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My 2.4 Build for my '97 Talon

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Ok, taking a short break to do an update. I have been absolutely thrashing non-stop since Wednesday night to get this thing finished. My father is in town for a while so I have had a great shop hand to keep things moving along. We've been met with challenges at every single corner, what a pain in the A55 this thing has been.

I am approaching each issue and trying to do it "right" so while I am in a bit of a hurry I still want to take the time to make it good.

First off I will continue the shroud/FMIC install from my last update. We ended up re-doing the upper part of the shroud as it didn't clear the headlights and looked like crap when "clearanced". All the shrouding was built with aluminum flashing and sealed with aluminum tape. This is normally used on HVAC ducting and is pretty durable. I think it will work pretty good and doesn't look completely terrible. I would love to have access to the proper tools, like a bending brake, shear, etc. But for the tool-limited DIY-er this works quite well. You can get a roll of the flashing from Home Depot for about $10 and the tape is about $5.

First we built inserts that sealed the sides of FMIC to the A/C condensor core. This piece wraps around the condensor core on the passenger side and is clearanced for the A/C lines on the drivers side. Then we built the top cowl that attaches to the FMIC and sits behind the latch and upper bumper support. We notched the lower bolt hole on the upper bumper support to make installation easier.

We then sealed the condensor core to the radiator using high-density self-sticking foam. The bottom of the FMIC was sealed to the lower core support using the aluminum tape. I thought about building an air damn from heavier gauge aluminum but decided against it.

Pics:

FMIC_Install1.jpg


FMIC_Install2.jpg


FMIC_Install3.jpg


FMIC_Install5.jpg


FMIC_Install11.jpg


BumperCover_Install10.jpg


Once that was done it was time to start the laborous process of installing the bumper cover! The idea was to measure 2x and cut once, but it turned out to be measure 20x and cut 20x. I have seen a lot of crappy hack jobs on this and the goal was to get a nice even fit across the front of the FMIC with no gap. We literally spent almost an entire day on this process while taking breaks to do other little things when it got too annoying.

The crash beam was cut to fit the core of the FMIC. This is also sealed to the FMIC on the top/sides by the high-density foam:

FMIC_Install13.jpg


FMIC_Install14.jpg


FMIC_Install16.jpg


The bumper was trimmed with a metal cut-off wheel. I still need to clean off marker lines used for guides and clean it up a bit but here is the nearly-finished fitment:

BumperCover_Install2.jpg


BumperCover_Install1.jpg


BumperCover_Install4.jpg


Once that was done it was time to install the radiator. There was no way the stock driver's side fan was going to fit so I had to try to source one quick. I found a Maradyne 12" slim fan that fit perfectly and flows quite well: 1560cfm. This was wired into the stock harness and fastened to the radiator using some pull through ties. I never like to use these but I didn't have the material or time to fabricate some mounting tabs. This also allowed me to get the fan closer to the core. I used all 8 rubber pads on the fan side and big thick rubber pads on the other side so it should be fine. All electrical connections are always soldered and shrink-wrapped. I also installed some DEI reflective heat material on the fan motor as it sits right in front of the turbine housing. It will still be hot but this should help quite a bit. We'll see how long it lasts.

Fan_Install3.jpg


Fan_Install4.jpg


Fan_Install6.jpg


Fan_Install7.jpg


Fan_Install8.jpg


Here are some pics of my AIT sensor install and AFPR install.

AIT_Install1.jpg


AIT_Install3.jpg


AFPR_Install1.jpg


Other than that there is a million little things that kept us busy that I will follow up on in a later post. Right now I am trying to find a coolant overflow tank and a place to put the JMF oil catch can. I am picking up a mini battery tonight and will make a mount to move it down. That should give me space for the catch can at least.

Thanks for looking, start-up should be...tonight!
 
Good news, it lives!

Now, it certainly was not without its drama but I am impressed with how well it did right off the bat.

Before the first start I turned the key on to finish setting up ECMLink and I hear a loud pop and saw a bunch of fluid shooting all over the car out of the engine bay.... the damn meth injection pump came on for some damn reason and blew a hole in the rubber vacuum cap I was covering the pipe with. I unhooked the sensor and turned the activation up all the way to keep it from happening again on first start.

So it's time for first start and we crank it over and the motor doesn't even make it over 1 full turn before it fires right up! Hold it at about 2000rpm and look for leaks and vary the revs from 1000-2500 or so while letting it get to operating temperature. Oil pressure went straight to 90psi cold and stayed around 65psi when warm at 2500rpm. It dropped to 15-20psi at idle when warm so that looks good. This is with straight 30w. The lifters were clattering their little hearts out for quite a while, and I still think there is some clatter so I might have to look into that. I then checked under the car for leaks and it all looked good other than the water/meth puddles.

I went to put the side covers on and noticed there was some oil, looked like it was coming down the front of the block.... Took a while to find it but the plug in the end of the head wasn't tight. It never leaked while priming the system but a little heat loosened it up, once that was tightened up there were no leaks and it was time to go for a drive!

The car actually drove really well and was responsive with only the basic VE map and standard speed density settings! It just wouldn't idle without dieing. I wanted to get 20 miles of varying load on it so off we went. The coolant temp went up a lot faster and higher than I had expected and it wanted to settle on 200-206F right off the bat. New motors run warm but that was too hot.

I then checked the new fan and it wasn't working. It turned out that the fuse had blown so I replaced it. However, the temps were still too high. The top hose was hot but the lower wasn't so it had to be the new thermostat not opening.

I drained the fluid and installed my old thermostat that used to keep the car at a constant 180F. Sure enough, with that in it took some time to get to 180F and stayed around there, going up to 186F with fans set to come on at 190F.

The fun wasn't qutie over. I was doing some 1st gear and 2nd gear pulls 2000-5000rpm and coasting to vary the load. Right now I am on wastegate pressure of 8psi but was only running 5-7 at part throttle. I went from 2000-5500 in first gear and got a nice big smoke show. I was about 2 blocks from home so I just darted back to the garage thinking it was a pretty minor leak. The smoke was constant but not real bad. I should have just pulled over right away. It has been non-stop thrashing on this for a week and I am exhuasted.

The oil pressure never dropped and was above 40psi on the way back to the garage, pulled in with it smoking and saw a trail of oil going down the driveway. S**t! The pressure guage take-off in between the oil filter housing and the oil feed line for the turbo had come loose and sprayed oil all over the place. So much for the clean motor! The bad part is I lost 1.75qts of oil. It should be fine as the pressure never dropped but its still scary.

After tightening that up and putting some more oil in it I put another 10 miles on it. It still smoked like a mother while it was burning all the oil off the downpipe's heat-wrap, but there were no leaks.

The motor sounds awesome, I can't wait to get turn it up. I got 20 miles on it and will be changing the oil tonight and will run it for the next 200 miles until the next change, when I will switch from the Brad Penn 30w break-in oil to Valvoline 20w-50 or similar. At 1000 miles I plan to switch to Brad Penn 20w50.

I first need to get it to idle and then get the tune dialed in. The trims aren't very far off but it is leaner than the AFRest at moderate load factors so I have some work to do before turning up the boost. I am very happy with how well the speed density worked out of the box though! The turbo sounds sick, even at light throttle it sounds like a jet taxing down the runway. The exhaust sound is 10x better than the old motor, its got a "crackle" and a "snap" to it now. :)

The transmission also feels great, shifts are firm and crisp and no sign of binding/slip. I installed an Alto 5-disc front clutch and replaced the end clutch as wells as the sun shell and kickdown band. I also modified the valve body a bit more. :) I am running John Deere Hy-Guard this time.
 

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Subscribed. I'd be interested to hear how you solve the poor idling issue. I can't get my 2.0 rebuild to idle either. Good luck, sounds like a beast!
 
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Nice! I had the same thing with an oil pressure sender backing out...I wasn't so lucky.
 
hurricanechris24: Sorry, no video. I have been in a time crunch and dealing with that would just be one more thing. Also, bad things tend to happen when a camera is around! :) I will try to get a couple videos once everything is working well and I have more time.

importracr317 I will be working on the idle some more tonight. My throttle cable was too tight when it warmed up so the TPS would not go to 0% so the idle switch wasn't on, which obviously will cause issues. I think I just need to adjust the BISS to give the hungry stroker some more air to idle. I will be working on it tonight and will post the results.

ziggo0 Sorry to hear that! :( I did the first oil drain and there was nothing but a bunch of moly lube from the assembly lube in the oil. I could not see any metal at all so I think I got away with it. The transmission is making a slight hydraulic noise when cold but I think that is just from the thicker Hy-Guard fluid. I will probably use the low-viscosity stuff for winter.
 
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I have 110 miles on it and other than a few quirks everything appears to be running pretty well. I am getting some unexpected knock even at very low boost and <50% throttle, which doesn't seem right so something might be loose or it is piston slap. There is some piston slap on start-up, but that was expected at ~.005" PTW.

I also have a strange electrical issue where all my instrument cluster lights come on and I lose charge (voltage drops to 12.2v) at 6000rpm, which just happens to coincide with a wierd harmonic vibration from the motor that resonates in the dash. No balance shafts and hard poly mounts vibrate quite a bit, by the way.

It idles just fine now. The BISS screw was screwed all the way in from tb.com, I just had to adjust it. The idle rpm is set at 1000 now but I will work on idle more once it has more miles on it.

The speed density table is pretty dialed in. Boostest matches the map sensor and afratioest matches the wideband.

At only 5-7psi the car is surprisingly strong even at this low boost. These cams definitely have a 4500-8000+rpm powerband. There is about 12" of vacuum at idle.

I will post some pictures of some of the other build items when I get a chance, it has just been super busy here.
 
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I haven't had a lot of time to drive it and sort out all of the bugs but it is running pretty good! I just switched from the Brad Penn SAE 30W to Valvoline 20w50 VR1 at 150 miles and there is just under 200 miles on it now. It doesn't smoke or burn oil and there are no leaks.

It is now time to start cleaning up a few things that were skipped in the rush to get it running while I had a shop buddy around.

The new OEM spark plug wire looms worked well with the OEM plug wires and the upright Evo III coil pack. I also picked up a new brake reservoir cap and oil fill cap.

SparkPlugWireLooms.jpg


I also hooked up the stock oil pressure sender and dummy light off the oil filter housing. I now have a bunch of different BSPT fittings sitting around to dry different setups but I think this will work for now. The first fitting off the oil filter housing is a steel 1/8 BSPT male to female and the second fitting is a nickle plated brass 1/8 BSPT cross so both the sensors will screw into it. The fitting going to the oil feed line is a -4 AN male to 1/8 BSPT male adapter that is also steel. I could not get a steel 1/8 BSPT cross.

OilPressureSenderCross.jpg


There are still a few ugly wires running around that need to be cleaned up and I still need to move the mini battery down to make room for the JMF catch can. For now a hose is just ran down to the ground right from the valvecover. I will probably have Andrew at Frontline Fab build me an overflow tank that I can tuck up in the stock location.

EngineBayAlmostDone1.jpg


EngineBayAlmostDone2.jpg


EngineBayAlmostDone3.jpg


I am still have a few issues. There is a more knock than I would expect at only 7psi and low timing (12 degrees). I expected the 9.8:1 compression ratio to make it borderline pump gas friendly. I think it may be mechanical noise as there is some vibration/resonance at higher rpms. I posted another thread about the dash lights coming on and no charge at 6000+rpm. I think the alternator might just be bad. I did run a 4AWG ground wire from the alternator to the frame. Voltage is a pretty steady 14v even with everything running.

Even at 7psi this thing rips, I can't wait to turn it up. :D
 
I fixed the voltage issue. The new Saturn alternator was bad. The replacement works great and has a pretty steady 14v no matter the rpm or load. With everything on at idle with the car nice and hot it is a steady 13.8-14.0v. :D

I started doing some WOT tuning and it is running pretty good but certainly isn't very pump gas friendly! I am getting .4-.7 degrees of knock at 8psi with 10.9:1 AFRs and 10-12 degrees of timing.

This thing just rips after 5k rpm though, its like it has the VTACK... It is pretty obvious that this cam's powerband is going to be in the 4000-8000rpm range. At 8psi and 6000rpm it is flowing 30lbs/min. My Afratioest matches my wideband and boostest matches the 4bar so airflow should be reasonably accurate.

Once it is broke in I will reinstall my water/meth injection and get a decent pump gas tune then start the E85 conversion.
 
This may or may not be the case for you, but I was getting 1 ~ 4, sometimes almost 10 counts of knock on my pump gas tune. Motor was 8.5.1, e316g, 10psi, plenty of fuel yadda yadda - turns out 10.9 was just to rich...I pulled more fuel (safc so even more timing) on a hunch to about 11.5 ~ 11.8 and all my knock cleared up and the motor felt HAPPY. I tested this on a 80F day and when it was almost 100F out, still no knock. Rich knock does exist - for e85 too.
 
Thanks Ziggo. I am going to try a different timing map and lean it out a little bit tonight.
 
I've been putting some miles on it and finally did some WOT tuning.

At this low boost level the speed density table looks pretty dialed in and it is running very low timing for now.

As it starts to boost creep it feels really strong and wants to definitely pull past 7000rpm. The airflow should be reasonably calibrated but 42lbs/min at 13psi is nuts. I am impressed that the MAP O2 housing/38mm Tial can hold the boost this low.

Any suggestions on the tune before turning it up a bit?

:thumb:
 

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AWESOME build man. Very very nice. It's rare to see a build this clean and professional outside of a major shop anymore. Definitely going to pay attention to this one, as I myself have been wanting to go with a S256ET, but on a 2.3L. Yours should give me a fairly close peek at what I'm looking at.
 
Xeirios Thanks man, that means a lot. It has been a ton of work and some really great people have contributed so much. I've spent countless hours scrounging through this and other forums learning from some generous people who have shared their experiences/knowledge. I'll make a master list of props/kudos once I get some real results but right now I am ecstatic with how it came out. The short list includes Pete Loomis at LPM, all the guys at English Racing, Mark at Metro transmissions, and my dad for spending half of his vacation swinging wrenches with me while he was visiting.

Here is a screen shot of the log posted above for those without DSMLink installed:

LogScreenShot.jpg
 
I finished up a few things on Saturday. I finally moved the battery down to make room for the JMF catch can and stop dumping my crankcase evac to the ground. It is supported by a piece of 1/8"x2" angle iron. A piece of masking tape worked good to transfer the bolt holes that the charcoal canister mounts to over to the angle iron so it would sit level.

The top of the battery is now at the same height as the frame rail, which gave me a lot more room. For now the battery is just held in with a battery box strap but it feels really solid. I will work on a better setup later.

BatteryBracket1.jpg


BatteryBracket2.jpg


This gave me a lot more room to mount the catch can. I used a piece of 1"x1/8" aluminum bar stock to make a bracket so the catch can bolts to the cruise control throttle cable "interchange" piece off the firewall.

I also re-wired the new fan to come on with the stock fan's low speed. The 2 fuse distribution block was used for both the fan and the fuel pump and the Saturn alternator "S" sense wire is hooked up to this block. The distribution block is fed with a 4 AWG wire and the pump and fan run off 10 AWG. Idle voltage with fans on is 14.1v!

JMFCatchCan1.jpg


JMFCatchCan3.jpg


JMFCatchCan2.jpg


As you can see above the stock coolant expansion tank is mounted under the intercooler pipe. It is attached the AC line and rests on the top of the transmission for now. I am going to replace it for a custom tank, but this is working for now.

The motor has 400 miles on it now and it is running good. The last oil change was 300 miles and it hasn't used/lost any oil.

I am going to try to put another 100 miles on it today and change the oil again and then switch to Brad Penn at 1500 miles.

Well this is not the kind of update I was looking forward to but someone rear ended me on my way to work this morning. :mad:

BumperCover.jpg


I was stopped at a red light getting off the highway and I stopped, then pulled forward to see if any traffic was coming to go right on red and about the same time I stopped after pulling forward the lady behind me rammed into me... She said she thought I was going so she went. There was a cement truck turning right in the oncoming lane of traffic so I couldn't see anything behind it. So apparently if the car in front of you is going (or you think it's going) you can just follow it through....ugh

I am looking for a good Talon 2gb bumper, any help finding one is appreciated. Can you even get these from the dealer anymore?

Thanks
 
I got an estimate for repairs yesterday. The estimator could not find an OE bumper or a new aftermarket bumper that he would use and guarantee fitment with. He did say if I could find a used one that would probably be my best bet. He found the Eagle emblem but could not find a TSi or AWD emblem but said he might be able to transfer the ones on the old bumper.

He also said they could repair the bumper. I am still waiting for some pictures from people who have responded to my WTB ad. Thanks. :)

Aaron at ER gave me a different timing map to try from a motor he tuned that is very similar to mine. I was a little aggressive on my initial timing map for 9.8:1 and pump gas.

The timing is pretty low but it feels good. I ran it out a little more than the previous log and it's moving ~45lb/min at 14.5psi. I think I am going to end up hitting choke flow on this turbo in the mid 20psi range, but it should make pretty good power.

Any opinions/thoughts are welcome/helpful.

Travis
 

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Wow man, great build, love the attention to detail. Shroud looks awesome & will definitely help keep temps down. Great to see the 45 deg coupler worked out with the SMIM! Happy to be part of the build :)

Sorry to hear about the accident, hopefully insurance takes care of you!
 
Thanks Tiago! I know you said the bead didn't roll perfect on that 90* pipe but it looks like it will seal just fine. Thanks again.

Just a quick update. The transmission went into limp mode yesterday. It is putting out codes 41, 52, 83, and 86: Shift Solenoid A open circuit, 2nd gear incorrect gear ratio, and the other two are the related limp-mode fail safe codes.

I replaced the pulse generators but that didn't change it. I also replaced the TCU but it is still in limp mode. It engages 1st gear but the second it starts to roll it goes into limp mode. The current TCU will not output any trouble codes.

When the lady hit me I had just started rolling in 1st gear. Could something have been broken in the accident? It was a pretty violent lurch forward. Not sure how I would prove that or even deal with the insurer if it was the cause.

Good times!
 
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I changed the solenoid pack and it's shifting great. Looks like the shift solenoid A was bad. First gear is: solenoid A: on solenoid B: off and with an open circuit on shift solenoid A it would be unable to engage first.

The magnets all looked great with only a tiny bit of fuzz on them and the pan/valvebody was very clean, so that is good.

When I had the valvebody out I checked the kickdown band and it seemed to be a little loose but I had set it up to a specific engagement pin travel of .085" per the TransLab instructions so I left it alone. I know the clutches wear in a bit and the clearance usually increases by about .030" or more so I didn't want to re-adjust the band and get it to tight if the extra play I saw was just the wear-in. What I could see of the kickdown drum (sunshell) looked good, no heat discoloration or scarring.

I had a couple weird full line pressure 1-2 shifts before it went into mode where the rpm would drop, stay flat, and then drop more. It was intermittent so this was most likely caused by the failing solenoid A.

Without getting too vendor-review-like, I have to give a huge thanks to the guys at English Racing. I can't say enough good things about them and there is no way I would have had this back on the road so quickly without their help (on a Saturday and on the day of their annual dyno day, no less). OEM solenoid packs are getting really hard to find. They had just gotten a 2g FWD working core in and let me pull the solenoids from it. I now need to get another set on the way to replace them. Also, near the end of the day I forgot I was out of hy-guard fluid and Jeff gave me a 5-gallon pale before heading to the track for the night.

Just another day in the life of a DSM. Hopefully it can stay away from the JackStands Resort for more than a few weeks. :D
 
Wow man, that SUCKS about the accident. Hopefully you can track something down. Such a damn shame to happen to such a beautiful car.
 
Update on the build:

I installed the IR boost control solenoid yesterday and got it set up. I made a small bracket out of aluminum stock to mount it to the radiator. It is working good, and is at about 16psi at 45% duty cycle. It is hooked up using both the top/bottom ports. My only concern is how tolerant these solenoids are to heat. I like where it is mounted to keep the hose lengths down, but it will obviously get heated up by the radiator/hose. It is not physically touching anything other than the fan mount tab where I secured the bracket.

The brass/rubber hoses and clamp setup may be temporary. I will probably switch to the polyehtylene tubing push-to-connect fittings for a cleaner look.

BoostControl1.jpg


BoostControl2.jpg


I also installed the chipped TCU and de-wired my old shift box. The shifts feel good but I think I have a 1-2 engagement issue that could be a sticky valve or kick-down band that needs to be adjusted.

Other than that I am going to finish wiring up the tranny cooler fan to run off the foglamp switch. Right now it comes on with the lights on only. I am going to re-wire it so I can turn it on independent of the lights.

I develped a small leak from the turbo side of the TiAL wastegate. I currently am not using gaskets but it looks like I need to. I will be ordering a few on Monday.

There is just under 1000 miles on it now and hopefully soon-ish I can convert to E85 and turn it up!

Accident Update:

The insurance company estimated repairs at $1250 so now I just need to take it somewhere to get the new bumper refinished and installed. I still dont' know what to do about the emblems as I would like to keep them. Hopefully they can transfer the ones that are no longer available.
 
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General Update:

The car is running good. I have 1300 miles on it now, it is still at moderately low boost and a very conservative tune. I relocated the boost control solenoid to the driver's side fender. I will post some pics of this tonight.

Here is the relocated BCS:

BCSRelocated.jpg


I just ordered FIC 2150s and an Aeromotive 342 pump for the E85 conversion. Hopefully soon I will be able to post some high-boost results and will try to get it to the track as soon as everything is sorted out.

Accident Update

I dropped the car off this morning to have the replacement bumper painted. The rear quarter panels are going to be faded to make sure it matches. They said they will paint about half of each quarter panel with color and fade it forward and then re-clear the entire panel. I am having them pull the door dings before painting so the panels will be as good as new. I am also replacing one of the side trim pieces that was cracked. I should be able to pick it up on Thursday/Friday.

I am now hunting for the TSI and AWD emblems. I know they are discontinued but does anyone know where they might be available? Is there a way to transfer the ones from the old bumper without ruining them?

Thanks!

This is how it looked when I dropped it off this morning:

BumperOff.jpg
 
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I'm slowly getting to the point to see what this new combo will do. I picked up some VP110 today to see if the knock I was seeing was mechanical noise or if this thing just really doesn't like pump gas.

Turns out it doesn't like pump gas. I started turning it up a bit. My transmission is still acting weird on the 1-2 shift so I need to sort that out. With some more timing (+2) and 16psi it was moving 46lb/min and felt pretty good. 0-60 was ~4.3 on wet roads. Peak timing is only 7* right now.

I turned the boost up a little and leaned it out from 11.1 to 11.4 and wow it just came alive. Spins hard on launch and just rips. At 20psi and 7000rpm it's moving 52lb/min!

The 750cc injectors are at 95% IDC at 11.4:1. I have the VP110 mixed 2 parts pump to 1 part 110. I am going to up the ratio and make some full runs. I am out of injector so I will just see what I can do with timing and maybe lean it out a bit.

The FIC 2150s will be here this week and then it's E85 time.

I think I am going to run out of turbo fast. At a PR of 2.4 and 52lb/min I am very close to the choke flow line for this turbo. I have attached a 16psi and 20psi log. I didn't get a chance to run it out at the higher boost it looks like I need to work on my VE table a bit at the higher boost level.

My wastegate started leaking so I picked up some of the TiAL embossed gaskets and it fixed the leak. However, the O2 housing is leaking a bit on the turbine side at the wastegate port. I'm sure this will impact spool a bit. This MAP SS O2 housing looked pretty nice but it seems to be a little warped. I will probably pull it off and have it milled flat. I am using a SS O2 housing gasket.

LeakingGate.jpg


I also installed a Mishimoto thermostat, which brought coolant temps down considerably. I have used just about every other 170 or 180 thermostat with varying degrees of success but I wanted a lower, more stable temperature. The 2g cooling system is a bit odd with the thermostat on the inlet side. Because of this, the cool inlet water will cause it to close just as it is opening and it wont' be fully open until the inlet temp is at the thermostat temperature. This is why the 2gs always run at a higher temperature than the thermostat rating (~20* higher). The 1g and most other systems I've used put the thermostat on the hot outlet side.

I would rather control the temperature with the fans. I tested it with no thermostat and I could run whatever water temp I wanted by changing the fan control. I could pull it down to 150 if I wanted to. The downside is if you are coasting down hill or it is very cold the coolant temp will get way to low. The cooling system is sufficient, but the design is just wrong for running lower temps without a much lower thermostat opening point. The Mishimoto 143 thermostat fits the bill. I checked it in a pot of water with a candy thermometer and it opens right at 143 and is nearly fully open by 150.

I have it set so the fans come on at 183 and turn off at 173. It only takes the fans 10-15s to pull the temp down while idling. And driving/cruise temps stay in this range. $50 for a thermostat is a little ridiculous but there really aren't any other options. I picked mine up for $39 from MAP. YMMV

I hope to have some track results in the next couple weeks if it stops raining for once...
 

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