My 2.4 Build for my '97 Talon

[VETDRMS]

I picked up the FIC 2150s on Friday.

One of the injector tips didn't look like it was machined very well, is this going to cause cone/spray distribution to be off?

I ran it down as much as possible and filled up with E100 while I still had the 750s in. I was surprised how well it idled, it really smoothed the motor out at idle.

I installed the 2150s last night using the solder in pigtails. I wanted to keep it looking stock so I unwrapped the wiring harness to slide back and retain the stock injector wire loom covers. Removing the stock resistor pack was kind of a pain. I cut the harness of the pack and soldered all the wires together.

I put together a spreadsheet to expand the latency table as provided by FIC. I can post it up if anyone wants to see it, it just uses the FIC table and Power or Poly regressions to expand the voltage or base fuel pressure resolution.

With a global of ~ -65% and the latency settings from FIC it didn't want to idle at first, it was way lean. I ended up adding about 200usec to the 12v-16v latency settings in the direct access table and then fuel trims were within a couple %.

I adjusted the throttle tip-in a bit as it was going lean on quick throttle transitions but it drive and idles really well!

It feels really strong and wideband matches AFRest within 0.3% over a 0-70mph pull. Its at 20psi now and about 10* of timing so there is some more to go. I will be turning it up this afternoon/tomorrow and will post results later.

 

[VETDRMS]

Well, the 2150s work great and E98 is a blast, but it started pushing coolant. After a re-torque and lowering timing it stopped but when brining the timing back up it pushed again so it was time to pop the head!

Here is the last pull before pulling the head (attached):

It was running really well at 25-26psi, ~58lb/min. It scratched it way to ~3.2s 0-60 spinning, full weight, full tank of gas and a passenger. It launches pretty well and doesn't squat too much, I can't wait to get it to the track on a sticky surface.

I never ran excessive timing. Timing near the torque-peak range of 4500-5500rpm timing was below 10* on the "high" timing map and ~5-6* on the low timing map. I never registered more than 1.8* of knock retard but it still lifted.

The #2 cylinder leaked on the block side of the gasket. Upon disassembly we noticed an issue with how the valves were un-shrouded: there is an overhang of the gasket that creates a hot spot, which would explain its low tolerance for timing (6* peak) on pump gas. I am looking for a gasket solution but unfortunately the chamfer in the combustion chamber comes very close to the fire ring. Cometic cannot move the fire ring and I am waiting to hear back from Fel Pro about the fire ring starting diameter. If neither of those will work a copper gasket is a possible solution, but not one I want to try very much. Another option would be to weld the chambers and re-machine it but that will be a last resort.

All of the cylinders looked good, perfect cross hatch and minor scuffing from the skirts but no gouges or signs of material in the cylinders. The ethanol was just starting to clean all the carbon up from the piss gas it was running on low boost.

Hopefully it will be back on the road in a week or less and I can turn it up!

 

[1fastlaser]

I would personally put a 47cc 2.0 head on there and be done with it. You would make the same power.

 

[VETDRMS]

I would personally put a 47cc 2.0 head on there and be done with it. You would make the same power.

I'm not so convinced. Everything was working very well together and I think this is a good head.

The head is going to ETS to be welded up, chambers re-shaped, valve job, and decked then it's time to put it back together.

I'm not so sure I want to use another Cometic gasket though. Any suggestions for a 2.4?

Edit: Attached Log.

 

[DSMReviver]

I'm not so convinced. Everything was working very well together and I think this is a good head.

The head is going to ETS to be welded up, chambers re-shaped, valve job, and decked then it's time to put it back together.

I'm not so sure I want to use another Cometic gasket though. Any suggestions for a 2.4?

Edit: Attached Log.

I dont understand why the head needs to be welded. I don't see anything wrong with the head. whats wrong with it?

 

[VETDRMS]

I dont understand why the head needs to be welded. I don't see anything wrong with the head. whats wrong with it?

The fly-cut made to unshroud the valve extends past the bore diameter. Because of this (1) the gasket hangs into the chamber area and creates a hot spot, (2) the outer boundry layer of air/gas coming from the intake actually hits the deck surface, and (3) the fire-ring is sitting right along the edge of the relief that was cut so the inner embossment that helps seal the fire ring of the gasket is not being compressed in this area creating a potential point-of-failure.

Other than that the head is in really good shape.

 

[DSMReviver]

The fly-cut made to unshroud the valve extends past the bore diameter. Because of this (1) the gasket hangs into the chamber area and creates a hot spot, (2) the outer boundry layer of air/gas coming from the intake actually hits the deck surface, and (3) the fire-ring is sitting right along the edge of the relief that was cut so the inner embossment that helps seal the fire ring of the gasket is not being compressed in this area creating a potential point-of-failure.

Other than that the head is in really good shape.

Oh ok. I see

 

[1fastlaser]

I used a 94 galant 2.4 composite for a while, and then went to a new one with a o ringed head. I went 10.9@134 on pump gas with a non o ringed head/composite gasket, and 25psi on a gt42. It started to seep from a coolant jacket to cylinder 1 so I did a o ringed head, and it stayed together till my motor that had internals that been through 200+ passes in 8 years took a digger.

I like composite gaskets, but with the new motor Im building I am probably just going to do a felpro permatorque metal 87mm gasket. The cometic hps are good, just like any metal they have to be setup right. I know of a certain car with high compression (13ish.1/ methanol, 37psi) making over 1100hp running one with l19s and not having issues. It just has to be RIGHT!

I thought about doing some stuff like your doing, but I am a 93 octane junky, plus they dont have enough e85 stations around me (2 in a 100 mile radius). I wan upwards of 36psi on 93 with my 2.4 and total timing was around 13-14 degrees. My compression was around 8.5:1. I figure 9.7 would be to high for me so 9.0:1 will hopefully be ok. I wanted to try to get the turbo moving without the aid of N20, but I dont think thats going to happen without a billet converter.

Let me know how the head goes, I would like to see some power made by this sucker

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

So my head doesnt have that overhang even with 1mm oversized valves. Why does yours need it and my stock 1g head doesnt.

 

[VETDRMS]

I used a 94 galant 2.4 composite for a while, and then went to a new one with a o ringed head. I went 10.9@134 on pump gas with a non o ringed head/composite gasket, and 25psi on a gt42. It started to seep from a coolant jacket to cylinder 1 so I did a o ringed head, and it stayed together till my motor that had internals that been through 200+ passes in 8 years took a digger.

I like composite gaskets, but with the new motor Im building I am probably just going to do a felpro permatorque metal 87mm gasket. The cometic hps are good, just like any metal they have to be setup right. I know of a certain car with high compression (13ish.1/ methanol, 37psi) making over 1100hp running one with l19s and not having issues. It just has to be RIGHT!

I thought about doing some stuff like your doing, but I am a 93 octane junky, plus they dont have enough e85 stations around me (2 in a 100 mile radius). I wan upwards of 36psi on 93 with my 2.4 and total timing was around 13-14 degrees. My compression was around 8.5:1. I figure 9.7 would be to high for me so 9.0:1 will hopefully be ok. I wanted to try to get the turbo moving without the aid of N20, but I dont think thats going to happen without a billet converter.

Let me know how the head goes, I would like to see some power made by this sucker

It may have just been a defect, I do not know. Both the head/block were correctly prepped for the MLS gasket. If it was getting some preignition off of the gasket overhang it could have technically caused some pretty weird combustion pressure spikes from having multiple flame fronts. The overhang was on the exhaust side, which is where the gasket failed.

I am going to use an 80lb machinists block and 1200 grit to re-prep the block surface and the head is being done the same way. I also have some Hylomar spray I was considering using this time. Mopar also makes a pretty good MLS spray.

I was told it could be a couple weeks before the head is done, but once everything is back together I was hoping to get it to the track to do some shake down runs at 20psi.

VETTE_50_TH The overhang wasn't intentional, I didn't send a gasket with the head and they were cut to the wrong bore diameter. If there is room (e.g. larger bore) it can be beneficial to relieve the profile around the valve (unshrouding) as the air coming from the port doesn't hit a wall and has a smoother transition into the cylinder.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Ok. Im all worried now. My machinist has been doing motor machining for 40 years and recommended i use the hylomar on the gasket. It very tacky. He said to spray it in 3 light coats with 5-10 minutes between coats. Hopefully i dont have the issue you did!

 

[ziggo0]

By chance is your head hanging up on the ARPs? Like getting stuck? If you torqued the arp nut down and the head was hung up on the stud it wouldnt really clamp the head to the block...that is the issue with mine. Head is flat, block is flat, cosmetic headgasket - pushing coolant due to the head not clamping down correctly.

 

[VETDRMS]

By chance is your head hanging up on the ARPs? Like getting stuck? If you torqued the arp nut down and the head was hung up on the stud it wouldnt really clamp the head to the block...that is the issue with mine. Head is flat, block is flat, cosmetic headgasket - pushing coolant due to the head not clamping down correctly.

It went on smoothly so I don't think that was the problem, but thanks.

I ordered some Hylomar spray last week and will probably use that this time around.

The head is still off being repaired so I have been doing what little projects I can and collecting parts for the reassembly.

The O2 housing had a pretty large leak right at the wastegate opening so that would explain the slower-than-expected spool. I had it re-surfaced and it was pretty out of whack. I don't see why MAP won't use a 1/2" flange.

I had originally used cap screws on the O2 housing and wastegate, which looks nice but is hell to tighten/loosen when everything is assembled. This time I will be using ARP 12-point stainless fasteners which should make it much easier to get to with the smaller head.

For anyone who is looking the sizes and part numbers for the ARP fasteners are:

M10x1.25x30 – 773-1003 - SummitRacing 773-1003
M8x1.25x20 – 771-1001 - Summit Racing 771-1001

This should make it more serviceable in the future. Hopefully it doesn't leak this time.

I also got a can of Hylomar which I will be using on the headgasket and exhaust gaskets this time. The can says "especially for copper or multilayer head gaskets," and I have heard really good things about this sealant from various engine builders. The Hylomar part number is HUBRA-1. I got it from Atkins Rotary off eBay: Hylomar Spray eBay

Also, if anyone is looking I found some nickel-based high temperature anti-seize that is specifically for stainless steel and is rated to 2400F. The 8oz can with brush is part number 77124 from Loctite. Loctite High-Temp Nickel Anti-Seize

 

[Nati0nalxCrisis]

Very impressive build man. You sure spent a lot of time and money on this. I'm glad it's working out for the most part so far. Patience deff pays off in the long run.

Jealous is a very describing word for how I feel right now.

 

[VETDRMS]

Nati0nalxCrisis: Thanks man!

The down time is kind of refreshing as I am getting caught up on some other projects that have been on hold while thrashing to finish this.

The head is all welded up but there is some drama with what's left after welding. The valve seats need to be pulled/replaced due to the heat from the welding so the head is getting shipped off to my machinist friend in Montana. That will add at least a couple weeks.

If the welding distorted the head enough I may have to start over with a fresh core. We are trying to save this one as there was a lot of hours put into the port work.

We had talked about trying different valve seat materials in the beginning so we might get our chance. Kibblewhite makes some powdered metal seats that are used in natural gas and heavy-duty diesel applications. The AMPCO material discussed in the first few posts is just too soft for long-term use with SS valves but the powdered metal stuff has good heat transfer properties and is very durable.

I just hope I will be able to get it out to the track before July.

 

[VETDRMS]

Well, it turned out to be a long road of waiting to get it all back together but it is finally running again!

Once I got the deck cleaned up to start lapping I noticed that the gasket actually failed in 4 spots, the worst of them being on cylinder 2 at the front of the block. Both cylinders 2 and 3 failed directly in front and in back of the cylinder:

Cylinder 2 - Front

Cylinder 2 - Back

Cylinder 3 - Front

Cylinder 3 - Back

I then lapped the block with 800 grit until the scarring from the gasket failure was no longer visible and the deck surface was clean and mirror-like.

The cylinder head took some time to repair. It was welded at ETS to fill in the cuts from the unshrouding work where the gasket was hanging in to the chamber. The welding made the valve seats brittle as it had to be welded right next to the seats. This was confirmed on the cutter and the area around the weld was very brittle so it was time for new seats.

I had to ship the head to Montana to have the machine work done, and my buddy was backed up at the shop so it took some time to get to. The chambers were then re-shaped and approximately 0.0045" was removed from the deck surface.

The valve seats were replaced, blended into the ports, and a new valve job was done, resetting the valve installed height to the lower end of the stock specifications (1.921" I believe).

While it was apart we checked the GSC springs and they were spot on spec after the first 1800 miles.

Once that was done the head was sent back to me unassembled and then it was off to English Racing to be lapped and assembled.

Here are a couple pics of the head before assembly/lapping:

I had ordered another 87mm 0.066" thick gasket from Cometic and it was finally time to assemble it. I put a couple light coats of the Hylomar spray on it, but I really didn't like how this stuff goes on. It sprays quite uneven, like a silicone spackle.

I bolted the head down and noticed a slight amount of the Hylomar pushed out along the gasket edge. I didn't like how it looked and wanted to make sure it didn't find its way into any of the coolant/oil ports so the head came back off. I probably put too much on but practically all of the Hylomar had moved away from the flat surfaces and into the coolant/oil feed ports. The flat parts of the gasket were solid black and nearly free of any Hylomar... If I were to use this stuff again I would only put a very light single-coat "spackle" on the gasket.

I also checked the imprint on the head to see if there was any overhang in the chamber and to see where the fire-ring sat. There is some core shift in the head and there was some very small overhang near the intake valves on a couple chambers.

After talking with Lucas @ ER we decided to order a custom 87.5mm 0.066" thick gasket from Cometic so that meant a couple more weeks of down time. Might as well get it right.

The new gasket showed up on Friday so it was time to put it all back together. I put two very light coats of Copper spray on the gasket and installed the head with the A1 H11 studs torqued to 95lbs in a 30-60-95 sequence.

I fought with the timing tensioner for a while trying to get the right amount of protrusion but torqueing that damn thing to 35ft/lbs and keeping it from moving (even with the special tool) is a pain. I am probably way too anal about it but I try to get the protrusion between 1.15" and 1.16" exactly instead of just making sure the pin is loose and calling it good. When the pin is actually loose in the hydraulic tensioner actual protrusion is usually under 1.15". I ended up at a protrusion of 1.142" and decided to stop messing with it.

I had a full tank of E98 in it when it was torn down 2 months ago so I was a little concerned about the fuel keeping, but I sealed off the lines when it came a part so no moisture should have gotten into the fuel.

The motor fired right up once it got fuel and did the usual clacking for the first 10 minutes. There is still some lifter clatter but I will drive it a bit before worrying about it. When checking the lifters on reassembly I noticed one of them was leaking and the valve wasn't sealing, which would explain some of the additional noise I heard before. I replaced this lifter. Even when the lifters are pumped up the the S2-R cams seem to produce more valvetrain noise than stock or more mild cams, which GSC has acknowledged and is probably due to the agressive ramp rates.

I let it get up to operating temperature and then shut it down to let it cool before re-torqueing the head studs. After it had cooled down all the studs took another 20* turn or so at 95ft/lbs. I also changed the oil to get rid of any crap from machining the head (switched from VR1 to Brad Penn), flushed the coolant to remove the WD-40 from lapping the deck, and tonight it will be ready to get back on the road!

Hopefully head gasket issues are over. Work has been crazy but I want to get it on the dyno at ER in the coming weeks and then off to the track. I will post results back here then!

Thanks Pete, ETS, and the guys at English Racing!

 

[matt98eclipse]

Thanks for the update. I love these build threads. amazing job on the build! Cant wait to get mine all finished.

 

[VETDRMS]

matt98eclipse Thanks! I don't think they are ever finished! I have been driving it around at low boost and everything feels good.

 

[dnhieu]

first off great build man. i constantly find myself looking at this thread for motivation and advise.

but on to business... can you post some more pics of that shroud you made around the intercooler and fmic???? im wanting to do the same thing but having a hard time figuring out what you actually did after reading your post and examining the pics.

 

[VETDRMS]

dnheiu Thanks, that kind of feedback is motivation to keep going when stuff goes wrong and it ends up back on the stands torn apart!

I will see if I have more pictures of the shroud, but really what I did was purchase a 10" wide roll of aluminum flashing and aluminum tape and seal the air path to the radiator in four parts once the FMIC was secured. The top cowl was first, followed by two overlapping side pieces that go from the sides of the FMIC up against the core support. The joints overlap and are sealed by the aluminum tape. The top cowl is tricky as it has to go under the upper bumper support and be clearanced for the hood latch mechanism.

The FMIC sits nearly flush with the lower core support on the bottom so a piece of flashing runs along the bottom and is secured by the aluminum tape is all that is required. High density self-adhesive foam strips were used to then seal the radiator to the core support.

The aluminum tape is actually very durable and it is showing no significant signs of wear. I don't remember the exact name but I will look tonight.

 

[dnhieu]

thanks for the response man! im definetly going to home dept racing and going to pick some up. keep up the good work. its good to know that there are more people like myself that are willing to put in the research, time, and effort into modding their cars like myself.

 

[VETDRMS]

I found the source of the 2-3 shift flare. It looks like it is TCU related as it shifts just fine using a shift box that simulates 100% TPS and forces full line pressure.

After waiting 90 days I polished/waxed the newly painted panels after the accident. I used a wildberry bumper that that turned out great, the shop did a good job on matching. Both the bumper and the rear quarter panels were painted.

It is running good, now that the 2-3 shift is sorted out I will schedule some dyno time.

 

[VETDRMS]

I am getting ready to put the new setup on the dyno and it looks like I am starting to approach the limit of a single 255HP on E100. It is rewired with 10awg wire.

It is going lean at upper RPMs and the adjustments that would be needed to get the wideband to match the AFRest in the speed density table don't make sense (i.e. VE>100 @ 7000rpm). At 19-20psi the wideband matches the AFRest pretty well even at higher RPM so I suspect I am reaching the limits of what the 255 can supply on E100.

The attached log is after making adjustments in the 6000-7000rpm range to add more fuel, which did not fix the lean issue.

For this relatively low boost and timing it feels like it is running pretty good. She's a heavy pig, but if the dyno time goes well I expect to get out to the track possibly this weekend. If this is the problem I will pick up an Aeromotive 342 and install it before going to the track.

Thanks.

 

[VETDRMS]

It has been a while since I updated this as it has been very busy here and the Talon has been relentless in playing a game of chicken with a partout. ha!

The 2nd head gasket failed in the exact same way as the first. There is another thread discussing this here:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...cometic-head-gaskets-fail-same-way-ideas.html

Basically, the way the head was lapped created a dip in the middle. There was a .005-.006" dip in the middle of the head. You could see from the imprint of the fire ring in the middle two cylinders that there was much less clamping pressure at the points of failure.

Unfortunately, the repaired head was not repaired correctly and the new seats were showing signs of bad wear. Powdered-metal seats were supposed to be installed but stock-replacement seats were installed. They are softer and the high EGTs combined with higher spring pressures/rpm had the exhaust valves pounding into them only after 600 miles.

Seeing how the head had already been cut 4 times it was time to just toss it and start over. The chambers were pretty small already and I wanted to lower the compression by going back to the stock 47cc chambers.

The guys at English Racing found me a decent core (almost near stock height, with maybe one light resurface) and did some mild porting in the bowls/dividers. I picked up a new set of valves and dropped it off at the machine shop. The machinist replaced the exhaust guides, did a valve job, enlarged the throat of the seats and blended it into the bowls, and surfaced it for an MLS gasket.

I prepped the block with 400/800 grit paper and the large lapping block from ER. This time I checked everything with a machinists edge. There was one orientation where I could fit a 0.0005" feeler but overall it was near-perfect. The head had one spot where i could fit the same feeler so both surfaces are VERY flat this time.

This time I went with the FelPro PermaTorque 1153-1 gasket. The head was torqued in 15lb increments: 20-35-50-65, then let it sit for about 15 minutes and went straight to 95lbs. I then put it through two heat cycles and let it cool completely before re-torqueing. Doing it this way, the nuts barely moved at all on the re-torque. Before, they would all take about an 1/8 turn!

Everything went together a couple weeks ago and I have been taking it easy as I am honestly growing tired of working on it.

It could sense that I about had enough and decided to break again! The new water pump started squealing 30 miles after I had everything back together! Not wanting to throw another NAPA china pump on it again I just put my old GMB Japan pump off my other motor on it and it has been fine.

I drove it up to Pacific Raceways this last weekend for a road-worthiness test and it performed flawlessly. Going up in the morning when it was cool it ran a constant 165-170F. Coming back going down the highway at 70mph, with 90F temps and the AC blasting on full, coolant temps stayed between 183F-190F. Not bad for a stock radiator 2g with a big FMIC! Ducting FTW.

It made the 300 mile round trip with no issues and managed 21mpg on E85.

Of course, the car was not content to let me enjoy it for the whole weekend. I was getting ready to take another short trip on Labor day and looked around the engine compartment and saw what looked like mud all over the front cover/suspension. The CV boot split and tossed all its grease everywhere!

The only place I could find an auto driver side axle was O'Reilly's so I picked one up quick until I can find another good OE one and got it back on the road.

I'm not sure what El Diablo Rojo has in store for me next.

 

[805DSM]

That is the cleanest 2gb talon i've seen!. Awesome build too!