FP68HTA - Back to Back Vs an E3 16g!

Posted by EVO_THREE, Dec 2, 2009
Turbo System Tech - 4G63 turbos, Intercooling, Boost Control, Wastegates, etc.

  1. EVO_THREE

    EVO_THREE Proven Member

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    Seeing as I can't post in any sections other than noob - here I go.

    I've recently ordered (should be here any day) the FP68HTA through MAP (Cheers Adam). It's being shipped down here in Australia :) and I'll do some back to back dyno runs to gauge how it performs for us 'normal' folk running basic bolt-ons.

    My mods are in my profile (my build log has dissapeared??). Car runs fairly hard with a japanese ecu in it (Tomei) but detonation is a killer above 20psi. I have NOT tuned the car at all.

    9.0:1 compression


    Here is the plan:

    Baseline power run at chosen Dyno Dynamics dyno in shoot 4F.
    Return home, unbolt the stock Evo 3 big 16g turbo and bolt the FP68HTA up - change nothing..
    Return to the dyno, aim to run run the same boost as before - print off the map overlays showing boost, AFR's, torque and power.

    Turn up the boost if it alows. I'm hoping the FP68 is a little more timing friendly than the E3 turbo? we'll see...

    Can't get more 'real world' than:

    Unbolt a genuine evo 3 turbo from a genuine evo 3 - stock manifolds, stock intercooler, stock intercooler pipes. Just some 260/260 cams, ecu & 3".
    Bolt on an FP68HTA and see what the difference is at the same boost, then see how much more boost (if any) it will run before it dets..

    Same AFR's, same timing - no tricks, no meth - pump fuel

    I will:

    Post up the timing maps once it's tuned on the Haltech
    Video what I can
    validate any increase in power with MPH at the strip


    I'm not after a big turbo (nor do I need it), I'm after a better evo 3 turbo with more usable power.
    I don't want massive mph, it's a circuit car. I need autox type power delivery with good midrange torque.. I want a bit more top end for when I do go to the strip and the bigger circuits hurt the 16g's top end (well, lack of top end)...

    Anything anyone wants to see done while I'm at it or thinks I should do?

    Unfortunately I can't log the Tomei ECU (OBDI).. tried and failed - nothing talks to it..

    I'll update as I get results.. The only problem is it's coming into summer now and temperatures are getting up to ~ 104 Deg F this weekend and getting hotter from there. Results won't be as good as they could be but they will be comparable.


    Then: once all the comparrisons are made I'll tune it with the Haltech E11v2 I have now installed. Return to the strip - Check the MPH.
    #1
  2. DSM_PWR

    DSM_PWR Proven Member

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    Sweet!

    This will be great as ive been wondering how much difference in change the new HTA will improve spool/power/lbs min

    Great work :thumb:
    #2
  3. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    You have a great idea, but only one problem.
    You claim you're not going to change anything about your tune.
    This in my mind is a bad idea.
    The FP68HTA is going to flow more air than a standard Evo III 16g at the same boost level, and instead of the boost tapering off up top like a standard Evo III 16g, it'll hold to redline better.

    If anything, I suggest raising the octane of your fuel.
    This way when the FP68HTA flows more air at the same boost level and your A/F ratio leans out throughout your power band, you'll at least have some protection against detonation.

    Detonation, or Knock will bend and break OEM connecting rods and hammer rod bearings and cause them to spin.

    You have been forewarned, and good luck!

    ***Edit*** I mentioned Knock will bend and break OEM Internals, he does not have OEM Internals, but nevertheless, Knock will kill any engine, especially if it's 104* outside in the shade... LOL ***Edit***
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2009
    #3
  4. EVO_THREE

    EVO_THREE Proven Member

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    Strm Trpr: Point taken, although..

    The japanese ecu's, if anything 'go rich' when boost is turned up. It already pulls 10.0's up top..

    Obviously if the turbo does really well and it goes lean we'll get off it, so thanks.



    fwiw, running forged 2.0 - Eagle rods, Manley pistons.
    #4
  5. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    What octane fuel are you running and what is your peak timing at 7k rpm?
    10.0 is very rich.
    I can run 11.0 on 91 octane at 20psi with 14* timing
    It's all about airflow tuning, but then again you are running a 9.0 compression motor.

    Oh, and FWIW, when I run richer 10.5 it knocks...
    If I lean it out knock goes away.

    I have yet to tune it with my new fuel pump though, so those numbers are hopefully going to improve.
    #5
  6. Dsmj89

    Dsmj89 Proven Member

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    I'm very interested to see the turnout of this turbo as well compared to the 16g. :)
    #6
  7. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    Holy Sh!t you have 1600 posts in what, 1 year.
    Damn you've been busy... :p
    #7
  8. Dsmj89

    Dsmj89 Proven Member

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    Hahhaa oops. I tend to post both at home and work. :coy:
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  9. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

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    How so? Compressor efficiency have very little to do with the mass flow in the compressor. Choke flow does. But if he's not going to push either to choke, then you'll see similar flow from both. They both have the same hotside.
    #9
  10. toofast82

    toofast82 Proven Member

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    I believe the OP was referring to the JDM ecu's leaner factory set target a/fs versus the usdm's very rich 9.3:1 at 7k
    Anyways the results will be very interesting to see!
    #10
  11. cdm_sd02

    cdm_sd02 Supporting VIP

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    I look forward to seeing the results
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  12. xreaction122

    xreaction122 Proven Member

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    Remember, there are no USDM evo3 ecus:p
    #12
  13. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    Whatever you say Haas, you're the "DSM Wiseman" :coy:.
    #13
  14. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

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    I really want to know what you think. I'm not a wise man. Just a "wiseman". . .
    #14
  15. jjrock5

    jjrock5 Proven Member

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    Very cool test as not many have seen what this turbo can do. When do you plan on doing it? ASAP! LOL
    #15
  16. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    Well, you know what I thought, and perhaps I thought wrong.
    I just figured that the HTA Wheel is going to push more air per psi that it may lean out his tune.
    Maybe I worded my original statement incorrectly.
    But we all won't know until we see his results.
    Nah Matt, you're cool, I just build my GSX to road race and I'm going through boost withdrawls like a mutha.
    I haven't driven my car since 6th of November cause I killed my front brake calipers.
    Not to worry though, TCE Wilwood BBK is on the way...

    I don't have a clue how any of this sh!t works, I just turn in and gas it....
    #16
  17. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

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    Makes sense. Except that if the compressor pushed more air then it would raise the pressure, and the wastegate would adjust accordingly. IF the massflow is speculated to go up with the lower temperature output from the compressor, then take a look at what the difference in final temp is with the same 75% efficienct front mount intercooler using this little calculator. Click.

    I knew what you were saying. I was hoping you would talk about efficiency of the compressor allowing the wastegate to linger open longer :) That WOULD give much more flow out the turbine: less work to spin the compressor at a certain volume flow means less work is needed from the turbine and thus more exhaust is shunted giving higher overall VE (flow). I'm still suggesting peak flow per psi would be the same. No matter the setup, at 27-8psi, the evo3 16g turbine is shut. And it will shut at a slightly higher flow for a slightly more efficiency compressor. But still it will close long before choke flow of any compressor is seen. We're not talking about a t4 ptrim turbine wheel here.

    No beef. Just wanted to discuss :). You know I know you're bright, like you know I knew what you were thinking. You know? LOL
    #17
  18. toofast82

    toofast82 Proven Member

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    Kidding me? You don't think I know thatWTF
    That's not going to qualify as my "learn something new everyday" , sorry:nono:

    I have personally viewed the fuel maps of the jdm evo3 ecu and they do run a leaner fuel mix versus the USDM T/E/L ECUs
    #18
  19. Rockbmx1

    Rockbmx1 Proven Member

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    This is from fp's website. Althought he switched from a small 16g, I think it still proves the point that at the same psi it will raise the massflow.

    I can't wait to see the results.
    #19
  20. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    You know, I read that too, so maybe that's why I thought what I thought.
    I'm gonna come out and ask a stupid question.

    Does ^^^ mean at the same boost level Curt noticed a 10lb/min increase in Airflow?

    So that's basically the same as saying a GT35R at 20psi flows a sh!t ton more air than an Evo III 16g at 20psi.

    That's what I thought, but damn that's a huge increase in Airflow.
    That's good for approximately 100hp to the crank.
    #20
  21. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

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    At a boost where neither the 16g nor the hta is choked? yea, definately. Since it takes less energy to spin the compressor at the same flow. . . Please note: No one commented on the difference in boost used. The small 16g could have been at it's limit (likely on CB's car).

    You push either turbo then the flow per psi comes out in the wash. Who doesn't push a 16g these days? This turbo is all about finding the limit of the td05h hotside. Not about giving lots more flow per psi at higher boost levels required for 450-500whp.

    I'd still like to see any logs of a turbo using the IDENTICAL hotside but swapping to a bigger (or more efficient) compressor yield an appreciable increase in lb/min airflow. Of course, at the same ambient conditions. And 1-2 lb/min under choke flow of the smaller compressor.

    Thermodynamics is a reality. Please try this out. Look at the difference at 70% efficiency and 60% efficiency with the same intercooler used. I really saw ZERO difference going from the small 16g to 18g (same hotside) except after the choke flow of the 16g. And as well going from the t31 bep housing 50-trim to a 60-1 t31 60-1 until after choke (over 50lb/min).
    #21
  22. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    And, supposedly the HTA wheels sustain higher pressure ratios deeper into the rpms....

    Wouldn't ^^^ be the difference between a 14b and a Evo III 16g?
    At the same boost pressure the EIII unit will out flow the 14b.

    Another pair of excellent candidates would be the FP3052 and the FP3065.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2009
    #22
  23. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

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    14b has a 6cm^2 turbine housing and the 16g has 7cm^2 housing. Makes a HUGE difference in the range of which the those compressor wheels flow. FP68HTA with a nice fat turbine housing? that would be kick ass:hellyeah:

    Yep. The fp3052 has done some hellatious times. . .That the fp3065 has only done at a flow that the 3052 cant sustain. Definately a good comparison.
    #23
  24. Strm Trpr

    Strm Trpr Proven Member

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    Ah, never ran a 14b.
    Again I stand corrected.

    FP's turbo's are the Cat's A$$ of turbo's, and they know it, so let's see what happens with his test.

    And to the OP, sorry for turning this thread into a different discussion.
    I guess we're all excited to see your results.
    When do you think you'll be ready to conduct such a test?

    And, if you want to start a results thread, please link us to it.
    #24
  25. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

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    I suspect it will do excellent. It would be foolish not to push both turbos and retune and everything that is associated with it. A turbo upgrade is a bridge to better performance. If it allows a better tune, then that is a worthy advantage. If it allows more airflow before the wastegate shuts and shuts the gate later giving more torque, then that's an advantage. If the 16g hotside can be pushed even farther than what the evo3 16g compressor can throw at it, then the larger compressor is an advantage. The difference to the wheels after the corrections for the different characteristics is what will tell us the difference in worth :thumb: It should be a great option to those wanting to push things. And most of us do:) It's silly for a turbo on'y to be tuned run at a psi that another was run. How much more boost and how much fartehr can this turbo go vs. the evo3 16g is the real question . . .
    #25

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