Road Racing Transmissions...

[D_Eclipse9916]

I am slowly getting this car completely prepared to go out road racing and trying to make her as relable as possible. Done the usual things for road racing, wilwood 13x1.10 with 4-pistons up front. A 16g that will stay at 16psi, upgraded radiator, removed a/c, etc. all the usual bullshit.


My question is, has anyone done anything with their manual transmissions. I am "pretty" sure my center diff is ####ed, although a shop owner told me when he drove my car that he thought it might be a 2-way in the rear, BUT he could not be certain without taking it apart. So looking at transmissions just in case, what should I do? Should I just rip out the trans and send it to shep to get a stage 3 rebuild, or should I just rip out the center diff and rebuild it? For road racing am I going to need double synchros and torrington bearings?

I am pretty sure I am putting in a manual transmission cooler setup, just to keep her cool, as I have an engine oil cooler setup going in too.

Whats your experiences?

 

[asian312]

Thus far I've raced mine one the stock OEM with the exception of a Shep 4-spider center diff. Change fluids, check for leaks, and was off to the track.

Get the car on 4 jack stands, start it up, and shift into first. If all 4 wheels spin your in good shape. If on the fronts spin your center diff is FUBAR.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

I do get acceleration from the rear, in fact I was driving in the snow and the back end loves to come out under throttle. But I will try the 4 jackstand method.

 

[Ludachris]

I'd call up Shep and see what he recommends. He did my rebuild a couple years back and I couldn't be happier with it. He also did Greg Collier's tranny too. I'd trust him the most.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Something I'd recomend is to run a transmission cooler. This includes buying a pump, lines, etc, but from what I've seen the AWD transmissions get super hot on the track and need to be cooled down or the fluid offers little to no protection.

Fairly easy setup to do, but the only pump i've found that likes to move hot gear oil is the 180$ Tilton one you can get from summit. add in a cooler, fittings, and lines and it should come out to about 280$ total.

As far as the actual trans rebuild, any improved synchros for the 3-5 sets as well as the improved center diff will help.

 

[underradar92]

There was a discussion on trans fluid coolers for road course work, and what I learned is that Greg Collier didn't run one and never seemed to suffer any ill effects from it. The Archer cars have 'em. My stock, high mile trans. shifts very DSM-like on the street, but shifts beautifully on the track, no cooler.

My .02

 

[drivemusicnow]

There was a discussion on trans fluid coolers for road course work, and what I learned is that Greg Collier didn't run one and never seemed to suffer any ill effects from it. The Archer cars have 'em. My stock, high mile trans. shifts very DSM-like on the street, but shifts beautifully on the track, no cooler.

My .02

You are correct... And Greg Collier probably doesn't know very much concerning AWD transmissions because he's never had one.

On the AWD dsms, the transmissions get hot under road course conditions. I can't guarantee it, but I'd be willing to bet than you shear off 4th gear on a modified track car without one. Just a matter of time. Stick a thermocouple or some other random temp sensor in your trans and see what you find.

(and I think I may have brought the discussion up last time as well.)

 

[asian312]

I'd be interested in piecing one together. It is basically a fitting for the drain and fill holes with a pump and heatsink connected with some lines?

 

[schemauer]

Mount the pump in the passenger side footwell. Weld a fitting to the bottom passenger corner of the trans when it is dissassembled - out of the car. This send line should then run through a filter - to the pump - and then empty through a fitting on the top of the tranny.

Using the fill and drain plugs I would not recommend as you need to detach the lines each time you change the fluid.

Put a switch on the dash. I'd also suggest letting the fluid actually warm up for a lap or two before flipping on the pump. Makes it easier on the pump when the fluid is warm and thinner.

My Archer Talon and most road race cars run a tranny cooler...... but I recently rebuilt the tranny in my '95 AWD and it was in excellent shape even after 105,000 miles and probably 15-20 open track events. Redline fluids and frequent fluid changes.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

I ran this by Martin at VIP garage and he just picked up some coolers that will fit between the radiator and FMIC. If your intersted in getting a transmission cooler setup give him a call. He is thinking of making a setup, I am trying to encourage him to do one!

 

[underradar92]

On the AWD dsms, the transmissions get hot under road course conditions. I can't guarantee it, but I'd be willing to bet than you shear off 4th gear on a modified track car without one. Just a matter of time. Stick a thermocouple or some other random temp sensor in your trans and see what you find.

(and I think I may have brought the discussion up last time as well.)

My point was more to say that if one was waiting to install a trans cooler before signing up for a track day, that it's not a do or die mod. It is certainly a good idea however.

My Archer Talon and most road race cars run a tranny cooler...... but I recently rebuilt the tranny in my '95 AWD and it was in excellent shape even after 105,000 miles and probably 15-20 open track events. Redline fluids and frequent fluid changes.

Thanks Scott, I also recommend fresh Redline fluids for every track weekend.

 

[schemauer]

I agree to not wait on the tranny cooler. As I mentioned I ran with no tranny cooler in my '95 AWD for years of open track events with no issues. That car runs mid 12's. When I finally openned the tranny this past year the gears looked good. Redline MTL fluid.

It's really pretty simple to make your own tranny cooler without the markup a shop might charge. You'll need a core, AN lines and fittings and a fluid pump. Most suppliers will have this stuff. I order from Pegasusautoracing.com - they have the Tilton pumps, all the AN lines and fittings you'll need as well as the cores and inlne filters.

The only catch is removing your tranny to weld the send and return bungs on to accept the AN lines. Unless you use the fill and drain plugs - which I wouldn't recommend.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

how bout running the fill and drain plugs until you take out the tranny for a rebuild, its not gonna leak anymore than a regular bung....right?

 

[schemauer]

That might work. It will just be a pain in the ass to do fluid changes as you'll have to disconnect the lines each time.

 

[Elvenhome21]

You wouldn't have to disconect the lines though, you need a tee and valve on the pressure side, open the valve on the pressure side, use a hose attached to the tee/valve and pump it into the drain pan. close pressure side valve, disconnect suction side, put hose in the lube bottle and pump the new stuff in.

Edit: forgot to put in that you need a tee and a valve for the pressure side to drain it without getting covered in oil. that way you can then take off the vaccuum side hose and not have any oil in it when you stick the hose in the bottle with the fresh oil.

 

[schemauer]

I just posted a Tilton pump on EBay - the same one I mentioned above - for use in the tranny cooler setup. Item #330104973944.

 

[JrCRXHF]

This might be crazy but do the Rally guys run tranny coolers and also do the EVO's run tranny coolers why does the DSM need so much more cooling.

 

[Slow old poop]

I've been running road races for two years and Mr Never on Sunday has been prepped for road racing since 2001. I am still on the same tranny with no cooler.

We had to pull the trans to fix a broken ear on the motor last week, and you can still read ACT on the clutch face, so I don't abuse it. No bang shifts, no launches.

I guess the worst thing I do is downshift without blipping. OTOH, I don't downshift to slow the car--I downshift to get into the proper gear. I let the brakes do the braking, so when I shift down I am already at the proper speed for the gear. Sometimes my brakes work so good I have to go directly from 5th to 4th to 3rd before letting out the clutch.

I gotta agree, though: that mutha gets hot. Seems to be just fine for 20-minute sprints, but I wonder how long it would last in an enduro.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

A lot of the serious EVo road racers race with tranny coolers. I actually got the idea from Martin at Speed Factor who did it on his guy's Evos that time trial and suggested I do it, and the more reading I do, it looks like it would be great for driveability, but oil cooler is of course first on my list.

 

[underradar92]

This might be crazy but do the Rally guys run tranny coolers and also do the EVO's run tranny coolers why does the DSM need so much more cooling.

I don't think it's DSM specific to need or not more cooling. We do have a smallish frontal air intake and filing it up with oil coolers, p.s. fluid coolers, FMIC's, ETC., that was not thought of in the original design, while the turbo sits in "dead air" inches away from the block, and radiator, isn't making it any cooler. The newfound popularity of roadracing a DSM, has only unearthed something all other roadracers are already doing.

Most road race cars of any make (and more serious track day toys) have coolers for pretty much every liquid in the vehicle. It does prolong the life/reliability of the various internal bits. Hooray for reliability!

 

[1LE]

Additional cooling is not a bad idea, but I'm another one with a very high track-mileaged vehicle (been tracked since '97) without a manual trans cooler. It was a mid-high 12 second AWD (I say was since it underwent massive changes this spring and hasn't been back to the strip yet, might be slower, might be faster, but is MUCH smoother).

I had the trans redone at 93,000 miles a couple years back (oil pump failure, so we just kept going and checked/fixed EVERYTHING. RRE did the re-build and said that the trans didn't look bad at all. Not really any wear that wouldn't have accumulated in 93,000 miles of pure driving back and forth to work! So, I'd say that if you're 16g or smaller, there's probably no need to be overaly concerned. Yes, it's a good idea, but I personally wouldn't skip an event just because the cooler isn't quite there yet (I will continue tracking the car and have no plans to add a cooler).

 

[Slow old poop]

Additional cooling is not a bad idea, but I'm another one with a very high track-mileaged vehicle (been tracked since '97) without a manual trans cooler. It was a mid-high 12 second AWD (I say was since it underwent massive changes this spring and hasn't been back to the strip yet, might be slower, might be faster, but is MUCH smoother).).

What road racing or autocrossing do you do with this car? It appears from your profile that this was originally a drag racer. We road racers are happy to see that you have given up drag racing for real racing.

 

[mavisky]

His car was orginally a 1 lap car, but now he's done some autocrossing and track days with it.

You gonna make it back over to the Fort Wayne region sometime this year?

 

[1LE]

His car was orginally a 1 lap car, but now he's done some autocrossing and track days with it.

You gonna make it back over to the Fort Wayne region sometime this year?

Yep, a multiple entrant in the one lap (under previous ownership). Many, MANY days out at road courses, plus a bunch of road rallyes. Frequently autocrossed and occasionally rallycrossed as well (hope to do more of that now that we've reworked the car to actually have low-mid range power instead of just top end!). Only been to the drag strip a very few times, not my thing. I like to turn

Not sure if I'll make it out your way this year or not. I'd like to, but money's tight to begin with and these gas prices are only serving to take the knife and twist it Maybe I'll be able to hit a couple of your events at the end of the season again. I haven't even done my FIRST event for the season! I just got the car back again on Friday. The car's been down since the Son of Sno*Drift Road Rally end of January (died the day after rolling over 100,000 miles arriving at home after the event)! Had to have it towed 3 times already and limped it around a couple other times due to a whole chain of "bad luck" type failures!

 

[aguiga]

Mount the pump in the passenger side footwell. Weld a fitting to the bottom passenger corner of the trans when it is dissassembled - out of the car. This send line should then run through a filter - to the pump - and then empty through a fitting on the top of the tranny.

Using the fill and drain plugs I would not recommend as you need to detach the lines each time you change the fluid.

Put a switch on the dash. I'd also suggest letting the fluid actually warm up for a lap or two before flipping on the pump. Makes it easier on the pump when the fluid is warm and thinner.

My Archer Talon and most road race cars run a tranny cooler...... but I recently rebuilt the tranny in my '95 AWD and it was in excellent shape even after 105,000 miles and probably 15-20 open track events. Redline fluids and frequent fluid changes.

So how much extra trans oil do u add with the oil cooler setup on the trans ???