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Posted by 1G90AWDTsi, Dec 23, 2007
Cylinder Head & Short Block - 4G63 cams, valvetrain, pistons, rods, stroker kits, 6-bolt swaps, hybrids, etc. Read this Forum's Strict Guidelines.
Guys, I have HKS Cams 264/272
Are these Stage I replacements or Stage II cams??
The 264 is a milder cam than the 272. Normally people get two of the same kind, but the 264/272 combo is done to smooth out idle issues, in most cases.
The term "stage" doesn't really apply, but I suppose if you just want to avoid a lengthy explanation of cam profiles to the kids who crowd around your car, you could just say they're "Stage 2" and leave it at that. Is that more or less what you're asking?
Yea, they'er really a stage 1.5 upgrade. But, you're allowed to round up on the tenths .
Stages is something they use in the Neon (sorry SRT4) & Honda community. Us DSM owners like to tell people what we are really running & not some stage #, that doesn't really mean anything . But if you have to tell your non DSM friends what you are running, the above answers will do
Whats that? Stage ninerrr suck your face off turbo? Thats the sickest thing that was ever sick! HAHA
Ahhhh it cracks me up when I say what I have, and an idiot ricer asks me, " So what stage is that?"
I just tell people it's all stock, it idles like that because of the vacuum leak.
The old school cam list of "mods" is as follows from least to most aggressive:
Based on duration and lift:
1G turbo Auto cams
2G turbo cams
1G non-turbo cams (256i/248e), slightly higher lift and duration on the intake cam only.
1G turbo Manual cams (248i/248e), slightly higher lift on the exhaust cam only.
Evo 4-8 cams (reversed installation)
HKS 264/264 cams (or equivilant; FP1)
HKS 264/272 cams (or equivilant; FP2, DKS1)
HKS 272/272 cams (or equivilant; FP3, DKS2, BC2)
HKS 280 cams (or equivilant; FP3x or FP4, DKS3, BC3, and the infamous JUN 272's)
HKS 288 cams (or equivilant; BC4)
The 1G turbo auto cams are extremely mild, but produced decent power levels in the 1000-3500rpm range, and were a good match for the stock torque convertor and a 13G turbo. Oh, and the old lady driving.
The 2G turbo cams just sucked, but it was more the T-25 (T-TOO-SMALL) turbo's fault than the cams. Made for good low end/midrange power/torque for sally little girls driving the cars when they were stock. These cams had nothing past 4200-4600rpms.
The 1G non-turbo cams actually had a more aggressive duration and lift on the intake cam than the turbo models, but the exhaust cam is slightly milder than the turbo version.
The 1G turbo manual cams are a nice upgrade for 2G owners that are using a T-25, a 14B or a 16G turbo without requiring an aftermarket cam. These cams die out in the 5200-5400rpm range.
The Evo 4-8 cams are slightly more aggressive than the 1G turbo manual cams, and would be considered as an upgrade over them. The intake cam and the exhaust cams have more aggressive lift, but the same duration as the 1G turbo manual cams. You would install the exhaust cam from the evo motor into the dsm as the intake cam; and the evo's intake cam would become the exhaust cam on the dsm. They have a better overall powerband than the 1G turbo manual cams, and likely die off around the 5400-5600rpm range.
The 264/264 cams have a higher lift and duration than ALL of the stock camshafts, but are still extremely streetable in the dsm, giving stock idle qualities, while increasing the power throughout the whole powerband up to the 6000-6200rpms range, while losing no low end power. Made for cars running a 14B, or a 16G.
The 264/272 cams have a higher lift/duration cam on the exhaust side than the 264/264 combo, and produce a solid increase in power throughout the powerband, emphasizing on the midrange/topend while retaining the stock-like idle, and very little low-end power loss over stock. Powerband now lasts into the 6800rpm range on a 2.0L. Made for cars running a 14B up to a 60-trim or 56-trim turbo (i.e. PTE SCM60 or SCM61). These are great with 50-trims and 20G's.
The 272/272 cams now have both high lift/high duration cams in action versus the 264/272 combo, and it shows. The car has a lopier idle (which can easily be retuned), and is smooth at 1000rpms. Power is strong from 4000+rpms, and has been proven to make solid power to 10K rpms. The low end from 1000-4000rpms is moderately depressing, but the light switch turns to fun at the 4000rpm mark and hold on for the fun to last until your prescribed redline. These cams are absolutely a riot with track-happy 50-trims, or street worthy 60-trims and up (stock block or race motor setups). An excellent combination for street power with all the popular Garrett turbos out there (GT35R, GT4088R, GT4094R, GT4294R) on a 2.0L or 2.3L race motor. Proven into the 8's.
The newer cams out there are the 280 and 288 cams. These cams ARE designed for race applications--these are top end only cams. If you want to run them on the street with your 16G, you are completely wasting your time. These cams have a wicked idle, and really like to run smooth from 1100-1200rpms and up. They don't make decent power until 5K rpms (280's) and up (288's) in a 2.0L motor, but will rev to the moon (10.5-12K rpms), creating a solid top end powerband for a high-revving, ball-bearing GT4094R or larger turbo'd car. In a 2.3L with a LARGE turbo (GT4088R and larger), the 280 cams will likely kick your ass from 4800rpms, while the 288's will be a few hundred rpms later (close to 5200-5500rpms) on a GT4088R or GT4094R, and closer to 6K rpms on the GT4294R/4202R setups. These new cams are proving themselves into the 8's and 7's; but then again, all those cars are RACE CARS. If you intend on running a full race motor with a LARGE turbo, then go for it. If you are running some stock block car with a 50-trim...you are completely wasting your time because the turbo will be way out of its flow map at the rpms that these cams make power to. I would also only run these 280 or 288 cams on cars using a T4-flanged turbo to handle the flow that they put out.
That said, I am still running 272/272's on my 2.3L, GT4088R-powered street car, and am going 9's; along with other members on here like Jake Hanhardt (topstreet) with his 2.3L, GT4294R'd 10,500rpm revving monster.
I hope that this in-depth answer will give you some insight. We don't go by numbered stages. If you are running a stage 2 cam, go buy a different car. I like to know the exact specifications. The 264/272 cams in your application are IDEAL for getting the most out of your 16G on a mildly built motor, while having room to upgrade to a larger turbo (like a 50-trim or a 60-trim). These will produce the best low end/midrange/top end compromise on your 16G. If you do any upgrading, purchase a HKS 272 Intake cam, and a pair of QUALITY adjustable cam gears (HKS, fidanza, AEM, VENOM, Greddy, Skunk2).
fp3 fp2 fp2x fp4 fp3x all have the same duration at .50" lift. 1 degree less than HKS 272s .
Great write up! (yours too Dsm-onster, back in the day )
thanks for the info guys, I've heard many times that I should upgrade to titanium springs/valves/retainers for the cams I got. I only have the stock s/v/r in my cyl-head. The head is shaved port&polish...is that ok? I'm not boosting past stock boost at the moment.
For safety's sake, it would be a good idea to have at least upgraded springs. Boost level doesn't matter(in this case) as far as needing stiffer springs, it depends on rpm. You could probably get away with the stock rev limit and those cams, but valve float can lead to expensive damage.
the stock springs could cause valve float?
in your case, I wouldn't worry about it a bit.
Upgraded valve springs (steel) and titanium retainers are really reccomended for more advanced cams; i.e. 272's and higher.
Since you are doing stock rpms and low boost, it isn't a requirement.
Absolutely agree. The 4g63 valvetrain is not a weakness. Friends I know have been running 272s to 7500+ rpms in daily drivers w/ all stock head components.
Stiffer springs are neccesary where 1. the valve opens/closes at a more accelerated rate (high ramprate) and/or 2. where a peak lift at which your current springs can bind. The HKS 272 cam profile is not aggresive enough with either of those characteristics.
Thanks for the info guys, I've put 1500 miles on my engine since it was built and was getting worried that I could've cause some damage.