Timing off? Experiencing strange symptoms *PICS*

[jm1080]

Just did headgasket job and when installing timing belt again, friend who did job for me did timing as well and seems to be wrong. I get bad idle, engine vibration at 3k rpm, and car just feels like crap.

Also when I received my head back from machine shop they didn't install the cam gears..So he had to install them. Now when he installed them he noticed he installed them backwards. Like the exhaust cam gear on the intake side and the intake side on the exhast side. Now he said it doesn't matter because they are the same. Is that true?

Here are pics:

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[jm1080]

ok so far i installed belt now through the idler pulley and down through the oil pump sprocket, then to the crank sprocket and got it to the tensioner pulley, so do I tighten the bolt on the tensioner pulley forcing the pulley down?

Then let go of grenade pin?

Kind of stuck on this one, appreciate the help!

 

[motomattxxx]

You want to force the pulley up to the right, while placing a couple of pounds of pressure on it, and then tighten the bolt while holding in that position, then pull the pin, let it sit for 15 min or so and check that the pin can be re-inserted without any trouble.

 

[jericho777]

I found it a little easier making sure the cam gears were correct by putting a ruler across the cam bolts and timing marks. My son and I tried several times to set the timing and we couldn't seem to get it until we used a straight edge. Here are some pics from a previous post. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/att...pse-bent-valves-need-timing-help-848-copy.jpg http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/att...pse-bent-valves-need-timing-help-850-copy.jpg http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/att...pse-bent-valves-need-timing-help-849-copy.jpg

 

[jm1080]

sorry for all the questions, Im kind of stuck.

For some reason I keep getting some slack on the intake side to the idler pulley, I keep taking off the belt on the oil pump sprocket to try to cut slack but nothing is working to take off slack.

Also the crank sprocket and balance shaft sprocket moved and the two ticks on the cam gears moved a tiny bit but they are still straight, I'm kind of worried, does that matter? I did clip on the belt on the cam gears so not sure how it could shift a tiny bit. Please if you guys can help me out, I appreciate it it!

 

[motomattxxx]

Then move the crankshaft back until the marks are where they should be and make sure that the cam marks are still on. It sounds like you left belt slack on the intake side, you want to take it out and leave it on the exhaust side for the tensioner, this may require you to remove the belt again to do that.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

sorry for all the questions, Im kind of stuck.

For some reason I keep getting some slack on the intake side to the idler pulley, I keep taking off the belt on the oil pump sprocket to try to cut slack but nothing is working to take off slack.

Also the crank sprocket and balance shaft sprocket moved and the two ticks on the cam gears moved a tiny bit but they are still straight, I'm kind of worried, does that matter? I did clip on the belt on the cam gears so not sure how it could shift a tiny bit. Please if you guys can help me out, I appreciate it it!

First of all, did you get rid of the slack between the cams? Looked like there was slack, but hard to tell from the pic. Don't be afraid to redo it if needed.

After getting belt of cams, and clipped the belt to cam gears to hold it there, next it goes over the idler pulley, and next the oil pump. TO me, it looked like your oil pump was off a tooth? Hard to tell for sure with the pics. You also need to make sure the oil pump and balance shaft are timed right (see the VFAQ).

Alright, so belt over the oil pump sprocket and lined up, with crank back about a half tooth, pull belt over crank gear, and turn it forward holding it like that with 1/2 inch extension/ratchet, use that to pull the crank to line up exact and get belt into the teeth. Now up around tenseioner pulley. Should all still line up.

Now refer to other right up or other poster for tensioner pulley on 2g, mine is 1g. Slight difference, they turn different way.

Tip: do not pull pin until after you have turned it back 1/4 turn, then turn it over 4 times, check to see if pin easily moves in and out, if not, do not pull until it does, unless you love pulling the tensioner off and re-compressing it over and over. Only pull the pin after it is 100% perfect. Again, see some other postings on here for setting the tensioner. Just as important as setting the timing.

 

[river]

Timing Belt VFAQ

you're at step 27 and all looks great til now. now you need to follow from step 27 down.

your next step is to set belt tension temporarily so that you can rotate the motor and recheck timing alignment...so rotate ithe tensioner pulley downward and get an allen wrench (so the two dowel pin openings are on the bottomside of the pulley), to accomplish this, stick the allen wrench in the pulley hole and pull with your right arm towards the firewall, tighten the pulley bolt down, make sure the belt is taut, and then undo your clips...rotate the motor 6 times and make sure everything lines up properly. if it does, great! now make positive you're at TDC again, put your clips back on the cams (preventative measure) and loosen the timing belt tensioner pulley bolt. i'm assuming you dont have the special tensioner tool for the pulley, so get your allen wrench back out and stick it in the pulley, put approximately 3 ft. lbs on the pulley and then tighten the bolt down to 35 ft. lbs.

you should be able to lift up on the tensioner arm and have just enough room to fit a medium-large size drill bit between the tensioner body and the tensioner arm (.150-.177in) illustration 21 in step 36 in the link i posted you. if you have that amount of room, pull the tensioner pin. if not, you need to redo the tensioner pully tension again, and then check the gap between the tensioner body and the tensioner arm again. repeat til you get it right, then pull the pin.

i don't know what snowboarder714 or whatever the hell his name is, i dunno what he's thinkin. youre NOT supposed to be able to wiggle the pin and put in in and pull it out after the timing belt job. that auto-tensioner needs to do its job of tensioning due to loads put on the motor, etc...it needs to be able to do the tensioning job itself. If the timing belt is so taut via the tensioner pulley being that tight, then you've done it wrong. the pulley is not there to apply full tension to the belt, and should never be adjusted as such. this is what leads to timing belt failures...people such as snowboarder misinforming.

seriously, study the vfaq i linked you to...read it over and over and over until it's 100% clear to you. for now, hopefully we've helped you...but you need to understand why and what you're doing...not just following our instruction.

 

[jm1080]

Thanks for that detailed information river and spoolin!

So, I can just use an allen wrench that fits onto the little two holes on the tensioner pulley and just make sure they are facing down and push down on it 3 ft/lbs, then torque down the bolt, then just push up the tensioner arm and stick a medium sized drill bit and if it fits in there like the specs, I can pull the pin correct?

And yea I wasn't too sure how to do the other way of tensioning, people state two different opinions on tensioning, yours seems the easiest.

Also my problem right now is putting on belt on the oil pump sprocket to crank sprocket, either one keeps moving out of alignment when trying to take slack out! This seems to be the hardest part to me. I figured I can just move oil pump sprocket back to 10 o clock when putting on then move to 11 o clock, but for crank sprocket if I do that and get belt on it will move the cams as well because belt is completely on. Any tips? Thanks in advance!

UPDATE WITH PICS:

ok well this was my 30th time (seriously) trying to get the belt on all sprockets/pulleys. I'am perfectionist, so I wanted it to be perfectly aligned, now I was able to get all the slack out of the intake side like stated, but I have a bit on the crank sprocket to tensioner pulley, this is normal correct?

Here are pics, please tell me if everything is lined up perfectly? Took forever to do!:

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[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Yep looks good now all you need to do is take up all the extra slack with the tensioner pully before pulling the auto tensioner's pin.

 

[jm1080]

Got out all slack, tensioned properly!

But heres the problem, not sure if its normal or maybe I'm just paranoid. I rotated 6 revolutions as stated after tensioning, everything is nice and tight. Now I noticed that it doesn't look 100% lined up (to me) I'm not sure if it's the angle or what. Here are pics:

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Now I did another 6 rotations but tried to line up the bottom sprockets to how I see is 100% perfect in my eyes and these are the pics:

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You can see how the timing marks on the cams are still in same teeth, but intake side is slightly higher.

Please let me know guys, so paranoid over this, literally took forever because I wanted it to be 100% perfect! Don't want to end up putting everything back to gether to find out its not good

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Looks fine... It looks like all of the lower gears are just on the virge of being slightly advanced. Notice every mark on the pulleys are a little more clockwise (advanced) than the marks. You will notice a bigger difference on the cam gears when this happens because the gears are bigger. Put a 17mm on the exhaust cam and bring it back counterclockwise til the cams line up and I bet you'll see the rest of the marks are still within close proximity.

I'd run it like that... Good Work!!

 

[jm1080]

Oh ok, just making sure hehe, so it is good like that? Just asking because for instance on the crank sprocket you see mark is closer to the upper > mark as you can see in the pics, but when I go back a tooth or forward 1 tooth it goes way off on all sprockets, so I believe that is the only way to get it in there.

I appreciate the help project, snowboarder, jus and everyone else! Couldn't have done this without you guys!

Will run it like this and post update, hopefully it runs how it used to run, crossing my fingers

 

[snowborder714]

You're being too picky

The marks won't line up perfectly.

Good job!

 

[BigBeans]

Nice, let us know if it resolved your vibration issue

 

[jm1080]

You're being too picky

The marks won't line up perfectly.

Good job!

hehe thanks, just making sure with you guys

Also to start the car do I have to put everything back together?? Can I just put the crank pulley on and run alternator belt only?

Just want to run it at idle to see if it is good before I got installing everything again, just to be sure hehe

 

[johnmarines]

hehe thanks, just making sure with you guys

Also to start the car do I have to put everything back together?? Can I just put the crank pulley on and run alternator belt only?

Just want to run it at idle to see if it is good before I got installing everything again, just to be sure hehe

yes you can but you will not be flowing your coolant due to the waterpump not having a belt. Turn it on maybe for about 30 seconds.... it should be fine.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

yes you can but you will not be flowing your coolant due to the waterpump not having a belt. Turn it on maybe for about 30 seconds.... it should be fine.

Last time I checked the alternator belt also ran the water pump...

 

[jm1080]

ok well I started it up, I accidently put on the pulleys that go on the water pump before putting on the lower timing belt...So I just wanted to test it so I decided not to put it on for the test. So I put on the crank pulley and put on the belts except for the a/c (just to test) I didn't really tension the alternator belt because its a pain and I'am going to take it all off again to put on the lower timing cover, I also didn't put on the motor mount.

So I turned on the car and it seemed ok I guess, motor was vibrating due to the no motor mount, and the belt was squeeling the whole time, really annoying , but I just wanted to see the idle. It seemed good, the vac was at 18 though. Then I turned off car because squeeling was hurting my ears. I'm guessing its good? Maybe since it alternator wasn't tensioned vac was at 18? And engine vibrating a bit was because of no motor mount?

I hope so! Let me know what you guys think

 

[motomattxxx]

18 is normal for a good strong engine at cold idle.

 

[jm1080]

UPDATE:

Car is running perfectly now! I appreciate all the help snowboarder and project especially! All others thanks for help as well!

I feel proud to do this job all by myself and I wouldnt have done it without the tech guides and you guys, so thank you once again

 

[ADrewzki]

Congratulations man. Go enjoy the ride.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

You're welcome!!

 

[asg1089]

nice dude. now you have to come up here and show me the car sometime!!

 

[snowborder714]

Congrats!

 

[Beemer92]

There are 3 points that need aligned - cam gears, crank sprocket, and oil pump sprocket (connected to rear balance shaft).

Here's the steps to set timing, for your reference.
Timing Belt VFAQ

For the 7 bolt engine use the VFAQ stated above and the Timing Belt Tool Kit from Jay Racing. I did mine this way with a new tensioner and had no problems. Good Luck.