HKS 264's VS GSC S2's For DSM

Posted by LucasEnglish, Jan 26, 2011
Dyno Talk - For all the DSM dyno queens. Discuss dyno results here. For tuning discussions, use the Tuning Forum.

  1. LucasEnglish

    LucasEnglish Proven Member

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    This is a 1991 Talon AWD 5spd.

    Mods that matter are
    -Unknown motor with .020 Wisco pistons stock rods (bad idea I think)
    -GSC S2's for DSM
    -Stock Intake mani
    -FP 3065
    -V3 SD 1450s nice 4in intake
    -Single 255hp
    -press bent 3in exhaust.
    -92 oct tuned with no knock on these pulls but each at the limit on the tune.

    While the 400rpm spool loss is not cool the same power from 5-6400 and a 49hp gain at 7.5k+ is.


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    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2014
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  2. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    Nice gains up top.
    Does the car have adjustable cam gears?
    If so, did the cams get degreed in?
     
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  3. LucasEnglish

    LucasEnglish Proven Member

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    No it does not have adj cam gears. Good cams should not need them.
     
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  4. standard235

    standard235 Proven Member

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    Truth but I was under the impression it helped to resolve minor differences in cam timing due to decking of the head and block?
     
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  5. LucasEnglish

    LucasEnglish Proven Member

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    Well from what I have seen in playing with cam gears there is not much. On the 264s if I were to retard the intake quite a bit I probably could have picked up more top end and lose a ton of spool. Even 2.4s with 6mm taller deck deck only lose about 20hp with out setting the cams right. So the most I could see with the avg surface is maybe 5-10hp and that would be pushing it. I have found ret on the intake cam can help quite a bit with knock. These cams are made right for the power of 30r+ sized turbos so it really does not need adj. Unlike many of the old school DSM Cams out there.
     
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  6. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    Are these the brand new latest S2 grinds from Greg?
     
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  7. LucasEnglish

    LucasEnglish Proven Member

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    Yes they are the latest. We are the 1st to test them.

    We can sell them for $450 shipped in the US.
     
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  8. VETTE_50_TH

    VETTE_50_TH Banned Member

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    Specs? Did they redesign the S3 as well? If so, can you provide the specs on those?

    Im in the market for cams for my 2.4 hta30r and im not sure what to go with. Debating between s2-s3 and kelford 272-280. Any recommendations? PM me if you want. Thanks
     
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  9. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    The S2's have 11.2/11mm intake/exhaust of peak valve lift.
    They also have 230* of duration @ .040" valve lift.

    GSC Power-Division Evo 1-3 and DSM S2 Camshafts :: Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 1-3/ DSM (4G63) :: Mitsubishi :: GSC Power-Division: Racing Inspired Products

    FP4R's have 11.18/10.8mm intake/exhaust of peak valve lift.
    They also have 224* of duration @ .050" valve lift.

    http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/00000001/data/101FP4R Spec Rev A.pdf

    Hrrrmmm, I wonder how the two would compare in duration if they were measured at the same amount of lift?

    I have a set of S2's due to arrive at my doorstep tomorrow.

    I have done an extensive amount of research on camshafts and their function in turbocharged engines.
    I found that turbo engines do not like cams with a ton of overlap.
    But they like a lot of lift.
    But you can not have one without the other.
    One way to combat the effects of a lot of overlap is to run a full twin scroll turbo/exhaust manifold with truly divided wastegate runners.

    We will soon see what a set of GSC S2's and a full twin scroll set-up will do.
     
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  10. VETTE_50_TH

    VETTE_50_TH Banned Member

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    Im trying to find a cam for a 2.4 All the stuff i find is from 2005 and back. And stuff has changed drastically since then.
     
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  11. NDgsx

    NDgsx DSM Wiseman

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    On a lot of our larger 2.4 cars (evo and dsm) we are using profiles that even 6 months ago were considered too large for street cars let alone 5-10 years ago. The old FP3X and other stroker cam sets that were on the market for 2.3/2.4 have definitely been surpassed.

    In my Evo with a 2.4 I am running the S3 profile with slightly chopped down advertised duration. Its making 794whp at 38psi on E85 and 648 at 29 on 92 octane (no meth). I work very closely with Greg at GSC in development and testing of the Mitsu cams. I can say from personal experience that the larger cams definitely take some skill to tune to idle and shouldnt be bought just because bigger is better. Large motors help the issue, idling in open loop, e85, etc. all go a long way to make it work better.

    Having dyno'd S3s in small turbo cars I dont think they will help anything running smaller than a 3582 (standard) or equivalent Evo (FP Black). The S2 works great on 16G cars much as the 4R does but with improved manners at low speed (idle/cruise) and no variation in dowel pin location. To be completely honest we have only seen that issue in the Evos and only the Evo IX on a few occasions. S1s have very good manners in all enviroments, sacrifice no spool, and are typically worth 25-30whp on average over stock. We have seen as much as 45whp in SD cars on 16Gs though when the rest of the mods are there, larger FMIC/exhaust/good intake setup/etc.

    Aaron aka JB for the Evo guys here
     
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  12. VETTE_50_TH

    VETTE_50_TH Banned Member

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    I tried calling you guys but no one picked up. Give me a pm. I want to discuss those cams with you guys.
     
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  13. NDgsx

    NDgsx DSM Wiseman

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    Calling now, phone rings off the hook.
     
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  14. VETTE_50_TH

    VETTE_50_TH Banned Member

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    Good talking to you. Lots of good info coming from english racing people. Cant wait to get my set.
     
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  15. ViciousLord

    ViciousLord Proven Member

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    have any overlays for the S1's to compare against the HKS 264 or 272s?
     
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  16. LucasEnglish

    LucasEnglish Proven Member

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    Sorry this is the only over lay i have. Truly testing lots of cams on one car cost lots of $$ and time. We were just lucky enough to have this car and the only time lost was a few strap downs on the dyno.

    From seeing what these did and from the last few sets of FP4s I would not even recommend doing HKS272/FP2 sized cams unless doing valve springs was not an option. On these new generation style cams they even idle smoother then HKS272s.
     
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  17. GDNF2ET

    GDNF2ET Proven Member

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    Whats your favorite cam for an automatic ?
     
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  18. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    My S2's arrive tomorrow! :hellyeah:
     
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  19. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Freelancer

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    What do you supose the power curve would be like with an old school frh intake, or one of the more newer designs?

    Also what kind of springs would be needed with these? I'm running stock evo8 beehives now.
     
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  20. LucasEnglish

    LucasEnglish Proven Member

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    Well for S2s in all the EVOs we always up grade the springs to at least the GSC or FP beehives. Really dont have much good 1g intake data. Most intakes will give hp above 6k and lose below. I would think 7k a good intake we would be up another 20hp
     
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  21. NDgsx

    NDgsx DSM Wiseman

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    The Little Auto has HKS272s in it from when I bought it from TJ and then sold it to Luke. It is a 2.3 now and running a larger turbo but I feel it could benefit from S2s. Jeff will be running S3s in the Drag car this season, but to answer the question specifically, autos need to spool quick. If you are trying to do this with no bottle you need a big motor and a lot of off boost power. Giving up some spool isnt good unless you are making up for it somehow.

    I like the top end myself so in cars that are revving out Drive, these will help.
     
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  22. LucasEnglish

    LucasEnglish Proven Member

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    I have been thinking about these cams for the little auto but I dont think I would seem much gain since the way the 16g spikes peak hp is around 5.5-6k and I shift about 6.2-6.5k. While with the S2 I might be another 20hp past 7k I will still be the down side of peak power and with the auto and using OD I stay right in that peak power zone. And as Aaron said it would also slow the stall down on the car.

    I feel with the Green that is on the car now a set of S2 would really help since it would jump the peak power into the upper 6k range.

    I would do these hands down on a 5spd 16g car since spreading the HP range will help a ton.
     
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  23. NDgsx

    NDgsx DSM Wiseman

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    Here is an example of the S3s idling in a 2.0L SD Evo 8 which is very similar to the 2G as far as the head, intake, and SD.

    YouTube - Cameron 2003 Evolution VIII Idle on GSC S3 Cams Stock ECU SD FP Black Turbo

    Custom grinds arent going to be available at this time as the S3 has proven to make the same amount of power as the S2R in my car in comparable builds. We are thinking of organizing a group buy for any of the new GSC cam sets whether the S1 to the S3. If this is something that might interest at least 5 members (10 preferably) I will get it going.

    Aaron
     
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  24. VETTE_50_TH

    VETTE_50_TH Banned Member

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    Sound mean.
     
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  25. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    So since this motor is stock I assume you guys just dropped these right in.

    My S2's will be degreed on the engine stand!
    Numbers will be documented, then hopefully the adjustables will find more power on the dyno!
     
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