e85 with evo 8 injectors

[natertater]

hey everyone! i was wanting to run e85 on my car, since its a little over 2.50 a gallon, and i dont drive the car much. right now i have evo 8 injectors, and a 2g maf sitting in the car. would this be ok to run e85 in there with stock boost? they are roughly 28% larger injectors to compensate for stoich. also, if i were to do the e85, should i keep with the stock 1g MAF (since airflow is right for stock inj) or use the 2g (which leans it out more?)

eventually my plans are hx35, speed density, 3" and e85 on some big mamma injectors, maybe a dual stock fuel pump, or dual 190's

 

[ramsack]

390s are used on 1g automatic turbos. just ignore it.

 

[natertater]

FORGET E85 UNTIL HX35 AND SD/DS-MAP! im just talking straight up crappy 91 pump gas i so-cal now. and im getting ready to rewire my pump this weekend.

yeah i know the 390s, guess he was making a point was all. this got all technical real quick. awesome knowledge here from you all

so a 2g fpr would be somewhat of an upgrade from 1g is what i got from reading other posts. it holds up better to higher pressures and wont leak out or suck like 1g?

 

[ramsack]

ha my bad. I was the one who commented about the 390s because my wrong way of the math matched them and 450s. good luck hopefully it will be a mean setup. I personally would go with e85 right off the bat to run some crazy timing advance over 91 octane.

 

[natertater]

so im getting there! got me an hx35 for 250 shipped! not sure if its 7blade or 8 blade, pics are coming soon before payment made. next big steps before that puppy goes on car is ostrich and exhaust and what not. so putting a 2g fpr on 1g rail will improve lower flow correct? higher base pressure. can we say, hello e85 again? hopefully car is done before years end...go on deployment beginning next year.

 

[gofer]

so im getting there! got me an hx35 for 250 shipped! not sure if its 7blade or 8 blade, pics are coming soon before payment made. next big steps before that puppy goes on car is ostrich and exhaust and what not. so putting a 2g fpr on 1g rail will improve lower flow correct? higher base pressure. can we say, hello e85 again? hopefully car is done before years end...go on deployment beginning next year.

The 1g rail is the same, just a tad shorter than the 2g rail so if you install a afpr the -AN fittings will clear the timing belt cover. Your cars still a 2g so you'll want to ALWAYS run 43.5psi for a base fp unless your trying to get a little more flow out of your injectors to keep IDC's down at WOT. Evo injectors will still and ALWAYS be too small to run E85 unless you run a t25?

 

[natertater]

no my car is a 1g...and i was wanting to raise from the 37 to 43...

 

[gofer]

no my car is a 1g...and i was wanting to raise from the 37 to 43...

My bad, I read your post wrong... I thought you were running a 2g rail because you were saying that it flowed better. Anyway, I know you've got a lot of stuff planned to put on this car but the HX35 will push too much to run those Evo injectors on just 91 octane.

 

[natertater]

yeah i know, i was shopping on other forums, and found a good decent hx35, 66-75k miles, tight shafts, no play for 250 shipped. not too bad! i cant wait to get 1050's and e85. so since e85 is lighter (it is, isnt it?) would a 255 actually pump slightly more, since its rated at specific gravity for gasoline? i shouldnt have fell asleep in chemistry class so much...or stared at the hot cheerleader chicks butt across the class...

 

[ramsack]

gasoline's density is .7197 g/cm³ and ethanols density is 0.789 g/cm³.

 

[natertater]

so its heavier . or just more dense... anyways, would a 2g fpr be benefical to a 1g at all? i know the lines wouldnt be in stock location, i would have to mod some stuff for that, but if im getting jackal/ostrich and i could reprogram the fpr to compensate for parts, would it be an upgrade, or just leave what i have?

 

[JayRolla]

1g's have stronger fuel pressure regulators and can usually take a 255lph HP with no issue. I have ran a 255 for years on a stock fuel pressure regulator and have never had it overrun.

 

[ramsack]

here we go again with overrun. some say the regulators overrun, some say they don't. i have had several 1g regulators overrun on my 255 HP. and it got even worse after i rewired it. so it's up to you if you want to get a stock one, and then have it overrun, and keep trying different stock ones, or get an AFPR. overrun would be worse with e85 also, being more dense.

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that is what causes overrun. the body is 0.196" in diameter, and the hole is something around 0.085" just a little over 1/16". this orifice alone cannot flow enough fuel back that a 255 HP is pumping at it, muchless the other innerworkings of the FPR adding pressure.

 

[natertater]

would an upgraded return line fix that issue?

 

[ramsack]

no the return line is 1/4" OD. plenty to flow back to the tank. that little piece is inside the regulator itself.

 

[natertater]

so would a 2g fpr fix that issue, or mod my 1g fpr?

 

[ramsack]

as i said it's up to you what you want to do, if you want to try stock ones, and possibly keep failing on overrun, or mod one, and not have 1:1 possibly, or just get an AFPR that won't overrun and will be 1:1.

 

[natertater]

whats the cheapest good afpr?

 

[ramsack]

any kit from a vendor with an aem, aeromotive, or fuelab should be good. you gotta shop around for what you want. and make sure the regulator specs offer you the low range of the fuel pressure you'll be shooting for.

 

[natertater]

yeah i will do that. i just scored me a big h1c for 120 shipped. time to put it to good use! i am supposing i will need at least 1050s just to run any decent power out of this thing with e85. looking to run about 25psi boost. any suggestions for good ball/seat injectors? i was thinking PTE or maybe RC.

 

[gofer]

FIC's or FIC bluemax's are the injectors I suggest, since they actually flow what they're advertised at. 1050's on E85 with that turbo will be right at the limit, any smaller and your IDC's will be too high.

 

[frankenstein406]

the 1g fpr is better then the 2g. You could get a evo one as a upgrade tho. Also your gonna want to upgrade the line from the filter to rail to -6an line and fittings.

 

[gofer]

the 1g fpr is better then the 2g. You could get a evo one as a upgrade tho. Also your gonna want to upgrade the line from the filter to rail to -6an line and fittings.

The Evo fpr cannot be ran since its controlled by the Evo ECU, the reason WHY we cannot run these. It would be handy though since it wouldn't be over run by the 255 fuel pump, believe me I already tried this.

Please explain why you need to upgrade the line to a -6AN from the filter to the rail? I've been running mine on ALL my stock fuel lines, even the 13yr old OEM fuel filter for the last 3 months and my IDC's and fuel pressure are all solid.

You can spend as much money on SS braided fuel line and AN fittings you want but if your going for a mild turbo setup and running E85 your stock fuel rail/lines will suffice.

 

[ramsack]

i agree the rail will suffice, it's bigger bore than the aem which claims it can support 1000 hp. but the stock line sucks and why make the pump work harder than it has to? same goes for the filter. if you got a fuel lab one you spend a good amount in the first place, but after that the filter elements are far cheaper than replacing a oem one. and one doesn't have to get ss braided crap with AN fittings, you can just get good lengths of bigger 3/8 hard line at a parts store for really cheap.

it's wise to build everything else for more power than you intend rather than run out of resources and go boom if something goes wrong.

 

[90gst_sean]

The b16g does push a lot more air but he's also running 91oct, your talking about using E85 though. Regular gasoline's STOICH AFR is 14.7:1 while E85's STOICH AFR is 9.8:1, so E85 requires 49% more fuel going to the motor. Injectors are flow rated for gasoline running a 14.7:1 AFR, but your running E85 which is a 9.8:1 AFR so you take (14.7 / 9.8 = 1.5). Stock Evo VIII injectors are flow rated at 560cc on gasoline, your running E85 though... so take ( 560 / 1.5 = 373.3) that means your Evo VIII injectors are going to flow like a 373cc injector on E85 which will be at 100% IDC's at just 21.8lbs/min.

I know thats a lot of math but thats how you figure E85 flow rates on injectors since they are rated on gasoline.

(Injector size / 1.5 = E85 flow rate)

Well said! You too Gofer; you're guys' posts are excellent.... Now for \/\/\/ this guy...

This thread sucks. People have been using 550s and 560s coupled with a 2g mas for YEARS, myself included.

As for, "will X injector handle X psi?" - those questions are nonsense. Think about a stock car running 15psi, then take that same car and add an intake, a fmic with pipes, cams, and a full 3" exhaust, but still running 15psi. Which setup do you think will have more air flowing into and out-of the motor? More air means you need more fuel, this is how more HP is made.

Injectors are rated by airflow, not psi. 560s, a 2g mas, and a 190 fuel pump will work just fine. And for reference regarding fuel pumps, injectors and airflow, check out the link below.


http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tun...uel-pumps.html?highlight=injectors+fuel+pumps

Just stop talking...

Injector ratings between 1g's and 2g's in a pita. You can't explain two years of DSM tuning and knowhow in a single post, or even a single thread for that matter. I cringed when we started talking about 1g fuel pressure...

Lets just stick to the basics and let the guy research for the rest.... and, yes, it is perfectly acceptable to suggest injector size to someone based on their turbo choice and their turbo choice alone; if he was running cams at his current capability he'd do better to be reading threads like this instead of typing in them.

Average DSM set-up: 14b = 550''s , 16g = 650's and from the sound of it multiply these injector numbers by 1.5 to run E85. If you're running dsmlink, go big or go home... within future upgrade paths of coarse. Like 850's or 950's IMO.

P.S. When replacing the stock FPR purchase an aftermarket one... i.e. adjustable one.

 

[habitatguy187]

Injector ratings between 1g's and 2g's in a pita. You can't explain two years of DSM tuning and knowhow in a single post, or even a single thread for that matter. I cringed when we started talking about 1g fuel pressure...

I have no idea what you're trying to say.