pics of oilpalooza

[sacrileger]

my first look at a 6bolt i bought for parts. but since an engine i was going to fix blew up on me recently; as discussed here:
https://tinyurl.com/jgpzvw6 , i am going to see if i can get this engine running w/o putting a lot of $ or time into it.

so i took the timing belt cover off to check timing alignment and have never seen so much dirty oil mess in this part of motor. there is an oil leak somewhere but i cannot locate the source of the leak as the oil is splattered all over the entire compartment. i've eliminated the auto-tensioner as source.
any idea which seal typically fails on these 6bolts and needs replacement to stop
the leak? here are some pics (btw, it's worse than what the pics show):

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[pauleyman]

Doesnt matter which seals leak. Change them all. You've got easy access. Eben better change the whole front gasket and seals. You can get everything clean. Check that all the correct bolts are there. If there is any mismatching fix it.

 

[sacrileger]

...Eben better change the whole front gasket and seals....

the trouble w/ that reco is that i never saw the engine run, i know nothing about the motor, its history, etc. and i bought it from i guy who bought it from junk yard and knew even less about the motor.

while it would take me less then a day to parachute the motor into a car to see how it runs w/ minimum expense, just my time, it will take $100's and tons of time to invest in an engine that's, possibly, kaput. i still think it's sensible to fix the obvious, like timing (balance shaft in my case) and severe oil leak, and if the engine runs and has decent compression, to worry about the rest. if the engine is junk, it's junk and changing all seals wont make it better. would you not think so?

 

[pauleyman]

Your question was about oil leaks. The seals and gaskets are cheap. You coud probanly clean up that whole side in a few hours. Time to quantify how much time you want to spend.

 

[sacrileger]

Your question was about oil leaks. The seals and gaskets are cheap. You coud probanly clean up that whole side in a few hours. Time to quantify how much time you want to spend.

my concern is that w/o diagnosing the problem in general, and not knowing the source of the oil leak in particular, i am making a huge assumption that the leak in fact is a broken seal.
even if i change all seals, shotgun approach, i still may end up with a leaky motor. sure, if i am changing a particular seal and all sprockets and covers are off, i might as well change all of them. i agree w/ that; but still would want to know where the leak is and confirm i am not fixing something that is not broken.

 

[2gmitsueclipse]

Your taking a risk either way. Personally, I would at the very least drop the oil pan and inspect the bearings and look at refreshing the head. That motor does not look like it was very well maintained anyway and would be a better rebuild candidate anyway. I doubt you're going to find the source(s) of all that oil since you have no way of building oil pressure. You can get an engine gasket set on Rockuto spending $65-100. You will need most of them anyway to fully assemble it. Pauleyman was suggesting replacing everything since it is all easy access at this point. Would be a shame if you just replace some oil seals, and your front case has a leak. It is your call obviously, but there are just too many possibilities for leaks in this area.

Do it right, do it once.

 

[sacrileger]

Your taking a risk either way. Personally, I would at the very least drop the oil pan and inspect the bearings and look at refreshing the head. That motor does not look like it was very well maintained anyway ...

what you suggested is logical and prudent. and yes, damned if i do and damned if i dont. i guess i am using this forum as a sounding board. my thinking, based on my experience writing software, is this: it takes 10% of the time to write 90% of the code and then it takes 90% of the time to finish the code (debugging).
anyway, i guess i am looking for the sweet spot = to get 90% of the job done for 10% of time investment. and i dont have enough experience working on these engines, other than hobby, to make that call.
as i am looking at the engine, it's non=turbo, it most likely was not abused. and as you know these engines can take a lot of abuse before they give. the oil is clean. the spark plugs look decent - doesnt look like motor burns oil; but there's also this, as i am deliberating: re the oil leak - the timing cover was completely chewed up by belts, improperly attached, big gap at the bottom, between the cover and engine block, so what if some moron, when the car was oil sprayed, blasted chassis oil under the timing cover? sure the motor looks neglected, i.e. the balance shaft is out of sync w/ the oil pump sprocket, all timing gears dirty, etc. but that still is not proof the engine needs to be rebuilt.
sure, i didnt think of checking the bearings (because of above, and because it isnt turbo) but ii can check them since that is easy.
so, i guess my question is what do i get done at this point to get a big bang for whimpering buck? do i replace all seals knowing there was a pretty good chance the timing gears were oil sprayed along w/ the car? do i double check bearing, refresh the head, etc. having no evidence this motor was driven hard? where is the sweet spot? because i dont know.

 

[ThunderChild]

like has been said before, a couple hours, some degreaser and brake cleaner, and new gaskets, and you have a clean, freshened up front of the motor. its going to cost maybe $100-$150, and give you peace of mind, plus its way easier to do out of the car.

checking the bearings and doing a compression test is std when getting a new motor. despite using this forum as your sounding board, you should really consider the advice that is given, as we've all been through it at least once so we speak from experience 95% of the time.

to me, it just looks like your front cover is leaking from some bolts. mine did the same thing when i had a loose bolt, it slung oil every where.

 

[Dsmkauai]

Needs to be retimed too. The oil pump isn't lined up correctly

 

[sacrileger]

at minimum, i am relieved that, in fact, this is a legit leak that's been seen before:

like....
to me, it just looks like your front cover is leaking from some bolts. mine did the same thing when i had a loose bolt, it slung oil every where.

i've already started convincing myself that the whole front section got oil sprayed thru the bottom timing chain cover along with the car because the oil is spread around so evenly. but if this is what it looks like when oil leaks into timing sprockets, then i digress.

so now the question is what type of oil seal kit am i looking for to redo the front. is there a standard name for it so i get all i need as opposed to just a subset?
next, now when the can of worms is open, where do i stop? what about the water pump? replace as well "just to make sure"?
what about the oil pump, check clearances, etc and replace?

 

[ohlegend]

I was in the same position as you. I bought a car that wasn't running, and I started replacing everything and refreshed the head. I did nothing with the block and it came back to bite me when it blew up. If I was you replace the timing components, gaskets and seals, and the water pump too. Like Nate said, Do it right, Do it once. - Especially because the engine is out of the car and you have easy access.

 

[2gmitsueclipse]

Like stated before, try Rockauto. The gasket kits are $65-100 for a complete engine set (upper and lower). Water pump will be cheap if you go with Gates or GMB. It is such a pain to do anything on this side of the engine because it is so close to the frame rail. Now is the time to change all of it.

 

[GST with PSI]

my concern is that w/o diagnosing the problem in general, and not knowing the source of the oil leak in particular, i am making a huge assumption that the leak in fact is a broken seal.

You'll need to put some time and money into this, or just don't bother. "A lot" of money is subjective, but you'll probably be in the $500-$600 dollar range to do the bare minimum.

What these people are trying to tell you is you don't need to find the leaking seal. The leak is undoubtedly coming from a seal on the font of the motor. If you replace them all, the leak will be gone. And, you should be replacing them ALL, not just the leaking ones, which again, makes finding the leak a moot point.

You should replace ALL the seals, gaskets, timing components, and the water pump at a minimum. Personally, I always replace the head gasket and do a BSE as well, but I wouldn't say those are required. I've literally done this dozens of times, and it can be done for fairly cheap depending on the parts you want to use.

As far as not investing a lot of time, you'll need to suck it up and commit to doing it right (which takes time) or I'd say just don't do it at all. It usually takes me a month or so to tear everything down to a bare block, clean everything and reassemble. To give you an idea: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/gstwithpsis-galant-vr4-820-1000.492537/page-2#post-153594103

Alternatively, you can attempt to identify and replace the seals that are leaking now, and throw it back in the car until the others start leaking...At which time you'll be replacing them anyways when the motor is in the car and things are 10 times more difficult...Your call.




Once you decide to invest some time and money, my recommendation would be to go to Rockauto and order all the stuff you need. You'll save the most money that way, and for an economy rebuild it's the best deal without sacrificing reliability. Below is a list of the stuff I would typically buy for a stockish type economy rebuild. Now, you can get as crazy as you want with this, and add OEM or aftermarket parts in place of the ones linked below. But, the stuff below should at least net you a reliable and leak free engine build.

I am probably forgetting a thing or two, but the stuff below is the bulk of what you need. You'll probably start building and realize you need an additional gasket or two, so just pick that stuff up at your local parts store.

Additionally, you can go through the Rockauto catalog and purchase other brands to reduce cots. I typically stick with the Fel-Pro items, because I know they work and I've had good luck with them in the past. Also, some of the kits I linked below will net you with a few duplicated gaskets/seals. I like to order the seal kits whenever possible because it's just easier, and I like to have the extra stock on hand anyways. But, you can order each seal separately so you only get what you absolutely need and save a few bucks. I'll tell you though, the cost is negligible, and you're better off just ordering the kits.

Timing belt/water pump/pulleys: http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4945215&cc=1205570&jsn=391 or https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=28040&cat=0&page=3

If you don't order the ExtremePSI kit, you also need to order the Hydraulic tensioner seperately (Gates): http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=3819675&cc=1205570&jsn=401

Rear main: http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=122716&cc=1205570&jsn=441

Front main (and some duplicates, but cheap so whatever): http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=128135&cc=1205570&jsn=439

Oil pump/front case/OFH seals: http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=477247&cc=1205570&jsn=432

Head gasket + top end gaskets/seals: http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=124692&cc=1205570&jsn=459

BSE: https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=17650&cat=0&page=1

Turbo gaskets: http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=123533&cc=1205570&jsn=463




I'd also recommend picking up all new drive belts, spark plugs, wires, etc. Basically, you want to address any and all maintenance items possible while the motor is out. LMK if you have any questions.

 

[92AWDHX40]

So much easier to clean and replace things with the engine out. When ever I can i replace things as I need to I've learned some lessons over the years when in doubt replace pumps just spec the oil pump gears out replace gaskets. And timing pulleys I didn't ok old engine and had timing issues.

 

[sacrileger]

.... and this is exactly what i was afraid of when i looked at my 6bolt:

..., you'll need to suck it up and commit to doing it right (which takes time) or I'd say just don't do it at all. It usually takes me a month or so to tear everything down to a bare block, clean everything and reassemble..

my hope, with this post, was to solicit this forum for some feasible shortcut; and none was offered.

in any case, thank you for the extremely helpful list of parts you provided for this summer project.

i suspect it'll be like peeling an onion - once the work starts, there will be no justification to not spec and replace everything. and once the engine is done, no doubt there will be no good reason to bolt on the old clutch and tranny w/o it being checked and serviced too. and then the engine bay may as well get cleaned up too since the motor and tranny is out. am i sort of seeing where this is going...?

 

[2gmitsueclipse]

and once the engine is done, no doubt there will be no good reason to bolt on the old clutch and tranny w/o it being checked and serviced too. and then the engine bay may as well get cleaned up too since the motor and tranny is out. am i sort of seeing where this is going...?

You know, there was a wealth of knowledge given to you. You asked for advice about an unknown engine, and that is what you got from those that have been there, and done that. If the clutch and trans were in your car and known to operate as they should, then I see no reason you have to inspect everything. No one said rebuild your whole car while swapping the motor. All the time you are on here complaining about it would be wasted time you could be cleaning .

 

[pauleyman]

If you want a quick and dirty option then replace the seals and timing components and bolt it up. You have to choose what you are willing to risk. We cant task that risk for you. If you have a huge time constraint or money constraint then tell us that. We can guide further if that's the case but im sure the risks will also be pointed out. A serious cleanup job can be done in a weekend. The last car I did for my son was a head replacement car. Full seal and water pump replacement. 2 weekends. Wouldve been faster if I wasnt coaching him

 

[sacrileger]

that about sums it up:

.... if you have a huge time constraint .....then tell us that.....

huge pressure to find feasible solution:
i have a talon with trashed engine ( https://tinyurl.com/jgpzvw6 ) in our garage that the family is desperate to use this summer, one mystery engine (topic of this post), one plymouth laser that is waiting for a motor, no more room in my driveway for another corpse, neighbours that dont appreciate anything older than 2010 and family that is losing patience. so i better come up w/ some plan quick or let the junk yard have it to keep peace here.

 

[sacrileger]

... All the time you are on here complaining about it would be wasted time you could be cleaning .

nobody's complaining here, at least i am not. and it certainly was not my intention to make that impression. perhaps that's just you projecting your own issues here. there's no need to get mean just because you have been here since 2005, posted 1585 times and have 345 likes. it's friday. just take the meds you missed this morning, fix yourself a drink and relax.

 

[2gmitsueclipse]

perhaps that's just you projecting your own issues here. there's no need to get mean just because you have been here since 2005, posted 1585 times and have 345 likes. it's friday. just take the meds you missed this morning, fix yourself a drink and relax.

No issues here. Being able to identify numbers will really help you out finding torque specs when your assembling that motor .

 

[19Eclipse90]

If it was me and I really wanted a quick and dirty check, pull the timing belt off, pull the camshafts out, and do a leak down test. This will tell you how well the cylinders are sealing and will provide you with a fair indication of what shape your engine is in. If that checks out, I would check to see how easily the crank turns over by hand. If it turns over easily, there are some options. Again, if it were me, I would redo all the seals on the front of the engine, reinstall the camshafts, and do a timing belt/water pump job. Neither the seals nor the new timing belt components and water pump are technically necessary, but they are a hell of a lot easier with the engine out of the car and it is unwise to try a potentially good engine with potentially bad timing components. Then, reinstall the engine and give it a try (still no guarantees at this point).

But I don't see myself in that position anytime in the near future so I'd likely do what has been suggested to you above. Take it for what it is worth.

 

[GST with PSI]

.... and this is exactly what i was afraid of when i looked at my 6bolt:


my hope, with this post, was to solicit this forum for some feasible shortcut; and none was offered.

in any case, thank you for the extremely helpful list of parts you provided for this summer project.

i suspect it'll be like peeling an onion - once the work starts, there will be no justification to not spec and replace everything. and once the engine is done, no doubt there will be no good reason to bolt on the old clutch and tranny w/o it being checked and serviced too. and then the engine bay may as well get cleaned up too since the motor and tranny is out. am i sort of seeing where this is going...?

I wasn't trying to be a prick, but I do sometimes come off that way over the internetz. I think you get the point of my post, which was not intended to bust your balls.

Sadly, there's really no shortcut. You may save time now by simply slapping the motor in the car as-is, or with minimal repairs/maintenance. But, that time will eventually be paid on the back end when the car breaks down...Which will probably be at the least opportune time imaginable. I'm not sure how long you've been in the "DSM game", but these cars are notorious for breaking down if not maintained properly.

Whenever I do a build, it typically turns into the onion-like chain reaction you're describing. I'll start with 5 parts to clean and refinish, then 100 parts later I'm still cleaning. But, I'm borderline OCD when it comes to building cars, and I only want to do shit once. That being said, you can skip a lot of cleaning and painting, and just settle with getting the major grease and grime off. If you're in a time crunch, clean everything good enough to reassemble and go.

As far as replacing parts, like I said above, at a minimum I'd do the stuff I posted. I'd say if you're not budgeting around $800-$1,000 bucks to do this from start to finish, you're probably going to come up short.

To keep the neighbors off your back, take the Laser off of the blocks/jackstands/whatever while it's in your driveway. If it's sitting on its wheels and has a valid plate on it, there's not really shit they can do unless you have some retarded HOA rules they can ram up your ass. After it's on its wheels, get a car cover (one that allows you to see the plate) so it's less of an eye sore. If my neighbor's driveway looked like a junkyard, I'd probably be bitching too.

Here's the bottom line man, you're undertaking a project that's ONLY going to take time and cost you money. If you're short on either, you may want to think about liquidating all of your busted DSMs and invest in something that's running and needs less work. Or, perhaps put that cash aside and build on it until you can invest in a DSM you can enjoy out of the box.

I know this isn't the type of stuff that makes you super excited about your future build. But, better to get let down now then wait until you're balls deep in the build running out of time and money far short of completion.

 

[sacrileger]

I wasn't trying to be a prick,...

Sadly, there's really no shortcut. .....how long you've been in the "DSM game", but these cars are notorious for breaking down if not maintained properly.

Whenever I do a build, it typically turns into the onion-like chain reaction you're describing.
... balls deep in the build running out of time and money far short of completion.

first of all, there was nothing "prick" about info you provided. in fact, you confirmed what was on my mind - that once i start, there's no point doing half-ass job; or quitting. that actually was very decent assessment of things that should be done and where it's going to go.
i've been in the "dsm game" since 1994. since university. i was surprised w/ this statement:
"...these cars are notorious for breaking down if not maintained properly."

i've had no problem for as long as i serviced it myself. then i was away, my wife took it into a garage, they f**ed up, which led to a law suit, i got paid damages but the car has not been running since. finally i was going to put the laser on the road and the donor car i bought for this project blew up on me recently. so i got now two corpses and nothing to show for it. other than the two corpses.

in any case, you've pretty much hit all the issues on their head - "as if you were there". the externals (family, neighbors, cars/parts all over, etc) are primary - the build itself is secondary. family doesnt support this project as we have three other cars on the road and it puzzles them why i am turning upscale neighbourhood into a trailer park environment with my old dsm junkers. i got myself into a real pickle with this recent purchase ( https://tinyurl.com/jgpzvw6 ) which blew up in my garage. i am still sore about it; especially because i dont know how the timing skipped on me before i could figure why the engine was so rough. btw, if you read what happened, i actually tested the intake manifold afterwards and there was indeed coolant leaking into the intake via broken seal. anyway, i was going to fix the 7bolt engine in the talon, put the motor into the laser, take some parts off the talon and get rid of it. and have my old laser back to remind me of all the fun i had w/ this car in university; and after.

so anyway, i think i got pretty much all the relevant info from all those that contributed and opined on this saga of mine and i am faced with the old "all or nothing" dilemma. i'll keep posting on my progress. or lack thereof.
thanks for framing all the issues i should consider.

 

[Mischif]

A lower conversion gasket set only costs $35 bucks from autozone. All that could be installed within 2-3 hours with an engine on a stand. Add in a leak down test. If you have almost no budget, to me thats more than worth the risk to do that and throw the engine in a car and test out how the motor sounds/feels. Then from there either replace timing components/water pump, or start saving for a rebuild. Obviously if you plan to put some power through it then thats not the wisest route to take.

 

[sacrileger]

If it was me and I really wanted a quick and dirty check, pull the timing belt off, pull the camshafts out, and do a leak down test. ....., I would check to see how easily the crank turns over by hand. If it turns over easily, there are some options.

thanks for the suggestion. so true. leak down test wasnt even on my radar. i am still stuck on the old fashion cranking to check compression.

this is a question (not contention) to get better understanding:
what type of result would i get if i left the cams and timing belt on and started with piston #1 at compression cycle TDC - essentially ensuring that all four valves on cyl #1 are closed (rocker arms free to move) and checked for % leakage. then rotate the crank to position piston #2 at tdc, check for leakage, and so on. and then compare the % difference between each cylinder.
the reason why, at least in my mind, it would appear to work is that from my observations when i check cylinders for damage and/or roundness, the problems are typically found at the top, not bottom of the cylinder; perhaps because that's where most of the pressure and work is concentrated. so my thinking goes in favour of having to check for leakage in each cylinder while the piston is at tdc because that's the place where i would lose the most pressure, right at the top. w/o the cams and belt, i wouldnt know where the pistons are.
or am i completely off in my reasoning and attempt to check leakage with each piston in exactly the same place - tdc?

edit: just realized, i would know where the pistons are even w/o cams and timing belt by taking the spark plugs out, inserting screwdriver, rotating crank, observing screwdriver position - so ignore all the above.