2G Crank but no start after head rebuild

Posted by ishnish, Nov 9, 2017

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  1. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    Hey guys, so I finally completed my head rebuild on my car. It's sat for four years and I finally got it back and had the funds to do these things. I should be posting up a build profile soon as well. Anyway, everything went great with it and I double, triple, even quadruple checked things to make sure I wouldn't have any regrets. I'm ocd about perfectionism and on top of that this was my first time ever pulling apart things on a car so I took every safety measure possible to make for the smoothest process.

    Yesterday, I finally got everything buttoned up, put fluids in, and then cranked her up the first time in 4 years. Cranked a bit to prime the pump first with some electrical connections disconnected. Then plugged it all back and cranked it to start. Nothing but just cranks. Any idea what it could be?

    So my checklist is as follows:

    - I checked to make sure the pump was working. Through ecmlink I was able to activate the fuel pump and it was functioning just fine.

    - The fuel filter was replaced with a new oem one.

    - I did undo the return line at the end of the fuel rail and it for sure had pressure as fuel started to squirt out before I could even fully loosen the second bolt holding the fpr.

    - spark plugs and wires were brand new. Checked to see if the car was firing by checking the spark plug end of the wires. It was.

    - I made sure NUMEROUS times that my car was times perfectly correct. I took every precaution to check the marks and they were correct, I even counted the teeth of the old timing belt and set the new one exactly the same and held it down with zip ties, wrapped the rest around the.other lower sprockets, and when I tensioned the belt, everything sat correct. Nothing was off a tooth.

    - It definitely SOUNDS like it's getting compression. I have no sure way of checking because I don't have the tools to check. But anyway, the car had perfect compression on all four cylinders when I first stopped driving it. It was never an issue.

    - I plugged in ecmlink and I have no CELs. Everything is fine.

    - I verified that the CAS is sitting correctly for sure.

    - Messed with the spark plug wiring orders by using the order I had last which is the EPROM ecu order and then the stock 2g order. Both did the exact same thing, just caused the car to crank the same way. No difference.

    What wasn't checked yet :

    - I guess you can add compression on the list because I never checked as of now because I have no way of doing so. A mechanic I knew checked it a couple of years back when I stopped driving it and said it was perfect though. That's all I can go by. I'm just positive that isn't it though. It even sounds like it when the car cranks .It sounds like it really wants to start but just wont.

    - I am not able to pull the spark plugs and see if they are wet with fuel on the bottom because I was borrowing spark plug removal sockets and I don't have access to them anymore.

    Some extra notes:

    Because I mentioned that the car sat for some years, I did drain the gas tank and ran the fuel pump until all the fuel came out. It got to the point where it would only very occasionally have pulses of very little fuel coming out so I stopped it at that point because I figured that's enough and it was practically empty. Is it possible that the car is still using that old fuel? I put in two gallons of new fuel and I would think it's enough to dilute the old fuel (whatever little is left of it if any at all). The thing is, I did not drop the fuel tank and clean it out and all that. I really didn't think it'd be necessary and don't have the tools needed to do so. I have to work on my car outside because I don't have a garage and only jackstands that I borrowed and a floorjack.

    I also plugged in ecmlink while cranking and logged it. Everything was practically flat on the graph other than just the injectors which were pulsing. The injector duty cycle was 3.5%. Should it have been higher??

    I'm honestly stumped guys. I'll try remembering any extra details that I left out but any ideas as to what's wrong?

    Thank you so much
     

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    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  2. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    I feel it's only fair to add the modifications I've added or new parts added since my rebuild in case that may have anything to do with it:

    New parts:

    - FP manifold
    - Evo 3 intake Mani
    - 1g nt tb rebuilt (FIAV bypass installed)
    - Spark plugs (BPR6ES)
    - New spark plug wires
    - New oem fuel filter
    - evo 9 springs/retainers

    Old mods:
    - Fuel pump rewire
    - battery relocated to trunk
    - boost/water temp/oil temp/oil pressure gauges
    - ECMLink v3
    - Punishment Racing intercooler
    - 1g bov
    - Evo3 16g

    I think that's the most relevant to add as the rest is just basics things like all new OEM timing belts, tensioners pulleys, waterpump, motor mount, etc. As these don't really have an effect on my car starting, I feel like it may not be as important to mention.
     
  3. steve

    steve DSM Wiseman

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    Post your DSMLink log, please.
     
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  4. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    Thank you for your response! I am at work currently but will post it as soon as I get home. I have to first find out how. Thank you
     
  5. chrysler kid

    chrysler kid Proven Member

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    Prime the fuel pump. Turn the key to the on position, the click before you turn it to hit the starter. Wait for 5 seconds, and then turn the key off. Do that 5 times, and on the 6th time after 5 seconds start the car. That should be enough to bleed the pump if that is the issue
     
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  6. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    Two gallons is not much if thats all that you have in the tank, that being said though, you should log your coolant temp sensor to be sure that its reading a reasonable temp, have you tried switching the plug wires on the coils? maybe you have them backwards. Your spark plugs are likely soaked by now if it hasnt started and has been injecting fuel on them, pull them and get new or known good ones, you can borrow a compression tester from most of the box parts stores if you leave a small deposit and you get it back when you return the tester, no matter how sure you are on things, I strongly suggest a compression test just to ease minds at this point.
     
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  7. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    Pump was bled and still no start.

    I messed with the spark plug wires wiring order and for some odd reason the stock 2g wiring order worked but before that (Four years ago) it was the EPROM order that worked being that I am running an EPROM ecu. So really weird that switching it to the stock order happen to work better than the order it was intended to be running an Eprom. Spark plugs were dry. I was able to pull them out. So I think fuel ended up being the problem. Well actually.. It was a bit deeper than that.

    I had a buddy come over and check over all my electrical connections which checked out perfect. After 2 hours of testing things, he finally went home and then called me explaining that it MIGHT be the ecu because our cars (being so old) commonly have problems with leaking caps from the ecu. I pulled out the ecu and lo and behold:

    Not sure if you're picture is detailed enough, but anyway, I'm pretty positive this is the problem. I used my buddy's black box ecu to start my car and it worked but only idled for 2 seconds or so since that box was tuned for 1050cc injectors. So I've sent an email to ecmlink to ask if this is something that is fixable and for a quote if it is. If the pics aren't detailed enough I'll send it in but I figure I can at least try to find out whether it'll be worth trying to fix or just getting a new one.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    I apologize, photobucket apparently sucks now! Just my luck. I can try to figure out a way of posting pics but don't know if it'll happen. Either way, you get the idea.
     
  9. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    Got it!

    20170511_173812.jpg 20170511_173827.jpg
     
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  10. steve

    steve DSM Wiseman

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    Your capacitors have been changed. Looks like they used alcohol to remove the conformal coating and that leaves a whiteish mess.

    You said that you could talk to the ECU with your DSMLink, so it's not dead but that log would help to see what's going on.
     
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  11. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    The last time my ecu was messed with was when the people at ecmlink socketed my ecu. After that it has been untouched. Do you see issues with the ecu at all?

    I'm sorry it's very hard.to get a laptop in order to post the log. I will as soon as I can. The battery on my girlfriend's laptop dies so fast
     
  12. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Proven Member

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    You need a 100' extension cord :sneaky: :p
    I don't see any thing that stands out bad.
     
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  13. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    Lol I think that's what I'll have to do. Really? Man I'm stumped. It's so weird, it cranked right up and started with the other ecu. Even though it was maybe for only 2 seconds, it did start.
     
  14. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Proven Member

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    Visual and physical testing with the proper equipment are two different things. If it started with one (but it was a different style ecu) but doesn't with yours then I would be sending it to be examined. The other ecu doesn't change the firing order or anything else does it? Those are what I would make sure of before sending it in.
    Get a log before anything if possible.
     
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  15. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    Yeah apparently getting a log is the best way to go. The other ecu does not change the firing order. It was only tuned for much larger injectors. I'm not sure if that would cause my car to die or only idle roughly. Because my car only idled for 2 seconds or so then died.

    So my log would basically consist of just me cranking the car. Any ideas as to what values to capture when doing this? I want to make this log as useful as possible. And don't wanna have to repeat doing numerous logs if I don't have to.
     
  16. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Proven Member

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    If it will just connect to your ECU, then start a log with the key on of course. Let it log for 10 seconds, press the gas pedal all the way to the floor and then let off during that time so we can see the tps is set properly. I do that everytime I do a log, before I start the car. :thumb:
     
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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

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    14b   automatic
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.620 @ 108.460 MPH
    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    13.612 @ 107.760 MPH
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  17. chrysler kid

    chrysler kid Proven Member

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    Wait, you're running an eprom 95 ecu and a 97+ cam sensor. Isn't the sensor suppose to be 180 degrees out to simulate the 95 cam sensor?
     
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  18. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    Is it??? I have NO idea if that's how it is supposed to be. I'm gonna have to look into this.. I've never even considered this or read into it.
     
  19. chrysler kid

    chrysler kid Proven Member

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    You have to set cam inversion in dsmlink in the ecu to change the 97+ cas to work with the ecu. Then you have to change the firing order. I think you could mechanically flip the sensor and have the same effect, the 95 ecu is suppose to see the signal inverted compared to how the 97 sensor sees it

    http://www.dsmlink.com/wiki/swapplugwires
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  20. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    Okay, this is really weird. What I have on link is the "Use non-95/96 style cam angle sensor" box check marked. This means that my wiring order SHOULD be 2g swapped wire routing, correct?

    Tell me why my car wouldn't start at all when trying to crank it on my ecu (spraying brake cleaner into the intake) but when swapping those wires to the stock order, it actually tried to start up and did for maybe a split second. Lost.

    It even made a backfiring sound when I was on the wired routing for using an EPROM ecu (95) on my stock 99 CAS
     
  21. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    As promised: Here is a log I just did on my car. I hope I have all the values necessary so you all can see what's going on. Again, this is me just cranking the car over twice since it would not start.
     

    Attached Files:

  22. chrysler kid

    chrysler kid Proven Member

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    Coil order should be 3214.

    Not sure about the log, never used link.
     
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  23. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    Honestly I'm telling you that only made it worse. I have no idea why..
     
  24. steve

    steve DSM Wiseman

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    First, charge your battery. It's dropping to below 8v during cranking.

    What injectors do you have in it? The ECU is configured for stock injectors.
    Your idle position switch isn't working but that shouldn't keep it from starting. The TPS voltage with the throttle closed is high (0.78v) which would jive with the IPS not closing.
     
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  25. ishnish

    ishnish Proven Member

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    Battery only got like that because of the constant cranking from trying to start it and diagnose if the past few days. But I got a hold of a trickle charger from a friend so will be charging it today.

    I have stock injectors currently. I'll check on the idle position switch. I switched out my throttle body to an nt tb and not sure if I don't have it or not. I'll update with more today
     

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