2G Fuel pump and injector question

[NeedTalonNow]

Was just wondering if i could upgrade my stock injectors and fuel pump without running too rich. Currently have a 14b and k&n fipk as my only performance upgrades. Have an AEM wideband not intalled yet. Would 550cc injectors and walbro 190 cause me to run rich without any other air upgrades?

 

[Bud92gsx]

They say a 190 won't require an afpr. It's not a bad idea. You might want to reflash/ tune, and add a couple more lbs of boost. Why not?

 

[pauleyman]

Was just wondering if i could upgrade my stock injectors and fuel pump without running too rich. Currently have a 14b and k&n fipk as my only performance upgrades. Have an AEM wideband not intalled yet. Would 550cc injectors and walbro 190 cause me to run rich without any other air upgrades?

No. You cannot change injectors without changing a tune. Ecu does not know what size injectors you run. It will fire pulsewidth as if you have 450s. You need some method to compensate. The most common is a computer change, ie reflash for those that can or ecmlink etc.

 

[chrysler kid]

The car will run like sh1t and you risk spinning a bearing by drowning the Pistons and crank in fuel.

I'm positive this is the reason so many Facebook "builds" are sold with "fresh build motor with a rod knock"

 

[pauleyman]

Was just wondering if i could upgrade my stock injectors and fuel pump without running too rich. Currently have a 14b and k&n fipk as my only performance upgrades. Have an AEM wideband not intalled yet. Would 550cc injectors and walbro 190 cause me to run rich without any other air upgrades?

Better question. Why do you think you need more fuel with a no mod car and 14b?

 

[Spinalsign5357]

He probably wants to install his upgraded parts , as he gets them . Rather then wait , until it make sense to . You can install your 550cc's . Your car will run , idle , and drive fine . But ... it will be rich in spots . More so , where the ecu is in open loop ( warm up , and wot ) . In between , the ecu will try and lean out your afr , to achieve stoich . And lean afr's for light to mid throttle . Obviously , the bigger you go , the ecu will not be able to adjust . Causing hard starts , bogging , ect . In short , 550cc's aren't a big jump from 450cc's . You can install , just don't beat on it . If I were you , I'd install the wideband , familiarize myself with the stock afr's , then add the 550's and fuel pump . An afpr would be helpful , and can be gotten cheap . Not saying you're poor , and I'm not rich ... I Just remember my low budget days , and installing parts as I got them . Ideally ... Get a tuning platform , install the wideband , and go from there .

 

[boostdawd]

U can run evo 560cc injectors and an evo maf to balance each other out. More air and more fuel. Budget in mind of course. If u want to do it the right way then get an safc or ecmlink to be able to control your fuel upgrades.

Having a walbro 190 wont do u any good if u arent going to increase fuel.

 

[Brembo]

The car will run like sh1t and you risk spinning a bearing by drowning the Pistons and crank in fuel.

I'm positive this is the reason so many Facebook "builds" are sold with "fresh build motor with a rod knock"

Or 3000 miles on fress rebuild or 2000hp part out, fresh rebuild or lost interest 4.2 second build. Funny that someone else thinks like me. haha

 

[PartoutDSM]

you should not up your injectors without a tune. that's a dangerous game your playing in the first place without some sort of tuning going on

 

[pauleyman]

He probably wants to install his upgraded parts , as he gets them . Rather then wait , until it make sense to . You can install your 550cc's . Your car will run , idle , and drive fine . But ... it will be rich in spots . More so , where the ecu is in open loop ( warm up , and wot ) . In between , the ecu will try and lean out your afr , to achieve stoich . And lean afr's for light to mid throttle . Obviously , the bigger you go , the ecu will not be able to adjust . Causing hard starts , bogging , ect . In short , 550cc's aren't a big jump from 450cc's . You can install , just don't beat on it . If I were you , I'd install the wideband , familiarize myself with the stock afr's , then add the 550's and fuel pump . An afpr would be helpful , and can be gotten cheap . Not saying you're poor , and I'm not rich ... I Just remember my low budget days , and installing parts as I got them . Ideally ... Get a tuning platform , install the wideband , and go from there .

I disagree

He probably wants to install his upgraded parts , as he gets them . Rather then wait , until it make sense to . You can install your 550cc's . Your car will run , idle , and drive fine . But ... it will be rich in spots . More so , where the ecu is in open loop ( warm up , and wot ) . In between , the ecu will try and lean out your afr , to achieve stoich . And lean afr's for light to mid throttle . Obviously , the bigger you go , the ecu will not be able to adjust . Causing hard starts , bogging , ect . In short , 550cc's aren't a big jump from 450cc's . You can install , just don't beat on it . If I were you , I'd install the wideband , familiarize myself with the stock afr's , then add the 550's and fuel pump . An afpr would be helpful , and can be gotten cheap . Not saying you're poor , and I'm not rich ... I Just remember my low budget days , and installing parts as I got them . Ideally ... Get a tuning platform , install the wideband , and go from there .

I disagree. Closed loop doesn't have enough to compensate. This is a bad plan without a tuning solutuon.

 

[Spinalsign5357]

Pauly ... we're not staring at fuel trims , to determine , how much the ecu is yanking fuel . But , 550's aren't big enough , to cause bad drive-ability problems , but are big enough , to hurt mpg's , and make acceleration slightly sluggish , in spots . This can be countered , a few different ways , without tuning . The argument , isn't what should be done , but what can ... He won't hurt anything , short , mid , or long term . So-long ... as he doesn't wot every second , and keeps up with his maintenance . Now ... If he starts venturing over 550cc injectors , then the ecu won't be able to pull enough fuel , as it's maxed , and drive-ability problems , begin .

 

[chrysler kid]

No. Do not upgrade injectors without any style of engine management.

It does not serve any purpose. Your car will run worse no matter what boost level your at. Your car will still hit fuel cut because the mass air flow sensor still thinks that the air flow exceeds maximum value. You use tuning to reset the mass air flow sensor to understand new air flow values and new injector settings. Again our stock ecu thinks you are still on a stock turbo and stock injectors, you lose horsepower no matter what

Just tossing in new injectors serves no purpose. It does not raise the amount of boost you can run, it does not make it safer to boost more. The computer determines fuel cut from the Mass air flow sensor. The car will be slower, and run worse.

So again, the question stands. Why do you think you need bigger fuel injectors for a 14b.

 

[Spinalsign5357]

I'll end on this ... The OP asked , could he , not should he . So , could he run 550's without running to rich . Yes . Should he run 550's ... that depends . He may have engine management on the way , so throwing the injectors in , a bit early , is do-able . Being , that they aren't too much larger than stocks . Also , the fuel pump won't over run things too much either . I'm not saying the stock ecu is tuning his 550's , just stating it's doing the best it can to remove the excess , in closed loop . Which is enough , to be drive-able , start-able , ect . Chysler kid ... 550's aren't large enough , to dilute the engine oil fast enough , to spin bearings . That takes a bit of time , and is more of a mid to long term problem . That's like saying , the excess fuel , will build up carbon deposits on the pistons , leading to pre detonation , and engine damage . True ... but a long term effect . Later

 

[chrysler kid]

I'll end on this ... The OP asked , could he , not should he . So , could he run 550's without running to rich . Yes . Should he run 550's ... that depends . He may have engine management on the way , so throwing the injectors in , a bit early , is do-able . Being , that they aren't too much larger than stocks . Also , the fuel pump won't over run things too much either . I'm not saying the stock ecu is tuning his 550's , just stating it's doing the best it can to remove the excess , in closed loop . Which is enough , to be drive-able , start-able , ect . Chysler kid ... 550's aren't large enough , to dilute the engine oil fast enough , to spin bearings . That takes a bit of time , and is more of a mid to long term problem . That's like saying , the excess fuel , will build up carbon deposits on the pistons , leading to pre detonation , and engine damage . True ... but a long term effect . Later

The website is 14 years old

If you built a twin engine eclipse by yourself, engineering and designing everything yourself, his question about injectors should sound like your child asking you if it's ok to eat tide pods.

The answer is no. Children don't know better. If he's asking because he's slapping together a build from spare parts, sure do whatever. But he's asking a casual question about a deep issue.

So no, don't eat the tide pod dammit.

 

[Mello]

FWIW go up to 550's from 450's is about a 22% increase, which is not small enough to be ignored. The best advise is "this would be a bad idea". If upgrade plans are in the future than it would be wisest to wait and do larger injectors when the other proper supporting are being installed.

 

[pauleyman]

FWIW go up to 550's from 450's is about a 22% increase, which is not small enough to be ignored. The best advise is "this would be a bad idea". If upgrade plans are in the future than it would be wisest to wait and do larger injectors when the other proper supporting are being installed.

Bingo. It is not large enough to be ignored. Also there is no reason to even do it. It isn't like the OP should do this because it saves time during other upgrades etc. They can be added at any time and now is not that time. Opinions are like a**holes. Everybody has one. Ive been doing this 26 years now. It's a bad idea. That is my opinion.

 

[Spinalsign5357]

I'm done with the OP issue , just touching on the twin engine comment . Yes , I built my car , from front to back , with no outside assistance . Even did it without a lift , which was interesting . This is my second twin engine build . I'm a Master Certified mechanic . Which alone , doesn't mean much . But does punch up , the ability to understand engine theory . I'm new to this site , but not to the game , and known of this site , for years .

 

[NeedTalonNow]

Thank all for your feedback. I am planning link and and other mods. It just probably wont be til next year. I was mostly curious if moving up to slightly bigger would cause bad running conditions.

 

[pauleyman]

Thank all for your feedback. I am planning link and and other mods. It just probably wont be til next year. I was mostly curious if moving up to slightly bigger would cause bad running conditions.

Yes it will. 22 percent is not slightly bigger.

 

[chrysler kid]

I'm done with the OP issue , just touching on the twin engine comment . Yes , I built my car , from front to back , with no outside assistance . Even did it without a lift , which was interesting . This is my second twin engine build . I'm a Master Certified mechanic . Which alone , doesn't mean much . But does punch up , the ability to understand engine theory . I'm new to this site , but not to the game , and known of this site , for years .

I've seen every one of your posts on this site. There are only 3 maybe 4 of us who view all board activity. I was specifically talking directly to you and about you to make you understand the context of this specific conversation.

I'm not sure who you're indirectly replying to, and why you think I somehow made you need to defend your abilities; I was trying to show you why you don't tell some one else to make a compromise to build a car

Good day sir

 

[Spinalsign5357]

Text is hard to interpret sometimes , as there are two meanings to ... if you built your car , and " If " (as-if , attaching skepticism ) . I don't comment much , cause the general theme , in these type of forums , is safety first , by the book . Which is fine , but hinders exploration , and makes the ability to make things work , almost non existent . Also , most that visit , forums in general , are learning peer to peer . It's hard to break a mold , as generally , the knowledgeable comment ( or gives advice ) , and it gets regurgitated . Higher ranking , or members that been around a long time , generally don't get challenged . And there word is gospel . I wasn't here to bicker , just gave a contrast , as I speak from both sides of the fence . I can make things work , and go by the book . Going by the book is always the safest . But if a person , asks a question , in the making things work category , I have the " parameters " , to answer . Not saying , everything I say is right . And I know when a horse is dead .

 

[doubleclutch]

Someone , please close , this thread , before , we use up , all of the worlds , commas .