head gasket?

[RACER-X]

has there been any recalls for the 97-99 n/t head gasket? i'm smelling coolent and it's not comming from my hoses, and on the bottom left there is oil build up and my thinking i may have blown a gasket?

has anyone had to replace one? if so how much did it cost? i don't have the time or necessary tools to do the job myself.

 

[MrDSM]

All 420a's have the problem with the paper thin head gasket that blows. I bet you could snare a good one new from Napa or wherever for less than 50 dollars surely.

 

[Doug99RS]

No there hasn't been any recalls related to the headgasket. There's been technical service bulletins related to it but they are only advice and not an authorization for repair nor and extension of any warranty.

The problem with the gasket hasn't been so much it's thickness as it has been the composition of it. They leak at the oil restrictor which is at the rear of the block on the side closest to the firewall. The original design was composite. It was discovered that the expansion and contraction rates of the aluminum head in comparison to the cast iron block were different. This caused uneven movements which basically rubbed the gasket to death. Add in the fact that there's a passage for pressurized oil right there and there's your leak.

The redesigned headgasket is multiple layers of steal. These allow for an even temperature transition between the two metals. The torque specs have also changed as well so any service manual that is 98 or older may not have the correct specs. The MLS headgasket was introduced half-way through the 98 year model on all chrysler line vehicles but never was put on ANY of the 2.0L Front exhaust engines found in our talons, eclipses, avengers and sebring coupes.

You can pick up an upper gasket kit for around the $125 range give or take $25. But the repair really needs to be done by someone with the proper tools and enough skill. You're probably looking in the 400-600 range when you throw labor, upper gasket kit, timing belt, water pump, coolant, oil and filter. All depends on where you go and if you do it right the first time.
Doug

 

[RACER-X]

thanks guys, i appreciate the help, and much needed info.

 

[wicked93GS]

all 4 cylider engines with aluminum heads and cast iron blocks have this problem really, since none I have ever seen come with an MLS head gasket from the factory, the friction of the differently expanding metal rates that doug was mentioning is only part of the problem, the other part is when you dont change your antifreeze often enough it turns acidic and the coolant running through the head eats away at the paper gaskets, which wouldnt happen with multi layer steel ones, I think all manufactures pourposely build this failure in so you have to bring it back to them to get it fixed just after the warranty runs out

 

[RACER-X]

yeah, that makes sense.

 

[Doug99RS]

Originally posted by wicked93GS
I think all manufactures pourposely build this failure in so you have to bring it back to them to get it fixed just after the warranty runs out

You know... this is a prime example of ignorance. Do you realize how many headgasket repairs Chrysler gave away (did as a warranty repair) AFTER the customer's basic warranty ran out?
Chrysler KNEW they had a problem and were taking many steps to extend peoples warranties for this particular repair because they knew they had a problem.

And further more... if it was intentional then why did they change the gasket's in the middle of the 1998 model year so that all the ones in 99 (420A front exhaust excluded) HAD AN MLS HEADGASKET from the factory?

Second of all... the headgasket leaks externally from the oil restrictor area which is on the engine's right rear corner. It's not until excessive wear that the oil then leaks in to the coolant passages thus making a big mess of both the back side of the block and the coolant system. ONLY in extreme cases does the coolant and oil mix. In situations where the leak is caught early there is NO oil in the coolant meaning the oil leak came first and the coolant/oil contamination came second.

And you bring up a very good point about the coolant and electrolosis (sp?). The coolant passages are course causing turbulance. The turbulance builds up static electricity when then eats away at the aluminum. This can be checked by inserting a lead from a multi-meter in to the coolant and then to battery negative. You will find a small amount of voltage present. I forget the exact tolerances but i want to say that 0.1 to 0.2 volts is acceptable and anything higher requires draining and refilling. In some cases multiple drains and refills may be required. I drain and refill mine once a year. It's like $10.00 for coolant and we've got one of the nicest drain screws I've seen yet. So why risk it?

 

[wicked93GS]

heh, I wasnt serious, geez, it just seems like that sometimes, just a beef of mine about mating a cast iron block with an aluminum head, I dont see the need for a cast iron block myself, I think they'd do just as well with an aluminum block

 

[Kirby]

I believe that on the 95 talon the right rear corner bolt is also a tad to long for the hole as well. I believe that it bottoms out a little bit before you can apply the proper TQ.

 

[RACER-X]

well i found out that between the machine of the block, gasket, and labor is going to run me $1,000.00, but i don't want the factory gasket so which gasket should i switch to and where can i get it?

 

[Doug99RS]

Why don't you want the factory gasket?

 

[TalonSpeed]

Originally posted by RACER-X
well i found out that between the machine of the block, gasket, and labor is going to run me $1,000.00, but i don't want the factory gasket so which gasket should i switch to and where can i get it?

If I were you I would get the MLS gasket. I wouldn't trust any other gaskets, the old paper gasket has already proven faulty. I trust this new gasket from Mopar. Check out this site for cheap prices on the gasket set:

Cheap 420a parts


I also would get:
16 rocker arms - part # 4884042AA - $127.04 set
4318035 $8.63 Mopar Head Gasket Sealant
Head Gasket MLS 95-99 DOHC 2.0 5014134AD $93.75


And this from www.blackdogmotorsports.com

Mopar Head Bolts, DOHC: $36
Mopar Lash Adjusters, updated "PT" style: $93 per set of 16
Blackdog Motorsports Solid Timing Belt Tensioner $50
Mopar Timing Belts DOHC: $80

Total: $488.42

 

[dsmrunnah95]

Even with the heads being different, we can still use the head gasket off of the neon?

 

[Doug99RS]

The blocks are still basically the same from the neon and the eclipse 420A's. I would verify all the part numbers before buying anything but I have never seen the MLS headgasket that replaces the composite gasket fail on any car I've put one on. Nor have I seen them come in with an oil leak after the MLS headgasket was installed by someone else.
Doug

 

[RACER-X]

talon speed, do i really need all that just to replace my gasket? .. i mean i know i need the gasket of course, the sealant, and head bolts, but do i really need everything else?

 

[Doug99RS]

The "rocker arms" are of a different design than original. They are probably the p.t. cruiser followers and the lifters are upgrades as well. They are not a must but they allow for better oiling and the followers have little ears on them that help prevent it from falling off the tip of the valve at high rpm.

This is what I'm putting in my 99 eclipse now at 70,000 miles (all the stock replacement stuff) All parts are Mopar stock replacements:
New timing belt
New water pump
New timing belt tensioner
New timing belt tensioner pulley/bracket assembly
New timing belt idler pulley
New MLS headgasket (full upper gasket kit)

Explanation: I do not plan on going back in to the engine on the eclipse unless I do bottom end work later on. But by then I will be ready to replace everything all over again. The water pump showed signs of leaking inside the belt area, the timing belt and timing belt tensioner are a must as is the mopar MLS headgasket. The Idler pulley and the tensioner/bracket assembly are being replaced becuase they frequently fail causing the timing belt to jump time and bend valves. I would not recomend leaving the parts out if you are over 100,000 miles. You spend an extra $200 or so now to keep from spending over 1500 later because you cheaped out.

Upgrades are as follows:
Crower stage 2 cams (p/n 64462)
Crower Valve springs and titanium retainers
AEM Adjustable cam gears
Howell Oversized valves
PT Cruiser Followers/rocker arm
Mopar Performance lifters (PT Cruiser equivalent)
Mad cylinder head work.
Explanation: Because I can.

I would really suggest that if you are undertaken that extensive of a repair that you do it right one time. It will be far more expensive to replace broken parts that a failed part wiped out.
Doug

 

[TalonSpeed]

Originally posted by RACER-X
talon speed, do i really need all that just to replace my gasket? .. i mean i know i need the gasket of course, the sealant, and head bolts, but do i really need everything else?

Well usually when a person does a headgasket job they do the timing belt also since it has to come off, and while the belt is off, he\she usually changes the tensioner, tensioner pulley, and water pump.

Lifters and rocker arms can actually be changed withough taking anything off except the valve cover, but that requires popping them out of place with two long screw drivers. The lifters and rocker arms really arent need unless you constantly rev real high, or have installed upgraded cams.

So basically a headgasket goes along with a timing belt job. When was the last time u changed your timing belt??

 

[Doug99RS]

Originally posted by TalonSpeed




Lifters and rocker arms can actually be changed withough taking anything off except the valve cover, but that requires popping them out of place with two long screw drivers. The lifters and rocker arms really arent need unless you constantly rev real high, or have installed upgraded cams.

So basically a headgasket goes along with a timing belt job. When was the last time u changed your timing belt??

Other way around. Timing belt goes with the headgasket. It's not necessary to replace a headgasket every time you do a timing belt.

As for the prying of lifters and followers from underneath of a bolted down cam will promote breakage of the camshaft caps, scoring of the cylinder head where the valve cover sits and is just not the best of way to do this. Lifting the cams out of the way is the best way to do this which would involve removal of the timing belt. The cams can be tilted but the timing cover will break and the camshafts will be scored by the cylinder head because they are not being lifted straight up.

Use extreme care when taking questionable repair procedures.

 

[RACER-X]

my timing belt and balancer have about 10,000 miles or less on them.

 

[RACER-X]

however; both you and doug bring up good points. i might as well spend a couple of hundred more and do it right then in 6 months to a year and have to do it again spending more money.

thanks for the much needed help. so it looks to be about a $1,200 to $1,500 dollar job now; good thing i'm working o.t.

 

[Doug99RS]

Oh, you're working over time huh? Guess now would be a good time to mention consultation fees.

 

[wookieneck]

My 133k head is at the machine shop as we speak , what are the Torque specs for the MLS? I think my manual has the older specs for the toilet paper gasket.

 

[LifeRollsOn]

I heard from a few people that you can make your compression a little higher by putting in a different type of headgasket? How is this possible or is this only if you have a compression leak to begin with?

 

[Kirby]

Hey racer-X, your car is a 4g63 right? Your car is listed as a tsi AWD. If that is correct then large parts of this thread are usless to you. If you have the 4g63 then everything pretaining to the 420a is not the right info. I know you asked about the N/T but if you are AWD then your a turbo car, unless you have both, in which case I'm going to look stupid...

 

[wookieneck]

You can put on a thinner head gasket to bring the compression up slightly. It effectively makes less displacement with the same stroke=higher compression ratio. Im changing mine out right now , I made some calls to try and get a thinner copper gasket for future boost, but they all told me that our gasket is pretty thin factory and we couldnt get one thin enough to make a noticeable difference. I guess you could always plane the head off, but then you run the risk of those pesky valves hitting the piston thingys