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FP Black surge !? HELP

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DSM4LIFE-AWD

10+ Year Contributor
322
10
Aug 6, 2009
Trois-Rivieres, QC_Canada
Hey guys, I'm out of the dyno and it's been horrible ! :(

I don't know why but my FP Black started to surge under load at 4500-5000rpm. We where at 18psi and it was jumping to 24ish than 18 ... My tuner decided to stop tuning and he said YOUR TURBO IS TOO BIG FOR THE 2.0L. What the f*** is he talking about ?

I called FP Performance and they said it's impossible to get surge at the rpm I'm at ... ? Michael said my motor could be the probleme ... Like timing or whatever but the engine runs great seriously.

I'm running a MVS Tial wg 38mm. My best friend can't stop saying I would cure this by going with a 44. Seriously I don't think because it wasn't creep like I know.

Please guys help me !
 
No he has never tuned my car before ... We only have 3 awd dyno and he has a good reputation ... They are Lachute Performance and mostly work on subaru.

Seriously I was like are you f*ing kidding me ? Than he started pointing my punishment racing o2 with the Tial mvs ...

Last summer it's Gofer here that tuned my car and it was running strong but on a 16g.

Is there any setting in DSMLink that he could have set on my 16g and now it's causing probleme on the Black ? I'm waiting for him to reply the pm I sent ... The guy over there didn't really knew how ecmlink v3 works.
 
I don't have any log :(

I tryed the car at home on the street and it's a disaster ... My value are way too off at idle and the check engine was flashing when trying to go wot ... I don't even know how he was able to get to 5000rpm under load seriously.

My link is still open and it's only a log of idle ...

Wow I never tough it would be like that at Lachute Performance. They came to me last week with big promise and at the end it looks like the dude never saw v3 before. Was always braging about stand alone ecu ... You can look on google they are big in the Subaru game so I tough I could trust them ... I feel so stupid now ...
 
I'm running a MVS Tial wg 38mm. My best friend can't stop saying I would cure this by going with a 44.
Your best friend has no idea what he's talking about. If it's true compressor surge, the wastegate has absolutely nothing to do with it....especially when the surge is happening at a boost level when the wastegate shouldn't even be open yet (assuming you have enough spring to get to your desired boost level). You're talking about two different ends of the turbo- the wastegate's function is to control boost, and that is all.

Something's either grossly wrong with your tune, or your cams are too small / cam timing is off.
 
I can't help but to wonder if it's legitimate compressor surge though, Justin. It does sound to me like it's going to 18psi(which is what his spring is rated at), then going to 24, and dropping down to 18. But after talking with Pat a little more, he heard the tell-tale sound and the symptoms match up.


I'm not the best friend btw. Lol.
 
Like Cracked said we could hear a loud "woush woushh" after a while under load at 5000rpm @ 18psi. When it happened we could see the needle in the boost gauge jump to 24psi than coming right back to 18psi untill the next "woushh" ...

I'm still on stock cam and gear ... My base timing is set at 5btc.

Hahaha I wish you where that best friend cracked cause mine took the side of the tuner and made me look like a jackass LOL ;)
 
Yeah. Honestly I'm with BLACK90TSIAWD over on DSMTalk, I think the tuner didn't know WTF he was doing. He said what Justin said, that your timing is probably too low right where it's surging. Just hearing all the shady stuff though it sounds like he thought he could tune anything but quickly realized Link is drastically different than the OEM Subie ECUs or a standalone.
 
Stock cams with a FP Black?

The stock cams do not have enough effective duration to allow a 50+ lb/min turbo to fill the cylinder with each combustion cycle. The result is the airflow backs up in the intake piping and causes full-throttle compressor surge.

You need cams. Bad. In a sense your tuner is right- the turbo is too big...for the cams, not the engine. ;)
 
Thank you so much Justin and everyone for your time and help !

Looks like I'll be shopping for a set of HKS 272 cam today :)
 
Don't go back to that tuner, I don't think the cams are the issue.

How exactly is your wastegate setup? Being controlled with Link? Using top and bottom ports?

Without pictures and a log................I don't see how you could expect people to diagnose the problem.
 
I don't have any log :(.
Get that log and post it (or send it to me since you had me tune it last time) since that's really the only way to diagnose your problem like TalonSpeed said.

Of course having cams is going to help but stock auto cam'd DSMs are going 10's in the quarter, surely your problem is a tuning issue if you ask me based off the symptoms you're describing.
 
Don't go back to that tuner, I don't think the cams are the issue.

How exactly is your wastegate setup? Being controlled with Link? Using top and bottom ports?

Without pictures and a log................I don't see how you could expect people to diagnose the problem.

The wastegate is on a punishment racing o2 housing, it's a tial 38mm with 18psi spring in it. It's the recirculated one ... Only using a lower port with my Hallman MBC (who was unscrew all the way) and top port unplug just like they say in the instruction. I don't use the water ports on it.

I'd like to post a log but how can I if my check engine start to flash the moment I go WOT ? I can't make it surge like it was doing on the dyno ... I know it's f*ing stupid that I don't have any log of it when it was happening. Don't know why the tuner always clicked start stream, than stop stream ... And as usual my cellphone was dead so no video to show you guys.

I'm willing to pay you Goofer for your service, I like how you work and I liked my car last summer.
 
Remove the boost controller and run wastegate pressure and see how it does

Post an idle log or something! That way we can see how Link is setup. You can post logs and let members here make the adjustments. street tuning with real load and airflow is better than a dyno in my opinion.
 
Thank you very much TalonSpeed, wont be able to post a log tonight since I'm working over time at the shop. I'll try to post something tomorow after work with the mbc removed.

Thanks :)
 
Engine light is flashing cuz of high knock. Either lower your boost till its properly tuned. Or lower your timing so it's not so aggressive. Either way will help you get a good pull so you can get a log for us. Also read up on ecmlink wiki, you need to understand how things work before you make it go boom. Ecmlink is not that hard to figure out and use. You need to take the time to read and learn, trust me it's your best bet!! Why waste money paying some lamo that can't even figure out a simple tuning software. If he's really tuning subies it's not much different than some of there programs. Easier if you ask me LOL also you need to get your idle and cruise dialed in before you even think of trying wot pulls! If gofers willing to tune it I say jump on that LOL, but learn the software bro!
http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/
 
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They're two different ends of the spectrum, I know, but I have an fp green (73hta) on stock cams and a punishment recirculated o2 housing with a 38mm gate. No issues with boost here. I also have the 18 lb springs installed. It spikes to 25 and falls to 18 by the end of a pull. No boost controller installed yet.
 
Small cams do not have enough effective duration to allow a 90+ lb/min turbo to fill the cylinder with each combustion cycle. The result is the airflow backs up in the intake piping and causes full-throttle compressor surge.

You need cams. Bad. In a sense your tuner is right- the turbo is too big...for the cams, not the engine. ;)
You just :aha:light bulbed something for me in my own cars problems, possibly even the spool issues.:hmm: I'm not getting surge though.
 
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How ready for the dyno was your car? Did you do a boost leak test, check base timing, fresh tank of gas, etc?

You can get a log of the CEL flashing, that's what we need a log of, actually. An idle log would be good too.
 
Even if the cams were stock cams, how does excess psi not cause the wastegate to open if boost goes above a set level?
 
They're two different ends of the spectrum, I know, but I have an fp green (73hta) on stock cams and a punishment recirculated o2 housing with a 38mm gate. No issues with boost here. I also have the 18 lb springs installed. It spikes to 25 and falls to 18 by the end of a pull. No boost controller installed yet.
HTA Green is basically a billet 20G; compressor is 52.5/73mm as compared to 59/82mm on the Black. People have run 20G-sized turbos on stock cams for years without issues- not that you couldn't benefit from a cam upgrade. ;)

Even if the cams were stock cams, how does excess psi not cause the wastegate to open if boost goes above a set level?
:confused:

The surge is happening before the wastegate is even opening. Pull the signal line and let the turbo make as much boost as it can and it'll still full-throttle surge at 18+psi if the cam duration is too short.
 
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