1G Stock block 1g fp black.... Want to pick your brains

[SasaniFab]

OK so I have a 1g 6bolt with about 100k on the motor. The car is completely set up tuning wise. My setup consists of a stock 6 bolt, the head had gsc s1 cams with springs and retainers, jmfab intake manifold. My fuel system is 6an front to back with a walbro 255 with pte 1000cc on dsm link (speed density). Like I said im running a fp black with a tial 40mm mvr at 20psi. I am also spraying meth with a devils own kit. The car runs great, im still working on the tune but wot my afr are in the low 11's. Im trying to play it safe and dont want to push it to far. Im aware that the stock headbolts are beefy but I keep getting told I should install arps. I guess what im asking is how much air can a stock 6 bolt handle before lifting the head or blowing a headgasket? Im at the point were If I pull the head...The motor getting built. I have arps and eagle rods sitting in boxes. If I can run 30psi with some arps safely, I might just consider the arps. What would you guys do?

 

[bling5tatus]

Heads don't lift unless you're having a problem not cleaning out the threads in the block where the studs go in. If the head is seated it's fine. If you blow up a head gasket it was because of your tune. People have ran over 600hp on cardboard headgaskets and you definitely do not need to use a metal one. When you use a metal gasket it makes your gasket not the weak point in the system and you'll blow up ring lands before the gasket lets go from a bad tune. I'll take changing gaskets over pistons any day of the week.

Asking what PSI you can run doesn't really matter because 30PSI on one turbo is different power level than on a different turbo. Think 30psi on evo3 16g vs. 30psi on GT45R... big difference in power level there and strain on parts.

I would not consider using stock head bolts on your build, get head studs and a cardboard gasket.

 

[Kapok6]

^He is right.

A $35 fel-pro composite will take you a LONG way if everything is assembled right. And $35 and a weekend to change a blown gasket (which will most likely result from a failure on a part other than the gasket) is much better than a hole through your block and thousands of dollars. I don't know if I will EVER use an MLS gasket.

Also right on in regards to boost. Not all boost is equal. Think more in terms of cylinder pressure.

 

[SasaniFab]

Heads don't lift unless you're having a problem not cleaning out the threads in the block where the studs go in. If the head is seated it's fine. If you blow up a head gasket it was because of your tune. People have ran over 600hp on cardboard headgaskets and you definitely do not need to use a metal one. When you use a metal gasket it makes your gasket not the weak point in the system and you'll blow up ring lands before the gasket lets go from a bad tune. I'll take changing gaskets over pistons any day of the week.

Asking what PSI you can run doesn't really matter because 30PSI on one turbo is different power level than on a different turbo. Think 30psi on evo3 16g vs. 30psi on GT45R... big difference in power level there and strain on parts.

I would not consider using stock head bolts on your build, get head studs and a cardboard gasket.

Took the car out last night and turned up the boost....

 

[bling5tatus]

Good job, just make sure you're being very precise on your timing values and your AFR. You can torch your engine using the "proper" AFR and having timing too far advanced too so keep that in mind. A good way to start out is to set all your highest boost load rows to 7* of timing and move up from there until your car isn't accelerating any faster than before. You, of course, need to have your AFR proper throughout this testing to ensure you don't get into any dangerous spots. I run my car at 15* of timing in the highest boost/rpm areas and it pulls fine but of course this doesn't mean you should just set yours to that, the only way to know if your timing values are right is by putting the car on the dyno and knowing for a fact that it's raising through the rpm faster with new timing settings than it did before. If you're not testing on a dyno you're just guessing really.

This doesn't mean you cannot street tune your car, you just have to be wise about it and accept the fact that it will never be as perfect as you could get it on a dyno.

 

[Vegas Smith]

That's a long way away from that 70lbs/min that is advertised. Keep turning it up until 70! Jk

 

[henrysan]

That is alot of timing for that rpm/load factor, even for a forged bottom end. Be careful!

 

[SasaniFab]

I have the itch so bad after experiencing how hard the car pulls even on "low" boost. I'm sending a block out to be machined for forged slugs. I haven't messed with the stock 1g timing table, everyone keeps saying that it's super aggressive. I haven't seen any knock besides some obvious phantom at low boost. It's really hard street tuning and being safe in my area.

Good job, just make sure you're being very precise on your timing values and your AFR. You can torch your engine using the "proper" AFR and having timing too far advanced too so keep that in mind. A good way to start out is to set all your highest boost load rows to 7* of timing and move up from there until your car isn't accelerating any faster than before. You, of course, need to have your AFR proper throughout this testing to ensure you don't get into any dangerous spots. I run my car at 15* of timing in the highest boost/rpm areas and it pulls fine but of course this doesn't mean you should just set yours to that, the only way to know if your timing values are right is by putting the car on the dyno and knowing for a fact that it's raising through the rpm faster with new timing settings than it did before. If you're not testing on a dyno you're just guessing really.

This doesn't mean you cannot street tune your car, you just have to be wise about it and accept the fact that it will never be as perfect as you could get it on a dyno.

When you say lower to 15* which columns are you referring to? How much of the timing table . Can you post a pic of what you mean. Like if I were to have 15* like your running

 

[Kapok6]

Not sure how accurate it would be but another thing you could do is something like compare the times it takes you to get from 60-90 or 6000-8000rpm and if it's happening in a faster time than the pull before you should be gaining power.

When you say lower to 15* which columns are you referring to? How much of the timing table . Can you post a pic of what you mean. Like if I were to have 15* like your running

He is telling you to lower yours to 7* and work your way up. You can also read plugs.

 

[SasaniFab]

I'm spraying Methonal also , probably what has been saving me

He is telling you to lower yours to 7* and work your way up. You can also read plugs.

Now I understand that, I'm gunna sound really stupid. When I here someone say lower it to 7* what are you talking about. I have the 1g timing tables which has a x and y axis......do you mean lower all the values in the columns to 7* after a certain point ?

 

[henrysan]

I have my timing at 11 at peak boost, and ramp up gradually to 17 peak at 7.5k rpm. I did many pulls and checked my 70-90 times to check for improvement, as well as the estimated hp/tq. Must do your pull in exact same spot of road.

 

[SasaniFab]

I have my timing at 11 at peak boost, and ramp up gradually to 17 peak at 7.5k rpm. I did many pulls and checked my 70-90 times to check for improvement, as well as the estimated hp/tq. Must do your pull in exact same spot of road.

Can I see your timing table

 

[henrysan]

Here is my d.a. timing table

 

[Justin Lauscher]

Anxiously awaiting results, I'm looking into the fp black for my build!

 

[SasaniFab]

Here is my d.a. timing table

Thank you , it's appreciated. I'm going to try this and see how it works for me

I have my timing at 11 at peak boost, and ramp up gradually to 17 peak at 7.5k rpm. I did many pulls and checked my 70-90 times to check for improvement, as well as the estimated hp/tq. Must do your pull in exact same spot of road.

Ahh ok so what your saying is , at peak boost, when your turbo spools that is, at the highest load u start at 11 and work your way up

 

[henrysan]

Yes, when the turbo is spooling then reaches full boost, torque and cylinder pressure is high, and not much timing is needed at those load factors. once boost has settled timing can be gradually added in.

 

[SasaniFab]

Ok, so it's a miracle I didn't grenade this engine. Thank go for meth

Plugs.... Light brown, look ok to me ?

 

[donniekak]

If you're not testing on a dyno you're just guessing really.

This doesn't mean you cannot street tune your car, you just have to be wise about it and accept the fact that it will never be as perfect as you could get it on a dyno.

Actually you have it backwards. Nothing loads your car like it will be loaded when driving than,,,,,,,,,, driving.

A test and tune at the local drag strip with lots off passes and collected data is invaluable.


Not to say that a dyno isn't a valuable tuning tool. Trap speed and weight don't lie though.

There are a lot of fast cars out there that were tuned at a track exclusively.

 

[SasaniFab]

I was also under the impression that lower timing helps spool the turbo?

 

[bling5tatus]

I would not recommend starting out at 11*. You need to see what your motor can handle. If you fill in the timing at the highest boost/rpms to 7* the car is GOING to feel slow when it gets into max boost. You will feel the power drop off when the boost gets to the highest point and the rpms are high. This is the area that you should work on progressively increasing until you get to the point of the car feeling slower AFTER it feels faster.

Aka, 9* is going to feel faster.
12* will feel faster than 9*.
13* might make your car lose some acceleration speed.
That would mean back it down to 12* and leave it there.

You can measure how fast your car goes between rpm points by seeing the time between 4k rpms and 8.5krpms or whatever in the logs. They should be timestamped so knowing if you went between two rpm points at WOT should be apparent there.... or if you went slower.

 

[turboglenn]

I've done tons and tons of tuning without a dyno pushing cars very far into their limits one thing that you should really do is Google and find yourself a good article on reading spark plugs you can tell a lot about where your timing is and where it needs to be for your engine based on the plugs themselves also the plugs will help you spot any detonation but I imagine you're running a system still using the knock sensor

 

[Kapok6]

To properly read the plugs, pop a fresh plug in, do a pull or two, remove plug, replace with the original one, and examine the one that was in during the pulls.

 

[SasaniFab]

Yes, I didn't realize that How aggressive the 1g timing table is , I just felt like if I'm not knocking the motor would be ok. Like I said I'm running meth injection and running on the richer side. I'm gunna use that timing table that he posted and start from there. I don't want to grenade my motor

Like I said, tuning on meth is a whole other thing. I'm thinking I should tune the car off of meth and get it dialed in that way before using the meth. What do you guys think?

 

[gsxeclipse102]

Wouldnt waste your time. Just lower your timing a bit(or upload 2g timing table) and start adding in some boost. Keep the afr around 11.5. Youll make more power with higher boost and lower timing.

 

[Kapok6]

Meth scares me because if something mechanical in the system breaks, you could be saying bye bye to your motor.