnt fix it then I will send out the injectors.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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  6. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    Chop the filter open and see how the element looks after you pull it.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

      manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

    12.030 @ 119.39 MPH
    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    Street Build

    14b   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    16g   manual
    Loading...
  7. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    Stow, Ohio
    Sure will do! I should be working on it tomorrow unless I get this call out for work. So ill report back then. If the fuel filter doesn't fix it then i'm going to wait to send the injectors out until I rule out the fuel pump rewire.

    This is pretty much 100% a fueling issue though correct?
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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  8. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    I don't see anything in your log that would suggest it's an issue with the tune, if that's what you're asking.

    With a global fuel setting that rich, coupled with the incredibly rich SD table, it's pretty likely it's a mechanical issue of some sort.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

      manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

    12.030 @ 119.39 MPH
    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    Street Build

    14b   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    16g   manual
    Loading...
  9. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    Joined Nov 13, 2010
    Stow, Ohio

    No I know something mechanical is wrong. I just wanted to make sure it couldn't be something else going wrong other than the fuel system. I mean, I know it looks to be 100% a fueling issue, but over the years these cars surprise me more and more LOL.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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  10. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    San Diego, California
    It's hard to say, but I'd be fairly confident in saying it's a mechanical fuel problem.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

      manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

    12.030 @ 119.39 MPH
    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    Street Build

    14b   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    16g   manual
    Loading...
  11. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    Joined Nov 13, 2010
    Stow, Ohio
    Gotcha. The only other possible thing I think it could be is a wideband reading issue. And even then like my tuner said, it would read wrong all the time and it seems to be okay cruising.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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  12. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

    708
    77
    Joined Nov 13, 2010
    Stow, Ohio
    0620171207a.jpg 0620171207b.jpg 0620171207a.jpg 0620171207b.jpg


    Pics of the filter. Looks pretty clean actually. I changed it and its still running lean. Im going to send out the injectors today. Fuel pump rewire is in the mail aswell. Any other ideas in the meantime??
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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  13. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

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    Holy hell, if you don't have a fuel pump rewire done then that's unforgiveable :) I'm not certain, but you could have good pressure but not good flow from the pump. Don't quote me.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    16g   manual
    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD (sold)

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  14. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    San Diego, California
    Yeah, filter looks clean. It could very well be the injectors, it just wouldn't be high on my list of likely issues to check for first.

    Just ensure you don't have any restrictions or kinks in the lines leading up to or from the rail. Also, not sure how your fuel pump is installed on the hanger, but that could cause issues as well. People have commonly had issues when using crappy fittings to adapt the 450 pumps to the hanger body. There's actually a good video on this in one of the Facebook groups I saw recently: https://www.facebook.com/groups/dsmlinksupportline/permalink/743547995817301/

    Have you tried to give your fuel pressure a little bump up to see if you get any change to your AFRs?
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

      manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

    12.030 @ 119.39 MPH
    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    Street Build

    14b   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    16g   manual
    Loading...
  15. Tyeler18

    Tyeler18 Proven Member

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    ^^ Was going to suggest Kenny's video, since the fuel system is stock I'd assume the hanger is stock. That 450 has plenty of power to pump out pressure, but you could be losing flow from a pump O-ring going up into the hanger not sealing properly.
     
    My DSM:
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Road Race Build

    GT30   manual
    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Autocross Build

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Road Race Build

    GT35   manual
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  16. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    The video is about me! LOL. That is my log and he is the one tuning my car LOL. My name is Zach. So the videos in the comments with my name of the 450 pump test are mine. I checked and it was not leaking there. All the lines have been inspected and there are no kinks.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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  17. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    Also Kenny told me not to change the fuel pressure because that shouldnt be the problem. He said to send the injectors out to FIC which I did.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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  18. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    I agree that shouldn't be the problem, but it's an easy check to do. Although, if there's a restriction somewhere, it won't do much.

    At this point, it's probably a good idea to send the injectors out, and get them looked at.

    BTW, Kenny is a boss at tuning, so I'd trust his advice.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

      manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

    12.030 @ 119.39 MPH
    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    Street Build

    14b   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    16g   manual
    Loading...
  19. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    Joined Nov 13, 2010
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    Yep they are in the mail and will be at FIC on Friday. Thanks for helping me with this issue btw. I was a little worried at first with finding a tuner on a facebook page but he always seemed very knowledgeable so I figured why not. I'm real picky about who tinkers with my car and get paranoid about stuff like that LOL. Glad to hear from someone reputable on the forums that he is good at what he does. Eases any worries I may have had.

    By the time the injectors get checked out the fuel pump will be rewired and ready to go. I know shame on me for not having the pump rewired already. I have a set of 880s I might toss in just to see what happens. They have some E85 goo I need to clean off of them first.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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  20. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

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    I imagine yall are referring to Kenny Kline. I remember him posting up something about fuel pressure. I just don't want to spend $120 on sensor right now, but maybe I will. He actually just got me setup as well. Very knowledgeable guy.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    16g   manual
    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD (sold)

    16g   manual
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  21. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

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    I've personally never had any tuning done by him, but he has a good reputation with the community, and other tuners I do know.

    Tuning is one of those "Teach a man to fish" type things, IMO. A second opinion is always good from a knowledgeable tuner, but knowing what your tuner is doing, and why they're doing it is truly indispensable. I'm not even close to a tuning expert, but just tinkering with my own builds and tunes has made all the difference in the success of my build.

    You hear people saying they have tuning secrets, but what they really have is many lessons learned after tons and tons of experience. That experience is what you're paying for if your tuner is worth a damn. The only way to get that experience is to DO, which is why I always encourage members here to make the leap and start tuning their own stuff.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

      manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

    12.030 @ 119.39 MPH
    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    Street Build

    14b   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    16g   manual
    Loading...
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  22. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    https://www.ebay.com/i/261260635816?chn=ps&dispItem=1

    It threads right into the spot where your fuel pressure gauge is on your regulator. You can run it to an ECU input and log fuel pressure. That is the one Kenny recommended to me and it is working great so far.

    I have actually never paid anyone for a tune on my car. This is the first time. I just had no idea how to tune with speed density coming from MAFcomp. I read and read and read about it but I just needed to have someone point me in the right direction. Which is why I went to Kenny originally. He said it would best if he tuned it to get it straightened out first, and then teach me along the way while he tunes it. Which is awesome! And you are right it is indispensable.

    One of my biggest problems was I was taught wrong on how to tune my car in the past. Now the past year or so I got it right with my MAF, but was overrunning it with my HX40 and needed to make the move. I did make 425 on Buschurs Dyno at the shootout last year though. Hoping to see 500 this year if im lucky.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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  23. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    Stow, Ohio
    Well the fuel pump re-wire is complete. So that will eliminate that being an issue. FIC just got the injectors Friday so I should hear back from them early to mid next week on their condition. Also I installed the Toyota seal on the fuel pump even though it was not leaking from the O-ring. Mainly because I just don't trust it.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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    miliman13 likes this.
  24. miliman13

    miliman13 Proven Member

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    Looking forward to learn more.
    Great advice about the fuel pressure sensor.

    That's great better than another gauge.
    And cheaper too.

    What pin did you use? I'm going to copy you on this one.
     
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  25. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    I used the Baro pin and just wired it into the ecu harness. You can use any open pin though obviously

    If you look in the description of the product there is a 10ft cable you can buy for $11 if you want to do that. It works really well and i'm glad I got it.

    It is really easy to wire up. Red goes to 5v power (pin 81 green and yellow), black goes to ground (I used pin 92), and white goes to open pin input.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
    My DSM:
    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
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