2G Fp hta green failure

Posted by fabian95tsi, Mar 20, 2017

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  1. fabian95tsi

    fabian95tsi Proven Member

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    Hello fellow tuners and boost heads, I come to you guys for a little input from the guys that have been in the game a long time.

    Back in 2013 I had purchased my fp hta green, fp race manifold, fp feed line, fp inline filter (red), fp blue drain line all at the same time. Now I did not use this turbo until the I had gathered all my parts that I needed, ecu, fuel setup etc. Well long story short my stock 7bolt took a dump at 500miles, just locked up end of story. I had purchased a built motor from a member her with 0 miles. Got everything swapped over, installed all my parts off from the previous motor, fired her up, changed the oil, broke in the motor by going on some highway cruises and letting the motor decelerate on its own, changed the oil again at about 50miles, then at 500miles, 1000 miles and then once again at 3000 miles. I've been running Valvoline vr1 1030. Each time I would pull the inline filter and inspect it for any debris...none at all.

    The turbo is fed off the oil filter housing as recommended by fp and the filter is right off the ofh. Now I got my car tuned and at that time I noticed a tiny bit of smoke at idle, and it wouldn't smoke all the idle, kind of intermittent...came time to get the car tuned on 91 pump and e85. Well let me tell you guys this turbo performs beautifully, at 25psi on e85 I would log 49lbmin at 6700 and no sign of if stopping, maybe due to the jmf race manifold and fp2s. But I really really loved this turbo. It spooled plenty fast to be very fun driving around and I honestly say I was ready for 30psi...then my clutch goes... Fast forward to about 8000k miles.. I have 8000 on the motor, tre trans, and about 8500 on the turbo, Injectors, and anything exhaust related.

    Well that smoking came back with a vengeance..at first it was still intermittent but it would definitely smoke enough to make you want to drive the car off a cliff...but it would only smoke at idle and never under boost. So I started messaging and reading and came to a conclusion that I possibly have a valve seal going bad. Or so I thought. I went ahead and did a compression test 160 on all 4 cylinders, leak down showed 10% across the board. So at least my motor is healthy. Up to about 3 weeks ago I was driving the car and when I came to a stop, take a look behind me and my car is smoking like a freight train, it never stopped smoking just kept coming, under boost, off boost. I parked the since then. So now it's time to tear into the car, i fire her up and at around 40sec my car starts to fog up the yard with smoke.I go and check my turbo, and it has a crazy amount of side to side play and no in and out, and does look like the compressor wheel touched....now I'm thinking to myself oooook. Didn't have that when I previously checked it.

    I go and pull the turbo and the o2 housing, turbine housing are soaked in oil. My exhaust ports have a lot of carbon build up but no real trace of oil. So I guess my problem was obviously my 8500 mile fp green..so I do what anyone would do, email the company I purchased my unit from. Now I didn't really expect them to even take the time being that I've had the turbo since 2013, but I told them what had happened and it only has 8500miles. We've exchanged a few emails. They mentioned they would need to look at the turbo to see what happened, I had thanked them for even considering to help me out, but then came a few emails that I have to share with you guys and get some opinions.

    I asked fp that if there was anything they could do and if it is something they may warranty if I could possibly upgrade to a hta red. The weekend past and I finally got a response. They asked me if my catch can setup had a vacuum source... I'm over here like no. I run mine like almost every other setup...2 lines to the catch can from the valve cover. Here is their response...I've attached a screenshot of a email they sent me. So what do you guys think...I don't want to bash on them, but I did follow everything they said, bought everything they recommended but I really just wanted a simple yes we'll help you out or no. I'm possibly going to look into a either a Holset turbo and t3 setup unless they help me out.

    1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg Screenshot_20170320-161738.png
     

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  2. tunernewb92

    tunernewb92 Proven Member

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    The PCV system in this car is super wonky to begin with and temperamental. It is set up for a vacuum source. read here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/the-4g63t-pcv-system.366890/

    That being said, I am assuming they are arguing that its not properly pulling the bad mixture out which means that the oil is "contaminated". However, I don't feel like this would have negative wear on the turbo personally.
     
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  3. gsxeclipse102

    gsxeclipse102 Proven Member

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    Whats your oil pressure? I had similar problems with my fp green. Had to run a restrictor from the high pressure and thick oil. Also switching to 2g oem drain helped. Its bigger then the fp blue line. Catch can debate is endless
     
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  4. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    Yeah, that's a cop out. Unless your motor is junk and you only have 1 3/8 breather hose the pcv is not the issue.

    I would love to see the pcv setup that actually pulls a vacuum on the crankcase on these cars. Especially at boost. I've never ran a real pvc system, just 2 hoses into a jug. Had one turbo smoke just a touch at idle. It was a bad turbine seal.
     
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  5. fabian95tsi

    fabian95tsi Proven Member

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    I've never got around to installing my oil pressure gauge, so I read off the factory pos, but the balance shafts are removed so that may answer it's probably a little high. The fp red inline filter also acts as a .125" restrictor, their recommendation. In all my years in the honda game I've never ran a catch can with a vacuum source or restrictor on any ofc the shelf Garrett turbo I've ever ran. I still have my 50trim garret at 30k miles with minimal shaft play LOL. I don't expect anything free but considering I have under 10k idk. I would hope they would help...maybe Justin will chime in.
     
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  6. Operate

    Operate Proven Member

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    Did you assemble the engine yourself and replace the valve stem seals? this would fill the turbine/O2 housing with oil as well, very similiar to a blown turbo, I have experienced intermittent smoke that progressively got worse depending on oil building up in the head getting past the valve stem seals and into the combustion chambers. Sometimes it would smoke, sometimes it would not it depended on how I drove it until eventually oil was dumping past the valve stem seals, and a compression test would not exactly pin point leaky valve stem seals. It is not uncommon for people to "build" engines and not replace things like valve stem seals etc.. also you said the turbine housing was covered in oil is the oil burning off of the exterior of the turbine housing? The middle exhaust manifold stud can leak oil that will run down the manifold,turbine,exhaust etc. if rtv was not used on that stud.
     
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  7. gsxeclipse102

    gsxeclipse102 Proven Member

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    Justin is the one who suggested i try a restrictor. .075 i believe it was. I know countless people with very high hp builds not running a vacuum source on there catch cans. Like i said its a debate that goes round and round.
     
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  8. fabian95tsi

    fabian95tsi Proven Member

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    The motor when purchased had zero miles, I have an invoice for everything that was replaced, now the motor did sit for a yr before it being installed and when I went in to install my cams the while top end still had oil on all the cam journals, lifters, etc. I was prepared to pull the head because I really thought I had a valve seal problem..but as I pulled the downpipe off a few days ago the dp gasket fell out covered in oil. There is absolutely no sign of oil in my fp manifold, or the valves..just some gunky crap on top of the ports which I think is contributed from running e85. Not sure on that. I pulled the turbine housing off and the back side of the turbine wheel was dripping, but nothing in the manifold itself. Which I would think if the seals were leaking that bad the manifold should also be wet right?
     
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  9. fabian95tsi

    fabian95tsi Proven Member

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    I am still prepared to pull the head if I need to but, seeing as how my green looks I want to start there first, before tearing into a possible perfect working motor. Sucks too because it was such a fun turbo. I really loved it, all I wanted from them was to see if there was anything they would do for me, rebuild, replace, discount on a upgrade. I followed everything they recommend just don't see why it failed at such low miles, and I really dont want to waste money on shipping, or whatever they do when I could use that towards a replacement or something, Like a holset, garrett or something custom.
     
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  10. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    I agree 100%...even has their inline filter so there's zero chance of oil contamination even if the engine were junk. Sounds to me like a way to cover their "guarantee" that the turbo will never fail as a result of oil contamination...well it was getting plenty of clean oil, so the next-best reason it could've failed MUST have been a PCV issue, right? :|

    Even the best PCV system in the world isn't going to make shaft play bad enough to allow the compressor wheel to hit the cover go away.
     
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  11. bling5tatus

    bling5tatus Proven Member

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    They suggested hooking the stock system back up to see if it gets better. Did you try that?

    I'd try it before posting online asking people that have an inherent distrust for FP. You will gain the satisfaction of knowing you've tried every avenue before asking questions and potentially fix the issue yourself and be in the position of coming back here to post a help article for others that may be in a similar situation.
     
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  12. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

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    Probably because he knows the solution they recommended is useless.
     
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  13. gsxeclipse102

    gsxeclipse102 Proven Member

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    Try a restrictor. Its a quick check and may solve your problems. Like i said mine did the same thing.
     
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  14. DetroitStroker

    DetroitStroker Proven Member

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    While hooking up the pcv correctly now won't fix a compressor touching the housing... it is simply better for our application to have a vacuum source for our catch cans.

    Could having it hooked up properly of saved the carnage? That's hard to believe. I am extremely curious to see how they handle it. I would think they'd love for you to upgrade to the hta red.


    Am I mistaken for thinking there's more then 1 symptom with the turbo that would be caused by separate failures? The oil leaking in to the turbine housing is 1 and the compressor touching the housing is another...
     
  15. Silent_White

    Silent_White Proven Member

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    does your catch can have a vent? if it only has 2 connections, one is supposed to go to the valve cover and the other to the turbo inlet pipe (or vented to atmosphere at the very least). if it has no mini air filter on it then you are essentially pressurizing the crank case during boost. This would pressurize the oil return line causing oil to stop flowing to the turbo. oil would also be forced past the seals until one day it blew.

    While under full boost, having slow oil flow to the turbo would cause excessive heat and wear on the journal and thrust bearings (where your side to side play came from). I would be willing to bet that the thrust bearing has discoloration from excessive heat. fixing the catch can issue would prevent future failures, but you still need to rebuild the turbo. This sounds like your fault for hooking up the catch can wrong. hooking them up to a catch can with no vent is the same thing as plugging them both.
     
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  16. bling5tatus

    bling5tatus Proven Member

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    ^^ Hmmm.... that kind of is like what FP said in less words. I think it's kind of funny when people debate with the experts. FP didn't get to where they were by giving people poor advice and building products that fail a lot.
     
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  17. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

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    Uh, I'm no expert but converting the pcv system back to stock in order to fix the car from "smoking like a freight train" at all times is ridiculous. Go look through everyone's profile on this site. You'll find that about 90% of dsmers don't have that vacuum hooked up and even if they did it wouldn't stop clouds of smoke at idle like this guy said is happening.
     
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  18. gsxeclipse102

    gsxeclipse102 Proven Member

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    Some people on here are funny. If you actually check fabians car build pictures you would see the VENTED catch can. Look at all the top drag cars. Boostin performance sheppherd jeff bush. Geuss what no vacuum source to the catch can. The turbo is pushing oil into the turbine because either the drain is too small or clogged(rtv on gaskets) or too much pressure and volume of oil.
     
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  19. bling5tatus

    bling5tatus Proven Member

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    If you have a MAF car you cannot vent your catch can geniuses.... so, no, it's not the "proper" setup for a catch can to vent.

    Also, I doubt most of you talking with authority are not running race cars to the level of the persons you've name dropped. Their cars are very likely torn down and inspected regularly.... which isn't feasible for many DSM owners.
     
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  20. gsxeclipse102

    gsxeclipse102 Proven Member

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    Nobody runs a maf who builds a serious race car. Everyone goes speed density.
     
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  21. gsxeclipse102

    gsxeclipse102 Proven Member

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    Heres where the pcv system came from.

    In 1952, Professor A. J. Haagen-Smit, of the California Institute of Technology at Pasadena, postulated that unburned hydrocarbons were a primary constituent of smog, and that gasoline powered automobiles were a major source of those hydrocarbons. The GM Research Laboratory (led by Dr. Lloyd L. Withrow) discovered in 1958 that the road draft tube was a major source—about half—of the hydrocarbons coming from the automobile. The PCV system thus became the first real vehicle emissions control device.

    Recirculating crank case fumes is only emissions related. whether you suck it back into the motor or vent it to the atmosphere your doing the same thing. Relieving crank case pressure
     
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  22. 91talonts1

    91talonts1 Proven Member

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    While the original intention is for emissions, there are other benefits to a PCV system. One big one is your oil stays much cleaner as alot of blow-by is sucked out of the crankcase. Not really a concern in racing.

    Another thing you'll notice on alot of the big power DSMs, they have alot of crankcase vent. Usually not just a couple -8 lines on the VC. If you don't have enough vent, and the crankcase does become pressurized, what Silent White said is very feasible. That being said I don't see how FP can just make the claim that every setup needs a PCV, as that's not the case.
     
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  23. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

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    The whole point is that the pcv system is not fixing this problem. This guy's car is billowing smoke at all times and that's not getting fixed by hooking up the stock pcv system. I'm no DSM master so educate if me if it will. I don't have any issues with FP, but acting like the TS is an idiot for not jumping on the pcv revert is well...idiotic. It's not going to fix his problem. It's somewhat like going into a auto parts store and the worker comes over to help you, then you immediately realize the guy is going to waste your time, not help you. That's FP's repose. Your turbo blew up? Did you check the air in your tires? Check that first...
     
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  24. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Proven Member

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    Hate all ya want, I run snot tubes with my XH40. Not a single problem with pressure. FP is copping out. A seal failed, it should be taken care of IMO. :idontknow:
     
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  25. Silent_White

    Silent_White Proven Member

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    Yes you can, as long as the catch can is not hooked up to the vac source. You can either run both valve cover lines to a catch can that has a breather and plug the vac line on the intake, or run a catch can without a breather and hookup the vac line on the intake. what op did is fine.

    since op is running a vented catch can then I would say that you simply have a blown seal. what oil were you running and was the return line kinked at all? Did the return line have any coking in it?
     

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