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Road Course oil starvation

Posted by rival, Sep 6, 2017

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  1. rival

    rival Proven Member

    153
    66
    Joined Dec 12, 2004
    aiken, South Carolina
    I have just installed a new factory pan that I had some trap door baffles welded in. getting ready for a race end of the month so I can let you know how it works out.. I also installed the Canton accusump 3qt unit, so heres to hoping that will keep everything lubed up LOL.
     

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    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Road Race Build

    GT30   manual
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  2. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

    3,001
    982
    Joined Nov 1, 2008
    London, Europe
    Just for future use i finished my pan and it holds well in a long fast sweep left corner! I used to see a good oil pressure drop but now it holds fine, and a small drop is seen, the design could be alot prettier and refined i guess but it works and keeps the oil in the pickup chamber now,

    IMG_20180217_164721.jpg IMG_20180217_165147.jpg IMG_20180217_165156.jpg
    IMG_20180217_164704.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST

    Road Race Build

    175 whp   180.1 lb/ft
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  3. gsxitement

    gsxitement Proven Member

    550
    325
    Joined Dec 9, 2002
    staten island, New York
    During the off season I'm gonna do an accusump. Had some bouncing oil pressure through the bowl at Lightning. Changed the oil and over filled a little bit, about half a quart, and it was fine.
     
    My DSM:
    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    11.930 @ 119.000 MPH
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    dragonov_elite and chinola69 like this.
  4. ist dwa

    ist dwa Proven Member

    198
    49
    Joined Nov 5, 2009
    Centerville, Ohio
    Super interesting thread, love the input. I know this may sound dumb, but what would happen if you just say 6 or 6.5 qts of oil in the stock pan?
     
    chinola69 likes this.
  5. turbosax2

    turbosax2 Moderator

    3,324
    122
    Joined Nov 19, 2006
    Gibsonia, Pennsylvania
    I put in at least 5.5 quarts with my stock pan and haven't observed any bad dips on the road course from oil pressure being logged in ECMLink. I don't know my cornering forces, though.
     
    My DSM:
    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    13.543 @ 100.000 MPH
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  6. talon77

    talon77 Proven Member

    105
    23
    Joined Sep 12, 2004
    annapolis, Maryland
    I also put in at least 5.5 quarts in stock oil pan. I think you just don't want toooo much oil such that the crank slaps up on the oil in a way-overfilled-pan so that it creates air bubbles (no good), but I'm not sure if 6.5 qts is high enough to do that.
     
    My DSM:
    1994 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Road Race Build

    345 whp   318 lb/ft
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  7. chinola69

    chinola69 Proven Member

    370
    11
    Joined Sep 22, 2007
    Yonkers, New York
    There is someone that modifies the 7 bolt pan to hold more oil. No modification to the baffles just a larger capacity pan, 1.5 -2 qts more. Would that be helpful?
     
    My DSM:
    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    14.840 @ 0.000 MPH
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  8. jakelandry

    jakelandry Proven Member

    772
    78
    Joined Oct 13, 2009
    Minden, Louisiana
    3d print a 1" thick spacer that bolts between the pan and block, extend the pickup an inch, get the English racing gear and a kiggly HLA and I'd be willing to bet most problems would go away.
     
    My DSM:
    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    11.410 @ 125.490 MPH
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  9. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

    3,001
    982
    Joined Nov 1, 2008
    London, Europe
    Dont forget to modify the DP aswel but the other issue is the pan is already flush with the bumper, if you go any deeper then you out it in more risk of hitting it on something
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST

    Road Race Build

    175 whp   180.1 lb/ft
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  10. ist dwa

    ist dwa Proven Member

    198
    49
    Joined Nov 5, 2009
    Centerville, Ohio
    20181027_182524.jpg 20181102_150114.jpg 20181102_212935.jpg 20181102_230120.jpg 20181103_145748.jpg 20181103_171730.jpg 20181108_200114.jpg 20181108_200144.jpg 20181108_200209.jpg 20181108_200318.jpg 20181108_200419.jpg I am so glad I ran across this thread. I was able to successfully add .5 qt to the engine without a hitch. I said that is half the battle, I went ahead and sumped a stock pan to add an additional .5 qt which I measured out. My welder did a killer job, it cost me $100 to have him weld it and 20$ for the 18ga metal which is what the stock pan thickness is. I'm super proud of this mod, is wasn't too hard but it has to be precise, took me prol 10 hrs. Could I have made it bigger, sure, but I don't want it too low or sticking out...basically wanted an OE look. I will bump down the oil pick up to be about 3/8" from the bottom of the pan when it comes time. The extra sensor is for oil temps. The paint is VHT wrinkle black, no I didn't weld it and of course I tested it by leaving ethanol in the pan full over night checking for leaks. For the record I had to make no adjustments to the dipstick either, will just need more oil to get to the full line. Enjoy the pics.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  11. Ludachris

    Ludachris Founder & Zookeeper

    3,431
    403
    Joined Nov 12, 2001
    Roseville, California
    I know this wouldn't be a high volume selling product, but I wonder if one of our kick ass fabricators like @Archer Fabrications or @MorrisonFab could offer an alternative to the Moroso pan - maybe a modified stock pan like the one @ist dwa made. Just a thought.
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD (sold)

    Street Build

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Road Race Build

    12.450 @ MPH
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  12. ist dwa

    ist dwa Proven Member

    198
    49
    Joined Nov 5, 2009
    Centerville, Ohio
    I thought about it, I made stencils of all the pieces. Problem is that when you weld something like this you need a high level of accuracy for gaps less than 1/8". I am not so sure this would be that exact pan for pan...you know because people like to jack cars up by them. I would charge at least 200$ a piece but I don't think it would be worth my time even if cut them with a water jet....and it would still require a lot of fit and finish for the end user. For the few of us that need this...make your own, I did it so can you. I used a contour gauge to get the exact contour of the pan for 2 of the 4 sides.
     
  13. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

    3,001
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    Joined Nov 1, 2008
    London, Europe
    Its Its not the easiest thing to do,
    We modify evo units at work and its time consuming, near enough a whole day to do 1 pan, moroso so make an evo pan so all they need to do is modify the design to suit the esrly cars
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST

    Road Race Build

    175 whp   180.1 lb/ft
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  14. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

    3,001
    982
    Joined Nov 1, 2008
    London, Europe
    So wha hhave you done to stop the oil coming out at high cornering speeds? As far as i can tell you have not addressed this issue with your pan, just made more oil sit inside it, which will have the same effect once cornering.

    Did you add any baffles or some kind of traps? As if the top is still stock you have not gained anything apart from extra capacity as the top is so open it pours out of the gaps there.
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST

    Road Race Build

    175 whp   180.1 lb/ft
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  15. ist dwa

    ist dwa Proven Member

    198
    49
    Joined Nov 5, 2009
    Centerville, Ohio
    I did none of that because I am of the belief that isn't the issue, the issue is lack of enough oil, adding capacity should solve that, re read this thread if you disagree. I am sure lowering the pick up will also help a lot as well because the factory is probably pretty loose with their spec for the idiots who like to jack cars up by the oil pans.
     
  16. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

    3,001
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    Joined Nov 1, 2008
    London, Europe
    Its a problem even the Evis have, and they have a better pan then we do,

    Deepening the pan helps to a point but the issue is velocity when cornering pushed the oil out and no matter how high it is the vital amount still finds its way out, so yes you have helped it once you lengthen the pickup but its nonot fully solved,
    Look st all other people and comoanys making pans, they all enclose it to stop sloshing around and oil escaping the pickup, they dont just make the pan hold more
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST

    Road Race Build

    175 whp   180.1 lb/ft
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  17. ist dwa

    ist dwa Proven Member

    198
    49
    Joined Nov 5, 2009
    Centerville, Ohio
    Meh, I'm sure this will be fine, this isn't a formula one car. If we want real answers show me what real EVO 1-3 rally cars used to convince me other wise. I don't want to get into a pissing contest but these cars are 30 years old now, I think you might be making a mountain out of a mole hole as we would be hearing of a lot more issues if there was some. I also have a Kiggly HLA mod, cleaned up the oil drain back ports in the head, and polished the inside of the head to help flow back as well.

    It really comes down to lateral G force, I am on a stock 1g body with zero downforce this thing isn't gonna hug corners that hard.
     
  18. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    Joined Nov 1, 2008
    London, Europe
    No no it really is a big issue, many many peoppe suffer eith this issue, some just dont report it but its a thing.

    No clue on the rally cars but i know they wont of been stock thats for sure.

    Nothing has to be high racing levels for it to be an issue, even getting on it on an off ramp for a long turn can cause issues daily, if you look at oil pressure you can see it drop, while it now might not drop as much now enclosing it further will keep that pressure very stable when doing that same corner,
    Since you posted here in the road course snd autocross section its very likely to be bought up to what ever level it needs to be, so F1 no but racing heck yes LOL, so this thread is aimed st the racers and its why i know yours will aid the issue and not fix the issue, like the accusump, its an aid but not a full fix but its works and kinda well in some respects

    So i dont nedd to convince you at all, you just got to be more open minded thats all. We all here to help each other but when something needs a little tweeking in design we all help out and jump in ehen needed
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST

    Road Race Build

    175 whp   180.1 lb/ft
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  19. Ludachris

    Ludachris Founder & Zookeeper

    3,431
    403
    Joined Nov 12, 2001
    Roseville, California
    Moroso makes one for the DSM too (not sure if it's still in production) but from what I remember it won't clear ARP studs. I tried getting them to revise the design years ago but I don't think they ever did.
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD (sold)

    Street Build

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Road Race Build

    12.450 @ MPH
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  20. Ludachris

    Ludachris Founder & Zookeeper

    3,431
    403
    Joined Nov 12, 2001
    Roseville, California
    It doesn't take down force to make these cars handle well enough in high speed corners for sloshing to become an issue. Baffling is widely considered a very effective way to address it, which is one of the reasons why some go to the Moroso pan, at least the road racers I had talked to - I know it was why I was planning on it. The added capacity was just a bonus.
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD (sold)

    Street Build

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Road Race Build

    12.450 @ MPH
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  21. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

    3,001
    982
    Joined Nov 1, 2008
    London, Europe
    yeah for the 6 bolt, it would of been super easy for them to redo the flange for the 7 bolt like they did for the evos, not sure why, perhaps lack of sale maybe, either way it sucks
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST

    Road Race Build

    175 whp   180.1 lb/ft
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  22. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

    3,001
    982
    Joined Nov 1, 2008
    London, Europe
    just so you can see here is a video review of my pan i made, you can see the fluid rushes out even on a basic angle,
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST

    Road Race Build

    175 whp   180.1 lb/ft
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    Strm Trpr likes this.
  23. ist dwa

    ist dwa Proven Member

    198
    49
    Joined Nov 5, 2009
    Centerville, Ohio
    I looked into all the trap door stuff and baffling etc, and came to conclusion that wasn't gonna help...hence why I didn't even bother. Add more oil since that is the underlying problem, problem solved. Tell you what, will all the people with custom pans or the Moroso that have added a capacity of 6 qt please tell me how many motors they have burned up and then I will believe you. You have theory but there are so few DSMers that have ran a custom pan there isn't enough data to suggest other wise. Please watch this video and then add another QT and tell me there won't be anything left in the pick up.



    I just watched your video. Did you measure that angle it look super aggressive 35*...which isn't possible. I will conceded that sealing up that gap would help to keep it in the sump area better, and I was contemplating doing that as well, I was just gonna RTV the gap VS weld it all up. I probably will do that now based on your video.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  24. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    London, Europe
    why do you list launching! your posting this in the wrong thread then, this is not drag racing thread! its road racing not drag racing,

    also bear in mind it dont have this much oil in at the same time, remember when the engine is running its pumping all the oil around thats also in the system and then the head so what sits in the pan when running is not the full amount! so your theory and mind of how the engine and oil sits is quite a bit wrong!

    also again why did you mention launching? your confusing this now with drag racing vs road racing which see's a heck of a lot more oil movement then drag racing does, drag racing needs a simple pickup modification to help,
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST

    Road Race Build

    175 whp   180.1 lb/ft
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  25. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

    3,001
    982
    Joined Nov 1, 2008
    London, Europe
    @gsxitement let us know what differences you saw! maybe your oil pressure didnt drop as much,

    I know when i put mine on i noticed a less drop in oil pressure so it certainly seems to work well, and if it dont then i guess all these high end race cars just do it for the fun of it and waste all this money on research and development for pans or they just go drysump
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST

    Road Race Build

    175 whp   180.1 lb/ft
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    gsxitement likes this.

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