Need input on 14b 2g turbo plans.

Posted by Murdertalon, Oct 4, 2017

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  1. Murdertalon

    Murdertalon Proven Member

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    I picked up a 14b 49178- 01010 - 12fin compressor side with what looks like an evo3 exhaust side 6cm housing. No in and out play, little side to side but Ive since read that is normal for these turbos.

    I'm not in a rush to bolt this thing on and see what it can do, I do eventually want to give it a go though. From what I have researched so far the 14b with the 6cm exhaust side is a great setup for this turbo.

    Wanting to put things together properly what injectors are a good fit for this thing? Is it safe to run with stock injectors at ballpark 15#? I do plan on getting ECM Link and need to do some other work on the car already before I even think about using this turbo.

    As far as plans go this will be the largest turbo I will go to period. Quicker spool is ideal, I want around 300-350?hp I would prefer that the car lasts longer without breaking things and so far I have fixed many many non engine related issues. Some engine related too.

    If anyone is familiar with how this will spool vs the t25 I am curious. I like the silly fast spool of the t25 and from what I read you still get fast spool with a 14b and if you use the smaller 6cm exhaust it makes it sing. I read some posts saying the 7cm will reduce spool time too much which I don't want.

    Will I be looking at needing a higher flow fuel pump and or Aftermarket fuel pressure regulator I mean maybe for tuning but even to run it?

    I have ridden in a 1g stock with cranked up boost on the 14b doing autocross and it was unreal! It was running about 20# but it spooled amazing and the car pulled amazing for the short road work. I just put koni's and eibach pro kit springs in.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    T25   manual
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  2. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

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    I ran around 18psi on my old 14b laser with stock injectors. You will probably want to upgrade the fuel pump along with the wiring. I would also get an afpr but you may not NEED it on a 2g. I think there something about the 2gs having higher base fuel pressure to start with. I don't know, I've never owned a girl car. Just kidding dude. An afpr and fuel pump are so cheap there's no reason to not get them.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    16g   manual
    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD (sold)

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  3. Murdertalon

    Murdertalon Proven Member

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    heh got a good laugh out of that. One of my buddy's likes to get on about how all the strippers back in the day drove 2g eclipses. I was never much for the lines on the 1g's, but they have grown on me over the years. The 14b is clearly a better turbo.

    I did a rewire, I also replaced my fuel pump with a newer stock one but I twisted one of the hard lines a little bit, something I have been meaning to fix. The rewire, new pump & fuel filter / it fires up at the flick of the key now - never did that when I got it. I also ran a secondary ground. - I am not against getting a higher flow one if I need to, cost is why I haven't already. Needed new suspension parts.. What are the injectors cc on a stock 1g? 450 on a 2g afaik. I read you can go to a 155lph without a afpr, but I know using one is the proper way to do things.

    At what point is a FMIC required? I may look into one eventually, but I rather like the side mount I have now. It doesn't draw attention. I suppose I can get ECM Link and then install the trubo and see what fuel trims look like, then I will also need a wideband?
     
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    T25   manual
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  4. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

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    I think the 2gs are 450 also. My old 14b car did not have a fmic and it ran really well. Joe Bucci made 500hp on his hta68 with sidemount. Of course, it will heatsoak fast so performance will decrease after a run or two. You will only need a wideband if you have a way to tune the car. Do a little search on how to run a 16g on a 2g and you'll find all the correct info you need for the 14b. It's been a while since I thought of this stuff.
     
    My DSM:
    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    16g   manual
    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD (sold)

    16g   manual
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  5. 2gGst98

    2gGst98 Proven Member

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    I just switch to my big 16g but I ran my 14b for 2 1/2 years. At first I would hit 100% inj duty cycle at 16 psi would get a hit or 2 of knock with above 16psi. I then re wired my pump and was able to get 18psi with 97% IDC (injector duty cycle) and 0 knock. If you are not putting in DSM link yet get a pocket logger to make sure your safe and turn your boost up. Not all cars are the same so please get a pocket logger if no link yet.

    On my t25 I would hit full boost at 2500 give or take. with my 14b I was at 3k, that was with a 7cm, so maybe little lower with your 6cm, now with my big 16g I hit at 3500-3700 at 25 psi, with a rewired evo 10 fuel pump I got for 20 bucks on EVO website.

    Glad to see you are taking care of maintenance and not in a rush to install it. have fun bud
     
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  6. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Proven Member

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    I am running a 255 pump on a stock auto regulator. Hasn't seem to over run it yet. I have a AFPR but thought I would just run the pump to see if it would take it and so far so good on my 92 Auto car.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    14b   automatic
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.620 @ 108.460 MPH
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.612 @ 107.760 MPH
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  7. iceguru1114

    iceguru1114 Proven Member

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    Here's a handy little tool from FIC to help with the injector sizing (and total flowrate):

    https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator

    Quick note about your power goals. If you want 300-350 whp with a 14b and you want the car to be reliable, you might want to temper your expectations a bit. Without writing a dissertation, I can tell you that the best way to get that kind of power with a 14b without nitrous oxide is going to involve really pushing the turbo hard and taking advantage of the stoichiometry of E85 or some comparable fuel. In summary, this power is possible with a 14b, but it's difficult to achieve and it will probably involve wearing out the turbo pretty quickly.

    I think high 200's is a pretty reasonable expectation for a reliable 14b setup. However, if you're dead set on 350 whp and you don't feel like messing around with E85 or rebuilding your 14b every 10 miles; FIC 1000 cc injectors, walbro 255 lph pump, upgraded FPR, and a 16g is a pretty inexpensive and reliable way to get there from a hardware standpoint.

    IMO the 14b is appropriate in 3 scenarios: 1) Street car on stock tune or with a mild bump in boost 2) If you're one of those cooks going for the 14b drag record (which actually sounds like fun to me, personally) 3) If you're racing in a class that does not allow you to upgrade the turbo (unfortunately, I'm stuck in this situation, personally)

    Hope some of this knowledge helps, and best of luck to you :)
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Autocross Build

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  8. Murdertalon

    Murdertalon Proven Member

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    Thanks, I can dial expectations back a little to be reasonable :) I wouldn't mind high 2xx hp range at all. I like to drive spiritedly and will be focusing this build on autocross style (not strictly) mostly spirited mountain road driving nothing crazy fast that's not the goal. At some point down the line I will have to ride in someones car with a 16g, but I prefer quick spool up and am willing to take a lower top end and HP hit for that. You are probably right that it would be nicer to the trubo to keep it a little more conservative and I have no problems with not being crazy fast. I was kicking around the idea of going to a 16g, but the more I read about shorter track work and low end it seems more logical for my goals to be on the 14b. The guy I rode with autocross in his 1g constantly beats on that 14b at 25# and has been auto crossing it for years I was shocked, but that is also testament to how strong factory 14b turbos really are.

    If the heat soak becomes something that sends engine temps up a bit I will go to the FMIC dark side. I just don't want that appearance other than the BOV sound coming from my car I want people to think its a NA. I put some tow strap points on my car, but they are the nylon kind and can be tucked away so it doesn't look like I'm some punk. I am also old enough to not be looked at by the local authorities as someone up to no good and I have a CDL so I don't play around on the streets.

    I also have a really solid modded coolant cap with an extremely good seal as well as an EVO9 thermostat which has a larger flow area in center section. My temps are perfect.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    T25   manual
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  9. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Proven Member

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    And I'm now trying to "push" a 13b on my auto 1g.........just pokin fun! :p
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    14b   automatic
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.620 @ 108.460 MPH
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.612 @ 107.760 MPH
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  10. Murdertalon

    Murdertalon Proven Member

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    You lost me man? are you? I mean the 13b still flows more than the t25 right? The 14b that I rode in, I was shocked at how well it performed.

    This information is quite helpful. I can live with a 3k spool point thats about where my t25 comes on now, maybe its not performing optimally.. I also got a test pipe on the way so that might allow better flow I need to examine my CAT as it is likely the stock 20 year old one and who knows how that looks inside. Right now my car is quick, but not as quick as I feel it should be unless I really rev the piss out of it. I will have to post about how the car runs with either a high flow cat or a test pipe later.. Now I am wondering how much I might gain from just addressing that issue.

    I have torque for android and a ELM327 I havent looked for a knock readout on there, but it might have one? It does show timing advance or retard.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    T25   manual
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  11. Dsmkauai

    Dsmkauai Proven Member

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    I love the 14b turbo to be honest. I still have the stock one on my gvr4 paired with some hks 264’s. Has a great power band and spools fast. I’m tuned to 20psi and plan to go alittle more with race gas once I drag race it again. Right now I’ve been enjoying autox with it what a blast. When setup and tuned right the 14b has a lot of potential and are really fun. Compared To the t25 it’s 100 times better. It has a great power band and if done right will hold boost till redline. You can actually run 18-23psi and not kill the turbo in a week. Easy and cheap to rebuild and hit pretty damn good for a small snail. Get a nice vrsf fmic setup and the other supporting mods and your good to go bro ;) trust me you won’t miss the t2small LOL. I believe with my current setup at 22-23 psi I could hit low 12’s possibly high 11’s with it. At 17psi I ran 13.7@101 with no tune just 550’s and a 2g Maf and fmic LOL. Once my new shell is here to replace my poor dead gvr4 I’ll be at the track trying :).
     
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  12. Murdertalon

    Murdertalon Proven Member

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    I hate to admit this, but last time I was at the track (about a year ago) prior to many things I have addressed since, my best time was 15.9 full weight with stuff in the hatch, but I was running hot at the time (since been fixed) *might have been above 220 (pretty sure it was because wasn't logging) and I found other issues.. It just didn't seem like it was running right at the time 3rd gear had very little power and top end in higher gears wasn't any better. I got matched and beat by the nose of a 2g neon.. Granted it was half gutted and had no air filter, but still. I never hit redline and some other DSM's there that day told me they tend to bounce off of redline a lot. I have since also upgraded to a fluidamper pulley which has eliminated the weird lugging range I would hit driving around town. Oh and that was on totally blown out suspension which didn't help launching.
     
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    T25   manual
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  13. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Proven Member

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    No the 14 is a nice little turbo. I was rockng a HX40 but that car is down now. I am stuck with my little 13 on a stock auto car.....and I'm bummed.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    14b   automatic
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.620 @ 108.460 MPH
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.612 @ 107.760 MPH
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  14. Dsmkauai

    Dsmkauai Proven Member

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    So it’s time to get back to the track haha ;). And ya I feel ya my car was in similar condition. My gvr4 had been sitting abandoned for about 9 years. Was on blown suspension and dry rot crap tires LOL. Also didn’t have any brakes and used the ebrake to slow down haha. Thankful that’s all fixed now sorta.
     
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  15. Murdertalon

    Murdertalon Proven Member

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    That's not so bad, if its running then your still driving a dsm. Can you push the 13b at all or not worth it? My DD is a NA lancer because mpg and reliable comparatively.

    Maybe the same prior owner had my talon too.. The brakes were seized in the rear to the point it would squeel if you touched the brakes for a good 30sec because the rears were locking and not releasing. The front pads literally fell apart when I took them off -the pads fell off the metal. I was scared I drove it at all like that! I did take pictures and they would be on my profile already, but the pic limit in number and size ugh.
    I bought the best ceramic brakes that autozone sells.. So far so good. Came with a shim kit I used and the pads have a rubber backing which reduces noise.

    My car before the DSM was a used marked title 1g neon and it taught me quite a few things about working on my own cars. I also spent a deal of time ironing out poor mechanic work that was performed on it just like my dsm...
     
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

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  16. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Proven Member

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    Not really. I added a MBC, and it's open 1 click, maybe doin 12lbs boost. It warms up the air nice tho!
    It is pooped out by about 5500. :(
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    14b   automatic
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.620 @ 108.460 MPH
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.612 @ 107.760 MPH
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  17. iceguru1114

    iceguru1114 Proven Member

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    Man, what a boner-killer. That sounds awful.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Autocross Build

    14b   manual
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  18. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Proven Member

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    Well when I am used to running the Red Talon 8500 on 40lbs of boost and pulls like a dam freight train or more, then going to the 92, stock, auto....Yeh, it isn't the same in any way but I am still driving a DSM. I better quit talking about it or it will belly up too. OMG
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    14b   automatic
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.620 @ 108.460 MPH
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.612 @ 107.760 MPH
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  19. iceguru1114

    iceguru1114 Proven Member

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    Yes, they seem to have personalities sometimes. Best to steer clear of badmouthing the one that's still up and going.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Autocross Build

    14b   manual
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  20. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Proven Member

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    No way am I badmouthing her. She took me to town last night and drove like a great little used car. I am leaving her the way she is even though I have all of the extra parts to HX40 her and put her on Corn. :thumb:
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    14b   automatic
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.620 @ 108.460 MPH
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.612 @ 107.760 MPH
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  21. 19gsx91

    19gsx91 Proven Member

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    No no badmouthing makes them run better. Marty and I both bragged about how RELIALBE our 1gs were and within 2 weeks of each other they both died on us, him his engine, me my transmission AND clutch pedal assembly.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    292 whp   264 lb/ft
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  22. 19gsx91

    19gsx91 Proven Member

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    @SBstar Has done some impressive stuff with the 14b, as has Mister Bucci, but to my knowledge he doesn't spend a lot of time on this site. I absolutely love the 14b for it's mannerisms, if you coupled it with an electronic boost control setup you might be able to get it to hold higher boost to redline.. but Sbstar would have more ideas on that than I could offer.
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    292 whp   264 lb/ft
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  23. Murdertalon

    Murdertalon Proven Member

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    I think this might be correct, when I thought mine was reliable it over heated and warped the head.. then me and the mad scientist had to pull apart the block and replace the piston rights it fried. Wait.. haha seriously though the head warped and had to replace a head gasket.

    Does boost on the 14b taper off closer to red line or something? the 1g I rode in didn't have any boost issues in higher rpm that I could tell but I don't know the 14b well enough to say otherwise. That one was running about 25lbs though.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    Street Build

    T25   manual
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  24. 19gsx91

    19gsx91 Proven Member

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    Any of the smaller turbos, 14bs/16gs/even the 18gs have issues with the boost falling off at the higher RPM with internal wastegates.. going externally gated can help a bit and using an EBC to control boost will allow you to raise the duty cycle in the higher rpms to maintain boost pressure. I have to do this with my v1 68hta to maintain 28-30psi across the board
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    292 whp   264 lb/ft
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  25. iceguru1114

    iceguru1114 Proven Member

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    The route cause for a wheezing 14b up top is simply a mismatch between airflow demands of the engine and compressor and turbine capabilities. With smaller turbos, when an engine really starts breathing a small compressor runs really far off of the optimal efficiency island, same thing happens to the turbine, then the turbo speed runs into a wall. In fact, increasing turbo speed beyond a certain point is useless because you either fail one of the wheels at a critical tip speed OR one of the wheels stalls out and mass airflow essentially chokes. When this happens the pressure ratio across the compressor stage plummets with increasing mass airflow demanded by the engine and there's not much you can do besides switch to a larger, more capable compressor and turbine combo. Thermodynamics allows you to play all sorts of games in the turbine stage to try to keep the pressure ratio up, but the core problem(s) remain unchanged.

    That being said, I do like the mannersims of the 14b and believe that it's a hard turbo to beat for something like autox. Even in classes like SM, which are essentially unlimited, solo national champ cars still run nothing much bigger than a Garrett GT28 which is only marginally more capable than a 14b in terms of peak airflow (think of it as a 16g with spool characteristics of a 14b due to more modern wheel airfoil geometry in both compressor and turbine stages).
     
    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Autocross Build

    14b   manual
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