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2G Road Course oil starvation

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I looked into all the trap door stuff and baffling etc, and came to conclusion that wasn't gonna help...hence why I didn't even bother. Add more oil since that is the underlying problem, problem solved. Tell you what, will all the people with custom pans or the Moroso that have added a capacity of 6 qt please tell me how many motors they have burned up and then I will believe you. You have theory but there are so few DSMers that have ran a custom pan there isn't enough data to suggest other wise.
If I remember correctly, the Moroso pan has more baffling and trap doors, that's why road racers use it - in addition to the added capacity.

We both know it's impossible to prove that baffling saves engines in road racing DSMs. Quite a few DSM road racers, like the guys at RRE who were running the Moroso pan early on, either don't participate in online DSM communities these days or don't own DSMs anymore. The data set is small and we can really only go by the data we have cataloged here in the forum over the years (good luck trying to find this data on Facebook), or the offline discussions we've had with other DSM road racers on the subject. With as little real world data that exists in DSM road racing these days, theory is still pretty important when it comes to trying to prevent engines from getting destroyed. The more 4G63 blocks we keep out of the scrap yard, the better. Knowing that oil pan baffling IS something that has been used successfully in various platforms for road racing for many years is worth something.

Let's keep that real world data coming in. The more we can make available, the better.
 
I only posted that video to show the capacity to which the pan is full and now I can add another 1/2qt on top of that which was shown in the video. Since I sumped my pan down further it won't raise the level, it is me adding an additional 1/2 qt that does that. In the video it was stated that the OEM pick up is ~3/4" from the bottom and as I already stated that is proll pretty high for safety standards, so add sticking that thing down another 1/2".....I ain't gonna run out of oil in a corner. I believe someone stated they got away with running 1 extra qt on a stock pan, don't know if I do that, but just throwing it out there.

Also I am in the belief that all that oil in the pan for the most is in there. When you change your oil all the gallies, lifters, filter, cooler, etc still all retain that oil so once it starts pumping it doesn't suck it all up because what ever is picked up is spit right back out, I might concede maybe a 1/2 qt is lost in circulation but not more.
 
I only posted that video to show the capacity to which the pan is full and now I can add another 1/2qt on top of that which was shown in the video. Since I sumped my pan down further it won't raise the level, it is me adding an additional 1/2 qt that does that. In the video it was stated that the OEM pick up is ~3/4" from the bottom and as I already stated that is proll pretty high for safety standards, so add sticking that thing down another 1/2".....I ain't gonna run out of oil in a corner. I believe someone stated they got away with running 1 extra qt on a stock pan, don't know if I do that, but just throwing it out there.

Also I am in the belief that all that oil in the pan for the most is in there. When you change your oil all the gallies, lifters, filter, cooler, etc still all retain that oil so once it starts pumping it doesn't suck it all up because what ever is picked up is spit right back out, I might concede maybe a 1/2 qt is lost in circulation but not more.
I hope your theory is right and that added capacity is all that's needed. Keep us posted with your experiences. I'm just happy to see DSMers still road racing. :)
 
Added capacity is a bandaid at best. A buddy of mine that used to autox with me used his 600hp galant on ground control coils and AGX's with street tires (just to show how poorly this car was setup for autox) and we'd have to fill the pan to over 6qts of oil to prevent it from losing nearly all oil pressure on longer sweepers (60-80mph). The car was entirely wrong for an autox car and still pulled enough lateral G-force to drain the sump. No amount of extra oil capacity would prevent it. We ran a kiggly HLA and smoothed drain backs to try and keep oil in the pan and it was never enough. My 1g on stock suspension and a 205 tire can drain the sump with 5qts on an on-ramp.
 
Your post make no sense, AUTO X do not have long anythings, and if it was a band aid why did you do all the exact same things I am doing, did you burn motors up??

If what you are saying is true than a dry sump is the only real fix, well I ain't doing that. I have done lots of Autox and on-ramp full tilt cornering etc and have never burned up a single motor in over 20 years of running 1gs.

I'll play devils advocate and say you are correct, then it seems that when the oil is draining back it simply is just all to one side of the pan and block above the line of the pan and just isn't returning to the sump area, sounds like we would need two pick ups or some pump that moves oil over to the sump area.
 
I looked into all the trap door stuff and baffling etc, and came to conclusion that wasn't gonna help...hence why I didn't even bother. Add more oil since that is the underlying problem, problem solved. Tell you what, will all the people with custom pans or the Moroso that have added a capacity of 6 qt please tell me how many motors they have burned up and then I will believe you. You have theory but there are so few DSMers that have ran a custom pan there isn't enough data to suggest other wise. Please watch this video and then add another QT and tell me there won't be anything left in the pick up.

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I just watched your video. Did you measure that angle it look super aggressive 35*...which isn't possible. I will conceded that sealing up that gap would help to keep it in the sump area better, and I was contemplating doing that as well, I was just gonna RTV the gap VS weld it all up. I probably will do that now based on your video.
That angle is to represent a force of motion when a car is cornering so imagine its level and the force is doing that, its the similer principle, i also spun around with the pan level and the force also pushed the water out of the pan so its the same effect just different ways of testing/checking it.

I would not RTV anything in the pan, keep that stuff for sealing/gasket, if you want to seal that hole then weld a small angled plate to keeo oil in but allow it to rush over it upon a right hand turn.

When we do evo pans we do a trick recess where it allows a lower opening into the main area but blocks it off so no oil can escape, we do this with no trap doors but its well baffled inside to not need doors, mines similer but i opted to enclose mine fully and oil finds its way back in just fine, been working well for months so it must be working well, plus pressures seem more stable on a long left hand corner which was always when pressure dropped a bit for the worse
 
Moroso pans are baffled, and enclosed.

But as an FYI they do not work with girdles with out a lot of welding /work.
Didn't find a single thread on this till after I had my motor done and the shop went to install the pan. Then after asking around I found 4 others that said they had the same issue.

The new version fixed the ARP issue. And they are still in production I got mine last year from extremepsi.com.

And as for oiling it's any sustained cornerd or amy thing over 1.5g's is what I've read that cause the starvation.

Which 1.5g's is not that hard to hit in a road racing environment

most auto cross and road race guys that do it a lot or have a dedicated track car on top of the Moroso pan also use an accusump setup.

Andrew Brilliant said accusump was to slow and cost him a motor. He's states that the only real way to resolve our oiling issue is dry sump. But for most it's not feasible.
 
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Your post make no sense, AUTO X do not have long anythings, and if it was a band aid why did you do all the exact same things I am doing, did you burn motors up??

If what you are saying is true than a dry sump is the only real fix, well I ain't doing that. I have done lots of Autox and on-ramp full tilt cornering etc and have never burned up a single motor in over 20 years of running 1gs.

I'll play devils advocate and say you are correct, then it seems that when the oil is draining back it simply is just all to one side of the pan and block above the line of the pan and just isn't returning to the sump area, sounds like we would need two pick ups or some pump that moves oil over to the sump area.
Its not just long corners, quick turns left to right force oil to jump about it never has time to settle,

Grab a washing up bucket, put water in and shift left snd right rapidly, see the results and understand why its in issue, its its a containing the oil in its location and thats the whole point in trap doors and enclosed systems, the more oil you trap or contain the less can escape and cause issues for you,

I / we are trying to help you understand this more but your resisting real life facts that has been data proven by many cars, i have also proven it works when i built mine so i know it works, from a big jump is pressure drop to a small drop,
 
Your post make no sense, AUTO X do not have long anythings, and if it was a band aid why did you do all the exact same things I am doing, did you burn motors up??

If what you are saying is true than a dry sump is the only real fix, well I ain't doing that. I have done lots of Autox and on-ramp full tilt cornering etc and have never burned up a single motor in over 20 years of running 1gs.

I'll play devils advocate and say you are correct, then it seems that when the oil is draining back it simply is just all to one side of the pan and block above the line of the pan and just isn't returning to the sump area, sounds like we would need two pick ups or some pump that moves oil over to the sump area.

A long autox sweeper is significantly shorter than a long sweeper on a road course, sure. That just shows that even a "short" sweeper is enough to drain the sump. A second sump wont fix it. There isn't room. Keeping oil in the sump is the solution. I've never burned up an engine but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. I also don't ignore low oil pressure on corners which is why I haven't burned one up, others have.
 
been working well for months so it must be working well, plus pressures seem more stable on a long left hand corner which was always when pressure dropped a bit for the worse

. I've never burned up an engine

Proof what I am doing is going to work, I was already super confident, you just solidified it, thanks.
 
All I can say is this. At NJMP Lightning, through the bowl there, a long, high G, right hander and I saw zero fluctuation in oil pressure. Also saw zero fluctuation at Pocono through NASCAR turn 1. I've had no problems with the moroso pan aside from clearancing it for the main studs and the counter weights on the crank. But other than that......it's been great.
 
I find it funny for the capacity video shown that everyone fails to recall, while running a good percentage of the oil from the sump is being pumped through the engine, not sitting idly in the sump waiting to be used. If I had to guess from checking the dipstick at idle, mine is circulating 1.5-1.7 quarts through the engine. I can only imagine how much is being moved at rpm, and it takes a few seconds to drain back to the sump.

Increasing capacity will help, at keast it can hurt, no argument. But maintaining oil feed to the pickup via 1 way baffles and proper sumping is a better method, necessary to nth degrees depending on your chosen driving style.

A dry sump is ultimate, but not budget friendly to most of us.

I do like seeing kicked out pans with more capacity, but would always recommend baffling the pan as it will maintain oil presence at the pickup tube, where you want it to be, not necessarily hanging out in the kickout you just made on a high-G turn or hard launch.

Just my 2c.
 
Proof what I am doing is going to work, I was already super confident, you just solidified it, thanks.

Once again you read through my post and skipped the parts you didn't want to read.
 
Once again you read through my post and skipped the parts you didn't want to read.
I think he did that with me and everyone else also,
 
An accumulator such as the type that I run should be fine, the Moroso that I use is made with a piston inside of it which keeps the air separated from the oil, also it uses 3/4 inch lines to be sure of enough volume, I cant see how there would be ANY way possible that the engine could require the flow that this thing is capable of putting out, you can fill one up with the valve closed and then fill it with air around 80 psi (which is where it operates when in use) and you will see how far it will launch that few quarts of oil when you crack the valve open and then tell me that the engine needs more than that. Im not sure about the Accusump, there were things about it that I didnt like when I was shopping for an accumulator, Im thinking that it doesnt use a piston inside of it or something, just air over oil, but I dont remember, I just know that I went with what seemed to be the best at the time and maybe thats the problem that Andrew had with his accumulator not working fast enough, if I crack mine open before starting the engine it will empty in about 1-2 seconds with 20w-50 cold oil, so that tells me that it can flow around a quart per second of oil the consistency of honey, faster when warm of course.
 
The accusump most definitely uses a piston. If it didn't have the piston, it wouldn't work. It would just aerate the oil. Which would be bad. Even went to the Canton website to verify that the Accusump uses a piston. An accumulator of some kind is definitely a must have for serious road race guys. I intend on getting one soon.
 
Not all accumulators do use a piston, its not a must, there are designs that are not much more than an aluminum 2 liter bottle with no moving parts, the air will stay above the oil naturally unless its tipped over, those types only work upright, the piston types work in all orientations. Heres a good read on another forum:

https://forum.champcar.org/topic/16006-accusump-or-other-oiling-devices/
 
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Not all accumulators do use a piston, its not a must, there are designs that are not much more than an aluminum 2 liter bottle with no moving parts, the air will stay above the oil naturally unless its tipped over, those types only work upright, the piston types work in all orientations. Heres a good read on another forum:

https://forum.champcar.org/topic/16006-accusump-or-other-oiling-devices/


I didn't say all accumulators use a piston. I just said the Accusump does.
 
Accusump is just a brand name.

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/categories/accusump-oil-accumulator/accusump-units.html

All I'm saying is the Moroso one isn't the only one with a piston. You said you didn't like the Accusump cause it didn't have a piston, when there is a product from Accusump that has a piston. All I'm saying. If you've had luck with the Moroso one, fantastic. One more avenue for people to be able to save their motors. Almost all pro cars I've seen have had the Accusump brand accumulator in the car. That's the one I intend to go with. If what you went works just as well, awesome. Options are good
 
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So I have since installed a 3qt accusump. I have been able to make it to several events with 0 issues since the install. I do agree that this is a temporary fix for the issues I was having and that the end goal will need to be a dry sump once the aero kit gets installed... I have recently installed a new factory oil pan that I welded some trap door baffles into in hopes of helping as well. I have no experience with the new pan yet though as after the install my K&N oil filter apparently decided to come apart in the engine and now I have a high oil pressure issue causing me to have to tear it down again before something bad happens to find the blockage..
 
When you go to sell your accusump.

Hit me up I planned to install one this year. But had to put it on hold till next year.
So I have since installed a 3qt accusump. I have been able to make it to several events with 0 issues since the install. I do agree that this is a temporary fix for the issues I was having and that the end goal will need to be a dry sump once the aero kit gets installed... I have recently installed a new factory oil pan that I welded some trap door baffles into in hopes of helping as well. I have no experience with the new pan yet though as after the install my K&N oil filter apparently decided to come apart in the engine and now I have a high oil pressure issue causing me to have to tear it down again before something bad happens to find the blockage..
 
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