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Timing off? Experiencing strange symptoms *PICS*

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jm1080

15+ Year Contributor
640
3
Jun 13, 2006
Boca, Florida
Just did headgasket job and when installing timing belt again, friend who did job for me did timing as well and seems to be wrong. I get bad idle, engine vibration at 3k rpm, and car just feels like crap.

Also when I received my head back from machine shop they didn't install the cam gears..So he had to install them. Now when he installed them he noticed he installed them backwards. Like the exhaust cam gear on the intake side and the intake side on the exhast side. Now he said it doesn't matter because they are the same. Is that true?

Here are pics:

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Wow this is a pain, I rotated crank 6 revolutions to try and align oil pump sprocket, balance shaft sprocket, and camshaft sprocket and they won't line up! And damn its a pain to twist the crank sprocket, it gets tough sometimes and sometimes it goes in smooth, like on the 5th revolution it was so stiff I hit and cut my finger on something near the front bumper :ohdamn:

So how do they line up if I already did those revolutions. I guess Ill keep trying.

Also on the step 11 on trying to loosen tension pulley, it wont buldge! I know I loosen, but the damn thing is like glued on! I hammered down on ratchet holding on to it and nothing!

UPDATE: Kept turning crank over and was able to align balance shaft sprocket and crank sprocket, but why doesn't the oil pump line up???? I took pics. Uploading now.

PICS:

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Couldn't line up the oil pump sprocket, that was the closest I was able to get it after like 12 revolutions. I guess it is because the timing is off a tooth on intake side?

Oil pump is supposed to be at 11 o clock, it is forward a bit to like 12 o clock. What you guys think? I really do appreciate the help guys! As I said this is my first time but I'm enjoying every minute of pain just to learn this! :hellyeah:
 
You did take out your spark plugs to rotate the motor, didn't you? It makes it very easy. It' shouldnt be hard to rotate at all if the plugs are out.

You're definately off time. You need to redo it.
 
Justin,

I do it the exact opposite way that you do it. LOL

-I setup the cams first both at 12 and the marks in the correct positions and put a small c-clamp on each one at the 10 and 2 positions.
-I then pull down on the belt from the intake side (not hard enough to disturb the cam positions) and fit it over the idler pulley (non adjustable one).
-With my hand pulling the tension I then fit it around the oil pump pulley, I get the mark on the oil pump pulley to be just counter clockwise from its mark on the front case. At this point if I rotate the oil pump with just this part of the belt installed it will stop at it's mark when all the tension is taken out of the belt.
-Then, fit it around the crank with the crank slightly counter clockwise from it's mark.
-I then get a 1/2 ratchet and put it on the crank to apply light pressure on the belt. This takes up the rest of the tension in the belt and brings the crank sprocket to it's mark along with the oil pump.
-With the tension on the belt I then slide the belt over the tensioner pulley and adjust the pulley til I can slide the pin in and out of the tensioner without having to compress it.

Then rotate the crank 6 times to ensure proper timing.

I do this because the idler pulley is the one the crank pulls the belt against and needs to be as tight as you can get it to be in proper time. The tensioner pulley just takes up the extra slack. :thumb:
 
You did take out your spark plugs to rotate the motor, didn't you? It makes it very easy. It' shouldnt be hard to rotate at all if the plugs are out.

You're definately off time. You need to redo it.

Oh I never knew that, was getting a workout when rotating crank! So I'm assuming that time is off on the intake cam and on the oil pump sprocket right?

My uncle told me to put a hose or something long in the spark plug hole cylinder 1 to make sure it is TDC, but is that necessary when the dowels on the cam gears are at 12 o clock? Isn't that the same?
 
oh ok, sounds good.

Will continue this job tomorrow, very tired hehe.

So basically what I have to do next is:

1. Take off timing belt

2. Recompress the auto tensioner (need to take off)

3. Adjust the intake cam gear using a wrench (counter clockwise) to match the exhaust cam gear

4. Put auto tensioner back on

5. Put timing belt back on intake side then use clip to hold it as well as the exhaust side

6. Rotate oil pump sprocket to its correct alignment, then put belt over oil pump sprocket to crank sprocket

7. Finish running timing belt to its correct location

8. Then make sure everything is still aligned and pull pin from auto tensioner

9. Take off clips and rotate crank 6 times to make sure everything is aligned

And I'll be all set?! :pray:
 
That's how to do it at a very high level. The link I posted above (post #11) is a very good guide to follow. I'd suggest reading through it at least 3 times. Another good thing might be to read through it while sitting in front of your engine and walk through the steps and act like you're doing what it's suggesting, just to get a feel for what needs to be done.

Here are the tools I use, just in case you want a list.
-two 17mm wrenches (closed end)
-two large binder clips
-Jay Racing timing belt tool kit
-and some sockets/wrenches, but nothing abnormal

Here's a tip on how to set the tensioner pulley.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/152014169-post3.html

Make sure you have a 1/16" allen wrench to put in the tensioner after you compress it. Something like a paper clip just won't cut it.

I personally adjust bolt cam gears inwards so that the inside timing marks line up (and then insert the white tool from the Jay Racing kit to hold the gears in that position). Then I'll loop the belt around them and put the binder clips on.

I'd bolt the tensioner up before starting to loop the timing belt. Same thing with the tensioner pulley, but make sure the bolt is still a bit loose.

After you pull the pin and verify you can still put it back in the hole, rotate 6 times and wait 15-20 minutes and verify you can still put the pin in the hole fairly easily.


Again, most of this is stated in the link above.
 
Thanks for the help snowboarder, I don't have timing tools, and I'm just sliding off the timing belt because I wasn't able to take off the tensioner pulley, then I will take off auto tensioner and recompress it.

So I can just skip the tensioner pulley step right?

And yea I read all these articles so many times that it's basically memorized hehe. I brought my laptop outside so I can read and visualize at the same time.
 
So I can just skip the tensioner pulley step right

Absolutely not. This is the critical step in setting the proper tension. This must be done.

Don't look at the tensioner as setting the tension on the belt. Look at the tensioner pulley as doing this. This makes sense if you think about how you set the pulley. You adjust it so the pin slides in and out easily from the tensioner. Which means when you pull the pin, nothing should really happen to affect the tension on the belt.
 
Oh I think I know what you mean, so I slide off belt and it will be easier to unbolt the tensioner pulley correct? So I have to end up unbolting the tensioner pulley either way, hmm, I will be working on it real soon.
 
Good luck man! I wish I could learn these are so much more complicated than my d16.
 
Ok phew I was able to loosen the bolt on the tensioner pulley, I still leave the pulley there though right?

Now I can take off belt and take off the auto tensioner and recompress it correct?

Then I can align the oil pump sprocket by rotating it clockwise another rotation and it should bounce back counter clockwise to 11 o clock and if not I rotate another rotation until it lines up correct? I appreciate the help you guys have given me, hopefully I can do this right! :pray:
 
Yes to everything. Just make sure to put the oil pump sprocket mark at 12 o'clock and let it go. It'll probably go further than 11 o'clock, but probably not the whole way until the timing mark, so just move it to line up by hand.

Post up if you need help at a certain step. Or post up pictures when you think you have it and we'll help you verify.
 
Took some pics:

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Just a tip to whomever does it with C clamp, I just put it on the floor and used my foot to hold it steady, worked like a charm!

So the timing belt is hanging, tensioner pulley is loose, and the auto tensioner is still off, now I turned the oil pump sprocket to 12 o clock and it bounced back to 11 o clock which is perfect :)

Not sure if it matters but the crank sprocket and balance shaft sprocket is a tiny bit off, and now the intake cam looks ligned up straight but the exhaust one is up a tooth, not sure how that happened, but should I align everything now with the belt off? Like turn crank sprocket over again clock wise to get it perfectly aligned?

Im on step 14 here:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...-how-change-your-timing-belt.html#post1522791

And I'm not quite sure why it states to not have it at TDC, so that means I have to turn crank to get dowels facing down for now until I put the auto tensioner back in and timing belt back on?
 
If the crank is off by a tiny bit, just rotate it to make it correct. If you turn it by itself with no belt attached and the head on (or at least cams in), bad things could happen. If it needs to be rotated counter clockwise, please do this very slowly and gently. If you feel any resistance/contact, stop. My guess is you should be able to rotate it to be perfectly aligned without a problem.

As for step 14, I've never heard of that or done that. I always line the sprocket marks up, then use my 17mm wrenches and Jay Racing cam gear tool and get those marks lined up. Never had a problem.
 
Woah scaring me, so timing belt is off right now and oil pump sprocket is set right, the balance shaft and crank sprockets went off a bit, so I was going to spin the crank sprocket clockwise to re align it without the timing belt on, now if I do that, it is bad?! I started to do it a little bit, but I noticed the cam gears werent moving (forgot belt wasnt on) so I stopped and was going to ask here, but you said I can't do that? What will happen, sort of scared because I did rotate it a little bit!
 
If you reread my post, I said it's ok to move the crank a little bit in either direction if your timing marks are off by a tiny bit. You don't want to go trying to rotate it a full 360* (or even 180* for that matter) as pistons will contact valves. You'll know when this happens if you try as the crank will stop and not go further.


If the marks are off by a bit, rotate the crank to correct this. You'll know if something bad is going to happen as you'd have to really force the crank to rotate. If you have common sense, this shouldn't be a problem.
 
ok back with new photos, trying to align cam gears, having a bit of problem though:

In this pic I clamped belt down on intake gear and moved exhaust gear clockwise, I notice that intake gear still needs to go counter clockwise 1 tooth:

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In this pic I pushed down on belt to see tension (in between cam gears) and cam gears like reset or something:

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In this pic I think I'm getting the hang of how this works, but when I try to align them both, the timing belt is not able to get on the groove to keep them steady..:

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And in these pics, they seemed aligned but I feel a bit slack on the top of the intake cam gear:



How exactly do I fix that because it is inbetween cam gears and if I tension the bottom of belt you won't be able to get rid of tha slack??? :confused:

UPDATE PICS:

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Last pic is farther view to view the slack, I guess it is gone, or maybe very little? Is it good like that? How are marks? Thanks again for help!
 
Yes, those last pictures is the way you want the cams lined up!! Good Work!! :thumb:

That's what the c-clamp or large binder clips are for. To hold the cam gears to the belt that way they don't pop off the belt and screw up your alignment.
 
Thanks! You don't think there is slack on top side of intake gear? Or will even the tiniest bit matter? Don't know why but at first it seemed like it, guess ill move on to setting the belt onto the other parts and ill post pics in a couple minutes!

UPDATE:

Took pics of the lower sprockets:

Crank Sprocket:

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Oil Pump Sprocket:

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Balance Shaft Sprocket:

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Do these all look 100% lined up? Just making sure LOL
 
Do these all look 100% lined up? Just making sure LOL
On the money. The rest of the belt tension will be adjusted by the auto tensioner once it's properly set.

Make sure to tighten the eccentric pulley bolt good so it doesn't work loose!
 
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