e85 with evo 8 injectors

Posted by natertater, Apr 19, 2010
Newbie Forum - Beginner/newbie/general DSM modification questions. First mods, how to run 10's when you haven't run 12's yet, any tech question that doesn't fit in another tech forum.

  1. natertater

    natertater Proven Member

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    san diego, California
    hey everyone! i was wanting to run e85 on my car, since its a little over 2.50 a gallon, and i dont drive the car much. right now i have evo 8 injectors, and a 2g maf sitting in the car. would this be ok to run e85 in there with stock boost? they are roughly 28% larger injectors to compensate for stoich. also, if i were to do the e85, should i keep with the stock 1g MAF (since airflow is right for stock inj) or use the 2g (which leans it out more?)

    eventually my plans are hx35, speed density, 3" and e85 on some big mamma injectors, maybe a dual stock fuel pump, or dual 190's:hellyeah:
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2010
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  2. gofer

    gofer Moderator

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    E85 is actually under $2.50 ga. ($2.49 :p) out here... If your running your stock 14b its still flowing more than 25 lbs/min (30 lbs/min to be exact) even around stock boost levels, which is still too much for those Evo injectors. I suggest running the IM that is designed for the head thats currently on your car i.e. 6-bolt head, 1g IM / 7-bolt head, 2g IM or Evo III IM.

    Good plans but thats a long ways down the road big guy.

    :dsm:
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  3. natertater

    natertater Proven Member

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    san diego, California
    my bad, fixed my mistake in post. i meant maf, not intake. so evo injectors, stock boost, and 2g isnt good idea with e85? i need to get me a wideband soon!!
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  4. gofer

    gofer Moderator

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    South Gilbert, Arizona
    I have a 2g MAF you can get off me for cheap, I'll hook it up for a Navy guy like myself. :thumb: Just PM me.

    Evo injectors are going to be TOO SMALL to run on your 14b turbo, you won't be able to get enough fuel to the motor even at stock boost. You'll want to run 660's MINIMUM on a 14b/E85 setup, I have a set in my closet as well. :D

    The 1g/2g intake manifold has nothing to do with the E85 rich/lean or whatever the hell you mentioned in your OP. The intake runners on your head are ported to the size of the runners on your intake manifold. You have a 6-bolt motor which has bigger intake runners, if you put a 2g IM on it its going to be a small runner going into the bigger runners on your head... WHY? Thats retarded. If your still set on running a 2g IM on your 6-bolt head guess what, I have one of those in my closet too. :sneaky:

    On top of all this your going to need a walbro 255 fuel pump (fp) and an adjustable fuel pressure regulater (afpr) to run E85 if you don't already have them.

    :dsm:
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  5. JayRolla

    JayRolla Proven Member

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    Not a good idea IMO. First off get a wbo2 before thinking about doing any kind of setup like that. If AFR's are good at closed loop and WOT then you will be fine. But be carefull doing such a setup.
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  6. FastJetta

    FastJetta Proven Member

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    e85 is awesome...

    do what it takes to make the swap... like he said.

    wally pump, bigger injector and a wideband. maybe something to tune :)
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  7. natertater

    natertater Proven Member

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    san diego, California
    no, i plan on running my 1g im, i meant my 2g intake PIPE from turbo to 2g maf. i have everyhting else still there. so i would need 50% larger injectors instead of 30% more? yeah when i get more money, im getting an LC-1 and gauge. i want a g5, but that is like 50 dollars more than g1 digi readout. oh well, later
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  8. bob123131

    bob123131 Proven Member

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    No you don't need 50 percent larger,and 30 percent larger is a conservative estimate for the most part, but still pretty close. Think about it like this with bolts on if you push the 14b you can outflow the 450cc's by a little. So you would need 620cc just to push the 14b like stock let alone any more. Depending on your goals just get some high 800's or somehting a little below a 1000 still allows relatively easy tune ability with the right tuning software and is enough if you go up to an evo3 16g or t28.

    Also dual stock pumps wil not have a chance to flow e85 with a h35. Even if you have the 8 blade and not 7 blade you wont have enough. The dual 190's would ###### be sufficient for the 8 blade and pushing the limits of the 7 blade. You have to understand that turbo flows 53-60lb/min and im assuming at the point of a setup like that you will be pushing it.
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  9. natertater

    natertater Proven Member

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    san diego, California
    ok, sticking with gas, how much boost could evo 8 injectors allow for? i was guessing around 15 or 16psi. i read on here a guy was running 18psi just fine on 450cc with a 190. i deff plan on rewiring my stuff, a little too late tonight to start it...

    also on 3si, i seen that evo 8 560cc flow more or so around 600-625. still too small for the fun i want to have, but to just straight up run 15psi on e85 should be fine right?
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2010
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  10. RedEyeBanDiT

    RedEyeBanDiT Proven Member

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    I have a 190 with evo8 injectors, on a big16g running 21 lbs. They are about maxed out.
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  11. natertater

    natertater Proven Member

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    on gas? damn... so i should sell these...didnt even really use them much, just put them in about week and half ago...but then again, thats a b16g, moves a lot more air than my little 14b
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  12. gofer

    gofer Moderator

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    South Gilbert, Arizona
    The b16g does push a lot more air but he's also running 91oct, your talking about using E85 though. Regular gasoline's STOICH AFR is 14.7:1 while E85's STOICH AFR is 9.8:1, so E85 requires 49% more fuel going to the motor. Injectors are flow rated for gasoline running a 14.7:1 AFR, but your running E85 which is a 9.8:1 AFR so you take (14.7 / 9.8 = 1.5). Stock Evo VIII injectors are flow rated at 560cc on gasoline, your running E85 though... so take ( 560 / 1.5 = 373.3) that means your Evo VIII injectors are going to flow like a 373cc injector on E85 which will be at 100% IDC's at just 21.8lbs/min.

    I know thats a lot of math but thats how you figure E85 flow rates on injectors since they are rated on gasoline.

    (Injector size / 1.5 = E85 flow rate)

    :dsm:
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  13. jrohner

    jrohner Proven Member

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    You'll need something to tune with. If you run stock with the Evo injectors and E85, you'll be lean. If you run the 2G MAS you'll be leaner yet. You need 650's to run E85 with no tuning.
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  14. natertater

    natertater Proven Member

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    alright, so i will shoot for gas on evos then for now. sucks trying to hook up 2g maf to 1g intake pipe, but i have a frozen boost coupler that does the job for now. cant wait for sd adn ostrich...just gotta wait for more money, like in october...stupid waiting for srb....
    #14
  15. ramsack

    ramsack Banned Member

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    the 1g 450cc injectors at stock fuel pressure are really 380cc. so if you are going to run the 36.3 psi stock pressure, you will need something like 680s. if you run what injectors are rated for (43.5 psi) then you may get away with 550s and bumping up fuel pressure a bit (2-3 psi). you definitely want a better pump though. i wouldn't run the 2g mas unless you have something like dsmlink that will let you not mess with timing to compensate. you will be throwing more timing advance into the mix. you could try messing around with it but it's not a set amount change in signal over the entire airflow range.
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  16. JayRolla

    JayRolla Proven Member

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    1g injectors are rated at 450 even at 38psi fuel pressure.
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  17. natertater

    natertater Proven Member

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    san diego, California
    and when boost raises, fuel pressure goes up 1:1 as well. but yes, i understand all these things. right now its 560cc injectors with a 2g maf hooked up (but not fully plumbed) and i dont drive this car, as it has no front bumper for passy fender.
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  18. ramsack

    ramsack Banned Member

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    denso or whoever makes them rates them at 43.5 psi (3 bar) like all other injectors and manufacturers. doesn't it strike you odd that the 380 @ 42.7 psi calculate to the nearly same as 450s @ 36.3 psi? i have 2g 450s in my car, and my fuel pressure is about 42-44 base (fpr overrun), and 43.5 is what the 2g are rated at 450 for, and my car runs rich as sh** because of that.

    take a stock 1g, put a 43.5 regulator on it, and tune it somehow for added fuel, and you already have an upgraded fuel system.
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  19. natertater

    natertater Proven Member

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    san diego, California
    so if i take a 2g fpr and pop it on there, with evo8 injectors i will be fine for 18psi, i plan on getting ostrich and wideband shortly here. you can plug narrowband sim wire into ecu where normal nb went right? i have seen someone talk about it on here, but just making sure.
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  20. ramsack

    ramsack Banned Member

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    well if you're going that route i would get something like 680s. if you're getting an ostrich, you could try ds-map and not have to deal with a mafs at all.

    my bad, a 450cc injector down to 36.3 psi will be 411cc. a 390cc down to 42.7 will be 386cc. i don't understand why there's a square root in the equation for that. so 550s for e85 is wrong. if 1g pressure was 43.5, then my calculations would be correct. 14.7 / 9.76 = 1.5, 1.5 * 450 is 675. a 680 injector @ 43.5 would be plenty since the 1g injector is really a 411cc. it wouldn't hurt to go even higher since you want 18psi of boost. also note that you shouldn't have problems controlling idle with big injectors because you are not trying to make huge injectors idle gasoline. you are making big injectors idle a fuel that injects more volume per air than gas, so in turn adding fuel across the board.
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  21. habitatguy187

    habitatguy187 Proven Member

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    This thread sucks. People have been using 550s and 560s coupled with a 2g mas for YEARS, myself included.

    As for, "will X injector handle X psi?" - those questions are nonsense. Think about a stock car running 15psi, then take that same car and add an intake, a fmic with pipes, cams, and a full 3" exhaust, but still running 15psi. Which setup do you think will have more air flowing into and out-of the motor? More air means you need more fuel, this is how more HP is made.

    Injectors are rated by airflow, not psi. 560s, a 2g mas, and a 190 fuel pump will work just fine. And for reference regarding fuel pumps, injectors and airflow, check out the link below.


    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tun...uel-pumps.html?highlight=injectors fuel pumps
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  22. natertater

    natertater Proven Member

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    san diego, California
    i have been reading that long before. yes my plan eventually is to run sd with jackal/ds-map setup. so what i am asking is, 14b at 18psi, evo 8 injectors, 2g maf (compensating for evo injectors) and logger cable on way should be good enough for now right?
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  23. habitatguy187

    habitatguy187 Proven Member

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    Indianapolis, Indiana
    I ran 18psi on my 14b with a re-wired stock fuel pump and logger. But PSI HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! I had a stock exhaust, intake, IC, and IC pipes still.

    As long as you're not knocking, you're fine.
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  24. ramsack

    ramsack Banned Member

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    we are talking about fuel pressure psi, not boost psi. injectors are rated at fuel flow in cc/min or lb/hour @ 43.5 psi. injectors are blind to the airflow in an engine and are controlled by the ecu. calculating what size injector you need is based on hp, duty cycle, fuel pressure, and brake specific fuel consumption. hp is energy, and gasoline contains a certain amount of energy.

    yes you are right about adding airflow with mods, and needing more fuel, but i don't see what you're getting at. he's asking about running e85, a 2g mas, and injector size. e85 requires roughly 1.5 times more fuel per same amount of air than gasoline.

    no, you will not be fine with that setup for e85. you are taking out fuel with the 2g mas to compensate for the injectors, when you should be adding fuel. this would be FINE for pump gas except the 18psi on a 14b. you might tend to knock then (especially because of the 2g mas taking out fuel and the car adding timing advance because it thinks there is less load.) you would probably get away with it on e85 (need way bigger injectors still!) or a fmic possibly.
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  25. natertater

    natertater Proven Member

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    yeah and it was your post that led me to that, and you had stock injectors in as well. ok getting somewhere. and i have no idea where that guy came up with 390cc at all a few posts up...
    #25

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